Syladin

[Fullmetalyoyo]

56 minutes ago, Ookla said:

I think you're right about the representation aspect, but I'm not sure about Shalladin. Shallan is already married, after all. Then again, if Adolin were to die...

But even then I'm not sure it would work. There may be other plans for Kaladin and Syl. 

I just meant that I expect Syladin to end with the same result that we've had with Shalladin (so far). That is, they get a couple of semi romantic moments but ultimately never have an actual romance.

I'll probably be happy with however it goes as long as Syl doesn't die. Mine and Kaladin's emotional state would be permanently wrecked.

[Ookla she/her]

2 hours ago, Fullmetalyoyo said:

I just meant that I expect Syladin to end with the same result that we've had with Shalladin (so far). That is, they get a couple of semi romantic moments but ultimately never have an actual romance.

I'll probably be happy with however it goes as long as Syl doesn't die. Mine and Kaladin's emotional state would be permanently wrecked.

Ah, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding; it's been a long day. Thanks for clarifying!

[bmcclure7]

On 8/8/2024 at 10:58 AM, GudThymes said:

I have not said that though. You think I'm saying that and I'm not. I'm saying that it cheapens their relationship as an example of a platonic relationship in media. Not the actual depiction of their relationship.

To your point about shallan and pattern, I think having a male character be the human, not the magic, is a better example of what I mean about the trope. It feels less relevant when the human is female and the magic is male.

I will ask you for the third time now. What value does making Kal and Syl's relationship romantic bring? As far as I can tell people only like the idea because they think it can fit. I think it is a better story and example to keep it platonic, we can disagree on that but I want to know what value you think it would bring.

Well, here’s some reasons I’ve come up with.
 

1. Because who cares if it’s a trope if it works, it works if they work as a couple who cares if there’s a trope outside of the context of the story that you don’t like I mean, isn’t the whole point of immersing yourself in a story to forget about the outside stuff. Isn’t it that why we read?

2. relationships don’t stay stagnant they evolve change. And you said yourself there are as close as people can be so there’s only one other way. The relationship can evolve one step they haven’t taken. So it only makes sense to go in that direction

3. This may just be me, but I feel like representation should come secondary to what works for the story and the characters. And romantic relationship feels natural. Why not do it? There can be other ways for you to scratch the itch of needing platonic representation . New characters can be introduced if necessary. 

4. Because it would allow us to explore a kind of relationship relationship between human and spren that we have never seen before. we have steam coworkers, friends, teachers, and students. But as of yet we have yet to see what a spren and human romantic pair.

 

5. Because bringing a third person into their relationship would cheap in it. If we saw other woman enter Kal’s life and them draw closer together than syl would inevitably come become a third wheel. This would cheap in their relationship. 

 

 

On 8/8/2024 at 9:38 PM, GudThymes said:

So the trope isn't a thing in real life. Straight men and women can be close friends without one of them developing feelings. Many people don't think that though. The reason why the trope is damaging to men is that it reinforces that belief. I want to stay away from the common conversation around it but there truly is a loneliness epidemic among men, and simultaneously there is a problem with men coming into their female friends without it being reciprocated. The value of a platonic relationship is that it staves off feelings of loneliness without having additional complications that romantic relationships do have. Combatting the belief/idea/trope could help people.

Having an example of a man and woman (yes Syl is magic not really a woman) that have an incredibly close relationship that isn't romantic would be helpful to combat that belief/trope.

I hope that helps explain my line of reasoning.

I disagree with you about why we should read books and I'll leave it at that.

I know I shouldn’t post twice, but I did want to answer this as a man myself. I don’t see how I could possibly ever be damaged by two fictional people having a relationship, no matter how trophy or cliché it is. 

 

Well, I personally believe men and women can be friends platonically. I don’t see how someone’s disbelief in this possibly hurts me in anyway. 
 

I will say it as a man I don’t think the solution to the male loneliness epidemic is for us all to become platonic friends. I mean, if you want platonic friends, you could have platonic male friends you don’t need platonic women friends.  Men are not coming onto women because they want platonic friendship. And to act like simply encouraging men to only have platonic relationships with women, somehow satisfy male loneliness is absurd. If a male is wants a girlfriend or some other romantic partner no amount of platonic friendship is going to scratch that itch. I say this as a man myself who knows from experience. Who was for a long time lonely. 
 

