Syladin

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

6 hours ago, GudThymes said:

I've already very explicitly stated the value of a platonic relationship that stays platonic in this situation. It would be a good example to counter a common trope in society that is damaging to men. What do you think the books you read in school were about? Just to be entertainment?

You've said that a platonic relationship has value, but I'm still not sure on your reasoning for why. What makes it more or less valuable than any other relationship?

I would imagine that it's a common trope because it is common in real life. I don't understand how it is damaging to men.

And yes, all of the books that I read are for entertainment. If you're talking about mandatory reading materials, at best, I skimmed them. I don't read books for a moral or for a lesson in life, I read them solely for enjoyment. If you are referring to academic texts, I don't see the relevance to our current conversation.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Gonna nip this snippiness in the bud before it grows further, let's all remember the Code of Conduct and Etiquette Guide.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not closing the thread, just interrupting that chain of comments. Ship flamewarring gets... intense... and I wanted to cut it off early.

Thank you, and apologies.

Edited August 9 by SwordNimiForPresident

[GudThymes he/him]

35 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You've said that a platonic relationship has value, but I'm still not sure on your reasoning for why. What makes it more or less valuable than any other relationship?

I would imagine that it's a common trope because it is common in real life. I don't understand how it is damaging to men.

And yes, all of the books that I read are for entertainment. If you're talking about mandatory reading materials, at best, I skimmed them. I don't read books for a moral or for a lesson in life, I read them solely for enjoyment. If you are referring to academic texts, I don't see the relevance to our current conversation.

So the trope isn't a thing in real life. Straight men and women can be close friends without one of them developing feelings. Many people don't think that though. The reason why the trope is damaging to men is that it reinforces that belief. I want to stay away from the common conversation around it but there truly is a loneliness epidemic among men, and simultaneously there is a problem with men coming into their female friends without it being reciprocated. The value of a platonic relationship is that it staves off feelings of loneliness without having additional complications that romantic relationships do have. Combatting the belief/idea/trope could help people.

Having an example of a man and woman (yes Syl is magic not really a woman) that have an incredibly close relationship that isn't romantic would be helpful to combat that belief/trope.

I hope that helps explain my line of reasoning.

I disagree with you about why we should read books and I'll leave it at that.

[Drehy he/him]

Just a note as an outsider, and please don’t get mad at me.

It seems to me like neither side is really listening to the other and offering direct rebuttals to their arguments.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

7 hours ago, GudThymes said:

So the trope isn't a thing in real life. Straight men and women can be close friends without one of them developing feelings. Many people don't think that though. The reason why the trope is damaging to men is that it reinforces that belief. I want to stay away from the common conversation around it but there truly is a loneliness epidemic among men, and simultaneously there is a problem with men coming into their female friends without it being reciprocated. The value of a platonic relationship is that it staves off feelings of loneliness without having additional complications that romantic relationships do have. Combatting the belief/idea/trope could help people.

Having an example of a man and woman (yes Syl is magic not really a woman) that have an incredibly close relationship that isn't romantic would be helpful to combat that belief/trope.

I hope that helps explain my line of reasoning.

I disagree with you about why we should read books and I'll leave it at that.

I never meant to imply that men and women couldn't have platonic relationships. My point was that it is not uncommon for a platonic relationship to evolve into a romantic one. I would even argue that those are the best relationships because both parties already share a bond and are simply adding another layer to it. I also don't understand why it is damaging just to men, as both parties would need to develop feelings in order for the relationship to transform into a romance. Furthermore, in this specific example it is Syl that is hypothetically developing feelings, and so it simply isn't an example of what you're concerned about.

I'm curious if you would have the same problem with this relationship if their genders were swapped, or if they both presented as male or female?

Finally, as you point out, Syl is not a human or in fact a woman. Given her nature, I would argue that she is closer to a self aware LLM than she is to a person. If anything, this potential ship is an example of an AI becoming self aware and falling in love with it's creator.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wasnt a fan of this ship, especially with Terra out there, but this last shoulder scene with Syl really really makes it seem like feelings have begun to form. 

It doesn't have to go that way. But the door for it to go that way seems to clearly be open. 

Edited August 9 by teknopathetic

[king of nowhere]

On 8/9/2024 at 1:22 AM, GudThymes said:

@king of nowhere but what benefit does a romance between them bring to the story?

 

With every other cosmere relationship I can think of the relationship is either driving something in the plot or exploring some concept.

seems a very bleak concept of why characters should hook up.
i don't particularly want them to have romance or not; I can't speak for others in that regard.

i just trust sanderson to know what he's doing and where he wants to push the characters. if sanderson thinks that's what those characters should do, he surely has reasons.