Regardless I don’t see how sly and Kal’s platonic or romantic relationship at all impact this. I think you strongly overestimating the impact of the relationships. Status of two fictional characters will have on the world.
 

 

 

 

Edited August 21 by bmcclure7

[Fullmetalyoyo]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

5. Because bringing a third person into their relationship would cheap in it. If we saw other woman enter Kal’s life and them draw closer together than syl would inevitably come become a third wheel. This would cheap in their relationship. 

Maya/Adolin are catching some serious splash damage with this one. They have one of my favorite relationships in the Cosmere and it's not at all cheapened by Adolin having an entire wife.

 

Re:male loneliness epidemic stuff, yes, if the only reason guys can think of to talk to women is that they might get a girlfriend, and platonic relationships don't make them less lonely because they can only be emotionally vulnerable with someone they're sleeping with, that DOES sound like a recipe for misery! Fortunately, both of those can be solved without having to be in a relationship.

[bmcclure7]

On 8/21/2024 at 8:06 AM, Fullmetalyoyo said:

Maya/Adolin are catching some serious splash damage with this one. They have one of my favorite relationships in the Cosmere and it's not at all cheapened by Adolin having an entire wife.

 

Re:male loneliness epidemic stuff, yes, if the only reason guys can think of to talk to women is that they might get a girlfriend, and platonic relationships don't make them less lonely because they can only be emotionally vulnerable with someone they're sleeping with, that DOES sound like a recipe for misery! Fortunately, both of those can be solved without having to be in a relationship.

Maya and Adolin aren’t as close as syl and kal. they’re close but syl and kal as has already been established, are as close as two people can be. 

 

As someone who has at one time did not had friends or a girlfriend and who now has both let me just say that there are two types of loneliness.

There is the type of loneliness that Longing for friends, and a type of loneliness that is longing for a romantic partner.  I’m all for supporting people wanting friends be they male friends or female friends. Friends are a good thing. Trust me. However, you shouldn’t pretend like having friends is substitute for having a romantic relationship. It’s a different kind of thing. They may be some overlap for friendships that grow into something more but still the relationship are distinctly different. As different as food and water.

Edited August 23 by bmcclure7

[Feelosopher]

On 8/20/2024 at 6:03 PM, Fullmetalyoyo said:

I think there are definitely hints here, but I see it going the way of Shalladin. I just don't see Brandon taking it all the way due to how careful he is about representation. Syl is so tied up in Kaladin's struggle with depression and suicidality that I think Brandon will be very wary of people over simplifying the message to "if you're depressed just get a girlfriend".

Kaladin's journey with depression has been quite explicitly not about finding poor ways to cope, but rather confronting it and reaching acceptance, while also not letting it define him. 

He and Syl becoming romantically involved would not sully his story with depression. Sometimes a romantic relationship is helpful, though, and there's no reason to pretend it's not in a fictional story. It becomes an issue if the reason for romance is relief (both in reality and if that's the message in a narrative), but at this point in Kaladin's story it so clearly would not be that. Regardless if it's a relationship with Syl or someone else. 

To add, it's okay to do stories about maladaptive coping mechanisms, good even. Specifically in Kaladin's case, though, a relationship with spren or human would not be that because of what he has already gone through. 

Edited September 3 by Feelosopher

[Confused]

Questions

What if Kaladin ascends as the Wind, or the avatar of Roshar, or even Honor? He will no longer be human but a creature of Investiture. Like Syl. This raises some questions:

Will their bond survive? Does it need to if Kal can do magic on his own? Might this be Brandon’s reason for developing their relationship – two magical beings whose only bond is Love? We don’t see much of Cultivation and Honor’s or Devotion and Dominion’s relationship. Maybe this is our chance to see how magical beings love one another. (Hopefully without the chull... Brandon really does do romance poorly.)

We don’t know what Investitures created the Old Gods of Roshar. Will Kal’s and Syl’s Investitures match if Kal doesn’t ascend as Honor? How might an Investiture mismatch affect their bond, assuming it continues after Kal’s ascension? How might the mismatch affect their relationship?

No answers, just some questions. I appreciate your thoughts.

Comments

I feel I can confidently address the “best friends vs. romance” topic that’s arisen on this thread. I’ve known my wife for more than 50 years. We’ve been (and remain) best friends that entire time. I STRONGLY recommend you keep your physical attractions to yourself unless you feel some reciprocity from your friend. But if you do fall for your best friend, and they encourage you, KEEP THEM if you can!!! Relationships may soar on the heated sparks of passion, but they endure in the cooler flames of companionship. Friendship that underlies romantic love is a very special thing.

@GudThymes, platonic friendships with the opposite sex ARE desirable and valuable. I’m not suggesting otherwise. I just think it’s special when friendship blossoms into romantic love. The Meg Ryan-Billy Crystal movie “When Harry Met Sally” (and many others) addresses this issue.

The thought that something terrible will happen to either Kal or Syl is unacceptable! What a downer! I can confidently predict that will not happen. Maybe Ishar will try to grab Syl for his sadistic experiments, but Kal will rescue her in time. Another confident prediction: If something terrible does happen to either of them, I will never read another Sanderson book. (I like Robin Hobb better anyway, if only by a smidgen.)

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

Brandon really does do romance poorly.)

 

what do you mean, brandon does romance poorly? brandon is great at romance. elend and vin, siri and susebron, shallan and adolin... there's plenty of very solid stories there.

granted, 90% of what i read is sanderson, i don't have many other reference points. the main ones were robert jordan, whose characters acted like petty bullies towards each other while they inexplicably felt attraction for unfathomable reasons, and terry pratchett, who doesn't focus on those anyway, and when he does they just feel completely unnatural. maybe i find sanderson good only because i have low standards, but he's by far the best at romance that i know.

[Etedbert he/him]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

what do you mean, brandon does romance poorly? brandon is great at romance. elend and vin, siri and susebron, shallan and adolin... there's plenty of very solid stories there.

granted, 90% of what i read is sanderson, i don't have many other reference points. the main ones were robert jordan, whose characters acted like petty bullies towards each other while they inexplicably felt attraction for unfathomable reasons, and terry pratchett, who doesn't focus on those anyway, and when he does they just feel completely unnatural. maybe i find sanderson good only because i have low standards, but he's by far the best at romance that i know.

As someone who reads a lot, Non-romance books, Sanderson and Romance books alike, Brandon has never been AMAZING at Romance. He’s definitely better than most Fantasy/High Fantasy writers. He writes good romances, but not great or amazing ones. Yumi/Painter is the best he’s done so far. It’s hard to compare his romance writing though, especially because the people who write better romance than him (eg Sally Rooney, Jane Austen, Haruki Murakami) usually center books on a romance, rather than having it be a side plot to a larger story like he does.

what Sanderson does do extremely extremely well, is have his romances fit effectively into his plots to build impact for other moment's.

Edited September 4 by Etedbert

[Windrunner22]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

Questions

What if Kaladin ascends as the Wind, or the avatar of Roshar, or even Honor? He will no longer be human but a creature of Investiture. Like Syl. This raises some questions:

Will their bond survive? Does it need to if Kal can do magic on his own? Might this be Brandon’s reason for developing their relationship – two magical beings whose only bond is Love? We don’t see much of Cultivation and Honor’s or Devotion and Dominion’s relationship. Maybe this is our chance to see how magical beings love one another. (Hopefully without the chull... Brandon really does do romance poorly.)

I think your head is in the right spot here. It seems like Kal has a date with destiny and could potentially Ascend something. I think this would likely have consequences for his bond with Syl, but I’m unsure of what they would be. 
 

I also want to add some thoughts about Kal as a lot of focus has been on Syl. I see a sort of inverse relationship developing between the two. As Syl embraces human things, Kaladin is rejecting human things. Syl is appearing person sized, changing outfits, flirting, writing, wanting to be a scribe. Human things that humans do, Syl now does or wants to do. Meanwhile, we see Kal fly through the Tower instead of walking. We see him prefer to hover/float instead of standing. In the preview with his family he speaks about the heralds in an unusually casual way. He also makes a remark about how people must earn their titles, not just by their eye color. So, titles for lighteyes, reverence for heralds, the act of walking. Human things that humans do, Kal no longer does, or would prefer not to. Just something to think about, if not foreshadowing that Kal will be more spren-like by the end of WaT. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, Confused said:

The thought that something terrible will happen to either Kal or Syl is unacceptable! What a downer! I can confidently predict that will not happen. Maybe Ishar will try to grab Syl for his sadistic experiments, but Kal will rescue her in time.

Well, that's assuming the experiments would be terrible for her. Honorspren already survive longest, and Syl has been growing more and more human to the point she (fake) breathes now. It's even brought up a couple times in the chapters so far that she feels more at home in the Physical Realm than she ever did in Shadesmar, which is foreshadowing if I've ever seen it.