[GudThymes he/him]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

seems a very bleak concept of why characters should hook up.
i don't particularly want them to have romance or not; I can't speak for others in that regard.

i just trust sanderson to know what he's doing and where he wants to push the characters. if sanderson thinks that's what those characters should do, he surely has reasons.

I'm not following how is it bleak to say that relationships in a story should be for a reason? I've been hearing the reason for why they should be together because people think they have chemistry. But this is a book not real life and authors should have a reason for why they write something. 

 

I will clarify again, I will not be mad if they get together. I just feel that their story as I've read it would be a better example if they stay platonic.

[Use the Falchion]

I never really minded the ship, but it was never my top pick. It was always maybe Kaladin Ship #3 at most.* But I'm not too worried about it. If Sanderson can write a decent romance between Yumi and Painter in roughly 120k words or so, and he can write fight scenes between Kaladin and Leshwi so engaging that people ship them after a few chapters of interactions at the beginning of the book and like two interactions at the end, then I think that Brandon can pull off a nice Syladin romance. If he goes this route, it probably won't be perfect, and I know it'll really challenge those with their views of who Syl should be to Kaladin and how she behaves firmly ingrained in their minds. But one of the major themes of this series is about people moving forward and changing, physically, mentally, emotionally, even spiritually. Kaladin isn't the same boy in the flashbacks, nor the man we met in Senn's chapter, nor the bridge leader who hated all lighteyes from the first book. Dalinar isn't the same bloodthirsty warlord and berserker he used to be, nor is he the doubting man from the first book. Navani is more than just the Dowager Queen of Alethkar - she's an artifabrian, scientist, mother, wife, grandmother, patron, and now Bondsmith. 

Syl is the same way. She isn't just Kaladin's "fairy companion," nor is she just a little girl. She's a woman and a Spren one at that, meaning that she has her own desires and agency, and that her entire attitude and way of maturing is different than a human. 

At the end of the day, I get that we want more heterosexual platonic relationships in fiction. It's part of why Sherlock and Watson from Elementary are one of my favorite relationships in media. But not every romance, slow-burn or otherwise, has to be shut down due to wanting that thing either. At least that's my take. 

 

*My top Kaladin ships were Kaladin/Jasnah pre-RoW and Kaladin/Leshwi post-RoW, with Kaladin/Lift POST TIMESKIP taking second. 

[king of nowhere]

33 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I'm not following how is it bleak to say that relationships in a story should be for a reason?  this is a book not real life and authors should have a reason for why they write something.

at the same time, a book should have verosimilitude. a story is an organic thing. if every little thing that happens is there for meta reasons, it stops being a story. in the best case, it loses some authenticity. in the worst case, it becomes a political statement.

 

besides, there's several statements by brandon (which i'm too lazy to search and link) where he says that he plans the plot, but he let character development grow organically. he let characters grow as he thinks they realistically would. which sometimes can conflict with the plot. i can easily imagine he just decided they would take that step simply because of who they became - especially since it wouldn't impact the main plot otherwise.

[the_archduke]

It could be done to finally explain where the Natan people got their blue skin and white hair?  Unless I missed something, that has been just hanging out there since Way of Kings.  Hoid's explanation of the queen sleeping with the moon is less than persuasive. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

at the same time, a book should have verosimilitude. a story is an organic thing. if every little thing that happens is there for meta reasons, it stops being a story. in the best case, it loses some authenticity. in the worst case, it becomes a political statement.

I couldn't agree more.

12 hours ago, the_archduke said:

It could be done to finally explain where the Natan people got their blue skin and white hair?  Unless I missed something, that has been just hanging out there since Way of Kings.  Hoid's explanation of the queen sleeping with the moon is less than persuasive. 

I've been wondering the same thing since we saw the Spren in Ishar's tent at the end of RoW. The fact that they appear to have functional biology makes me think this theory has legs.

[reisleK she/her]

On 8/7/2024 at 10:23 AM, Lord Spirit said:

I picture their relationship more of siblings, with Syl being the annoying little sister (who also grants Kal powers). They love and care for each other, but not romantically. Syl is growing up in a sense as she doesn’t really remember much before she bonded Kaladin, so her actions in WaT are more of her figuring out how she wants to express her self. She’s more mature than when she first bonded Kaladin and she now started deciding who she wants to be. She also spent pretty much all of WoK and WoR hidden, so she’s also still adjusting to interacting with the general world (OB and RoW didn’t give her much time for that). Kaladin recognizes that she is growing and realizes (like older siblings do) that she is isn’t a child anymore and has grown up. 