[Ookla she/her]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

what do you mean, brandon does romance poorly? brandon is great at romance. elend and vin, siri and susebron, shallan and adolin... there's plenty of very solid stories there.

granted, 90% of what i read is sanderson, i don't have many other reference points. the main ones were robert jordan, whose characters acted like petty bullies towards each other while they inexplicably felt attraction for unfathomable reasons, and terry pratchett, who doesn't focus on those anyway, and when he does they just feel completely unnatural. maybe i find sanderson good only because i have low standards, but he's by far the best at romance that i know.

4 hours ago, Etedbert said:

As someone who reads a lot, Non-romance books, Sanderson and Romance books alike, Brandon has never been AMAZING at Romance. He’s definitely better than most Fantasy/High Fantasy writers. He writes good romances, but not great or amazing ones. Yumi/Painter is the best he’s done so far. It’s hard to compare his romance writing though, especially because the people who write better romance than him (eg Sally Rooney, Jane Austen, Haruki Murakami) usually center books on a romance, rather than having it be a side plot to a larger story like he does.

what Sanderson does do extremely extremely well, is have his romances fit effectively into his plots to build impact for other moment's.

I intentionally avoid dedicated romance, because I find romance tropes inherently distasteful. In that way, I think Sanderson does romance better than most other authors I've read (except for Shannon Hale in The Books of Bayern and Jill Bearup with Just Stab Me Now). Now, how much of that is a result of having watched far too many Hallmark movies against my will, I don't know, so objectively you may be right about him not being the best at romance, but subjectively from my point of view, he does a pretty effective job (I love the relationships between Vin and Elend, Siri and Susebron, and Shallan and Adolin! Yumi and Painter are no slouches, either, but I do find their relationship a little more teenager-y and cringe. Not crazy so, but their story definitely carries more of the typical romance tropes.).

Of course, it's possible that I just dislike romance tropes, and so I might dislike "good" or "great" romances sheerly because of that. (shrug)

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Kaladin: You don’t actually have a chull down there, do you?

Syl: Wanna see?

 

Yea, I rest my case. This is way to thirsty for anything other than Syladin.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Kaladin: You don’t actually have a chull down there, do you?

Syl: Wanna see?

 

Yea, I rest my case. This is way to thirsty for anything other than Syladin.

Thirsty? It's Syl we're talking about, messing with people is in her nature. 

[Friendshipspren he/him]

I'm neutral on the romantic relationship myself but wouldn't mind it if it happens. 

Edited September 10 by Friendshipspren
eh

[strmblsd he/him. (You lost the game)]

Ok so I used to be Soo much against syladin but the further we get the more I like it and feel like it would work out well. And honestly it does seem like she is trying to make moves on him now.

[Erklitt]

On the romance topic: what I like very much about how Brandon treats the topic in his books is that he shows us many married couples with at least a working, often a happy relationship. Maybe too high a percentage compared to the real world, but I don't mind that at all.

It's not just those whose romance we saw on screen. Look at Lirin and Hesina. Rock and Tuaka (whose name I had to look up). Sadeas and Ialai. Even Roshone and Laral. And several about whose married lives we know nothing but that they work together (officers and their wives) which can only work longtime if the relationship is up to a certain par. 

On 9/4/2024 at 6:49 AM, Ookla said:

I love the relationships between Vin and Elend, Siri and Susebron, and Shallan and Adolin! Yumi and Painter are no slouches, either, but I do find their relationship a little more teenager-y and cringe.

Couldn't have said it better! I'll add Raoden and Sarene and even Dalinar and Navani to the list I love. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Quote

He held out his hand to her, and she—after a moment’s pause—took it.

They're basically engaged.

[Cocoa he/him]

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

They're basically engaged.

Now, now, it never specified that it was her safehand.

[Miyabi She/Her]

On 8/6/2024 at 10:32 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Is it just me, or is Syl trying to put the moves on Kaladin?

Staying full sized, wearing proper women’s clothing from his culture, doing an awful lot of touching.

Seems to me like somebody has a crush and wants to get noticed.

She low-key has been giving me "Sylph" from Black Clover vibes.

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm ready for the 2,000 year age gap discourse.

[SpiritOfWrath]

O ye! 2000 is just a number!

But honestly, Sanderson has been hinting at it for a while, and it’s not really a matter of “what does it bring to the story” but more “does this break any promises (foreshadowing but a better word) that he has already made”