Exactly! I find Syladin incest-y for that reason

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I don’t have a horse in this race really, and I definitely am not looking for any arguments or things cause I really don’t care either way how this ends up. I never really expected Brandon to ship Syladin. But I wasn’t outraged to hear other people were shipping it.

All I’m here to say is that after reading these first few chapters I’m noticing a lot of little things that feel like they are headed that direction. Which has been surprising to me, cause I really didn’t expect this to be even a real possibility, more so just a fun and pretty “out there” theory. But here are the things I’ve been noticing.

Syl is being more human-like, staying full size and using Kaladin’s height as a marker. Kaladin keeps noticing things that she does like wearing a safe hand glove and how she mimics breathing, things like that. There’s more physical contact than usual, like her resting her head on his shoulder. And there were even some callouts in the early chapters that focused on framing exactly how Kaladin had always perceived her: noting that she behaved kind of childish at times but was never actually a child and he never viewed her in that way, emphasizing that even in her smaller size she was always an adult woman, stuff like that which feels kind of unnecessary to call out. The only reason I can think of for why this was included is to make sure anyone who has viewed Syl as a child reframes that view and doesn’t get creeped out if their relationship got romantic or something eventually. Syl also has been taking a more involved role in discussions with other people, even responding to Dalinar that they would accept the mission, and Kaladin notes that she deserves to have a say, etc. not a huge one but just definitely points out the changes she has been making.

It just seems to me like there is a lot painting the background for this to potentially happen. So I’m curious if anyone who is against the ship could call out some reasons for why these things are getting dropped that aren’t related to this? Again just looking for other perspectives and logical thoughts that might counteract how I interpreted these things.

On 8/10/2024 at 9:43 PM, the_archduke said:

It could be done to finally explain where the Natan people got their blue skin and white hair?  Unless I missed something, that has been just hanging out there since Way of Kings.  Hoid's explanation of the queen sleeping with the moon is less than persuasive. 

Whoah, now that is an interesting take. It could actually be the explanation.

[Subvisual Haze]

At the very least I think Syl is trying to get more attention from Kaladin and acting like they are already a couple.  Whether that leads to anything else is a very open question.

[alder24]

On 8/11/2024 at 4:43 AM, the_archduke said:

It could be done to finally explain where the Natan people got their blue skin and white hair?  Unless I missed something, that has been just hanging out there since Way of Kings.  Hoid's explanation of the queen sleeping with the moon is less than persuasive. 

16 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Whoah, now that is an interesting take. It could actually be the explanation.

It is already explained, they are Siah Aimian-human hybrids (Siah Aimian have a blue skin).

Spoiler

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

50 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It is already explained, they are Siah Aimian-human hybrids (Siah Aimian have a blue skin).

  Hide contents

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

Ah, interesting, thanks for sharing this! Do we know if Brandon has given any further clarification as to why/how the Siah-Aimians have blue skin? It's also interesting that they can change/alter their skin at will too. Would it be unreasonable for the Siah-Aimians to be descendants of human/spren combinations, specifically honor spren? According to the coppermind, their shadows are weird specifically because of a connection to the cognitive realm..... gives some room for speculation and theories....? I'm not sold on it, but it seems to have some ground to stand on still

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Would it be unreasonable for the Siah-Aimians to be descendants of human/spren combinations, specifically honor spren?

Brandon has confirmed they are not human-honorspren hybrids:

Spoiler

Questioner

Aimians and honorspren have a lot in common. They can change their appearance, they are blue, they don't seem to die. Are those Aimians descendants of humans and honorspren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question though! The reasons they can change shape are similarly related. Excellent question.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Though the wording does leave open the possibility that they could be pure honorspren brought over like Ishar's experiments, to be fair. But personally I think it would be weird for the Stormfather to be so shocked it's possible if it's already happened, so while I can see the logic of the theory I don't follow it myself.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Though the wording does leave open the possibility that they could be pure honorspren brought over like Ishar's experiments, to be fair. But personally I think it would be weird for the Stormfather to be so shocked it's possible if it's already happened, so while I can see the logic of the theory I don't follow it myself.

Gotcha, thanks! That clarifies that question, then!

I agree that the Stormfather wouldn't be so shocked if that was the origin for the Siah-Aimians, unless the shocking part was how it was being done?... like maybe with the swearing of the 5th ideal the finally & fully enter the physical realm?... still seems like quite a reach though. 

But definitely very interesting that the reasons they can change shape are similarly related!.... whatever that means lol

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Ah, interesting, thanks for sharing this! Do we know if Brandon has given any further clarification as to why/how the Siah-Aimians have blue skin? It's also interesting that they can change/alter their skin at will too. Would it be unreasonable for the Siah-Aimians to be descendants of human/spren combinations, specifically honor spren? According to the coppermind, their shadows are weird specifically because of a connection to the cognitive realm..... gives some room for speculation and theories....? I'm not sold on it, but it seems to have some ground to stand on still

I will add that they were apparently made by Adonalsium himself, just like Singers and humans (or rather with the same intent, whatever it means):

Spoiler

Finallity (paraphrased)

We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.

English Reading Series at BYU 2018 (Feb. 23, 2018)

 

Edit:

Shapeshifting is quite common in Cosmere:

Spoiler

Questioner

Axies the Collector, is he a kandra-like species? Are they common throughout the whole cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Aimians reside on Roshar right now. They are... I would not say kandra-like, in that the other species of Aimian has more kandra-like qualities. There's two that used to live there, before it was Scoured. But they are a different species; they are not human.

Questioner

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Shapeshifters, there are multiple types of shapeshifters, but... even, you would call the Royal Locks a type of shapeshifting. So, shapeshifting is a common thing in the cosmere. Having the ability... Once you know how the magic works, you will see why. So, there are other, kind of, species of shapeshifter.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Edited August 20 by alder24

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I will add that they were apperently made by Adonalsium himself, just like Singers and humans (or rather with the same intent, whatever it means):

Thanks! Clearly I need to start digging through WOBs more before throwing out the first ideas/theories that pop into my brain lol really appreciate you people sharing the quotes and clarifying everything

[Little_Dagger she/her]

I think this bit of dialogue speaks volumes:

Quote

“Reminds me of home,” Kaladin said. “It’s more humid there than on the Plains.”

“Home…” Syl glanced toward the sky, where Kaladin’s armor spren played. Her ponytail loosened, letting her hair fly freely, white-blue, waving in real wind. She grinned at him. “I never felt like I had a home until I found this.”

“Urithiru?” Kaladin asked.

“By association, yes.”

I interpret that as Syl saying that Kal -- their relationship -- is what home is to her. If that interpretation is correct, there are major romantic vibes here.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

4 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Thanks! Clearly I need to start digging through WOBs more before throwing out the first ideas/theories that pop into my brain lol really appreciate you people sharing the quotes and clarifying everything

That's the nice thing about these forums, someone else already has and will pretty much always quote it to you.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 8/7/2024 at 7:30 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't particularly love the ship, but I do think the previews point heavily that direction personally. Syl resting her head on his shoulder while saying "I want things to change and be the same all at once. Suffice it to say that I want to make it harder for certain people to ignore me." when asked if she wants his treatment of her to change, Syl dressing like his ex, Kaladin turning to the camera and saying "Syl is not child-coded"... Lots of signs that either Syladin is happening or Syl is dying, in my opinion. So I guess I've resigned myself to a "wait and see" approach, not really hyped but willing to let the book make its case.

Pretty much all of this. I'm not really a fan of the ship, (there is nothing wrong with it, just isn't my preference - I think of them like siblings), but the preview chapters feel like they are signaling it HARD. All the things above, as well as Syl trying to get his mom to dish on embarrassing stories from when he was little (very "get to know the parents") really convinced me this is probably going to be a thing in this book. Maybe Brandon will win me over

Edited August 20 by Dreamwa1ker

[Fullmetalyoyo]

1 hour ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Pretty much all of this. I'm not really a fan of the ship, (there is nothing wrong with it, just isn't my preference - I think of them like siblings), but the preview chapters feel like they are signaling it HARD. All the things above, as well as Syl trying to get his mom to dish on embarrassing stories from when he was little (very "get to know the parents") really convinced me this is probably going to be a thing in this book. Maybe Brandon will win me over

I think there are definitely hints here, but I see it going the way of Shalladin. I just don't see Brandon taking it all the way due to how careful he is about representation. Syl is so tied up in Kaladin's struggle with depression and suicidality that I think Brandon will be very wary of people over simplifying the message to "if you're depressed just get a girlfriend".

[Ookla she/her]

42 minutes ago, Fullmetalyoyo said:

I think there are definitely hints here, but I see it going the way of Shalladin. I just don't see Brandon taking it all the way due to how careful he is about representation. Syl is so tied up in Kaladin's struggle with depression and suicidality that I think Brandon will be very wary of people over simplifying the message to "if you're depressed just get a girlfriend".

I think you're right about the representation aspect, but I'm not sure about Shalladin. Shallan is already married, after all. Then again, if Adolin were to die...

But even then I'm not sure it would work. There may be other plans for Kaladin and Syl.