Wind and Truth: Chapters 3 and 4

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Whoa.

 

Lots of things.

 

Radiants crafted the perfect heliodor that trapped BAM. That makes sense to me. 

 

The voice speaking to Kaladin is the Wind, which was leftover by Adonalsium himself. Wow!

 

Cultivation co-opted the Nigthwatcher from an Ado spren. That makes me think that BAM was a similar creature that Odium changed. 

 

Hoid is telling us that Kaladin is going to die, so I guess he isn't? Unclear. 

 

Thoughts?

[Little_Dagger she/her]

I think Brandon took the line "the mote confusing  the better" to heart in chapter 4  

But, storms, things are getting exciting!!!

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

“When this world was created,” Wit said, “long before Honor, Cultivation, or Odium arrived, Adonalsium left something behind on it. Sometimes it’s called the Old Magic. Sometimes that term is applied to the Nightwatcher, who came—with Cultivation’s efforts—from one of those ancient spren.

The way I read this is the Wind is another powerful ancient spren like the Nightwatcher. One that neither Honor or Cultivation adopted. A change in Odium's vessel allowed it to speak again which makes me think it is an unmade, but I don't know. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Just now, Child of Hodor said:

The way I read this is the Wind is another powerful ancient spren like the Nightwatcher. One that neither Honor or Cultivation adopted. A change in Odium's vessel allowed it to speak again which makes me think it is an unmade, but I don't know. 

I interpreted the change of vessel as Taravangians own perception vs Rayse.

 

Rayse hated Roshar and Rosharans and Honor and Cultivation. He would have been pressing against the fabric of reality a lot harder than Taravangian, who is from Roshar. I imagine it is Taravangians change in goals that allowed the Wind some breathing room. 

 

BAM being an ancient Ado spren that was corrupted fills a lot of blanks on how her imprisonment hurt so many things. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

It read to me that the Stormfather over time usurped the "portfolio" of The Wind and eventually began taking its place in the Pantheon. Should The Wind be the true bondsmith spren?

Heck, the Stormfather is said to have created all the reamaing Honourspren except Syl. Is the ancient daughter the only honourspren not corrupted by the Stormfather? Was the genocide of the Honourspren a hit job that Syl has been maneuvered to avoid? 

 

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

The Wind is female and used to talk to people more.  Guessing the Wind is who talked to Nohadon at the very start of the (in world) Way of Kings.  From the Flashback of Gavilar's funeral where Dalinar overhears Jasnah reading the book out loud.

Spoiler

Quote

“You must find the most important words a man can say.”

...

“Those words came to me from one who claimed to have seen the future,” the voice said, echoing in the hallway. Feminine, familiar. “ ‘How is this possible?' I asked in return. ‘Have you been touched by the void?’

“The reply was laughter. ‘No, sweet king. The past is the future, and as each man has lived, so must you.’ “

‘So I can but repeat what has been done before?’ 

‘In some things, yes. You will love. You will hurt. You will dream. And you will die. Each man’s past is your future.’ “

‘Then what is the point?’ I asked. ‘If all has been seen and done?’

‘The question,’ she replied, ‘is not whether you will love, hurt, dream, and die. It is what you will love, why you will hurt, when you will dream, and how you will die. This is your choice. You cannot pick the destination, only the path.’

Oathbringer Ch 105

 

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The Wind is female and used to talk to people more.  Guessing the Wind is who talked to Nohadon at the very start of the (in world) Way of Kings.  From the Flashback of Gavilar's funeral where Dalinar overhears Jasnah reading the book out loud.

  Hide contents

 

 

OOOF. Is the "seeing the future is of Odium" propaganda to make people distrust The Wind? 

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[paperstones he/him]

This completely makes me believe all Unmade or OG Rosharan Spren left over from Ado. So is this Ba-Ado-Mishram? Or another. I think it is though. 

[alder24]

Oh, yeah. There was a lot of stuff. We know what the voice is talking to Kaladin, but it's interesting that changing Odium's Vessels somehow allowed the Wind to manifest more. Was Rayse doing something to her?

Another interesting factoid is that the story of Wandersail was composed using the Rhythms of old gods of Roshar, that were guiding Ashynites during their migration to Roshar. I'm wondering if the entire story of Wandersail is about this migration. If that's the case then what the dead emperor means and what were the crimes committed by natives - could it be that the emperor was Rosharan old gods who were "replaced" as deities by storms, Stormfather and Honor/Cultivation as the ch 4 epigraph said? And how does the betrayal of Dawnsinger's gods play into it - now I'm certain that those gods were those ancient spren, not Honor and Cultivation. It was them who commanded Dawnsingers to allow humans to settle. But how did those gods betray them? And who is therefore the ancient god of stone? It makes sense now why Shins refuse to walk on stone - it's literally a god. Too many questions! Eila Stele:

Quote

We took them in, as commanded by the gods.  [...] For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

Also Wit said Ishar can't be helped and Kaladin won't return to aid Dalinar - which  I think is true.

And Mishram's capture was connected to Honor! Was it the deathstroke that finished Honor? How was Mishram connected to Honor? Maya said the absence of Honor is the reason why breaking bonds creates Deadeye now. 

Lastly, the fact that there was straight up said that Kaladin&Syl won't return, that they may die makes me think that it won't be that easy - I feel it's a red herring, because Brandon is hammering this idea into our minds as if it's a spike! Something very big will happen, it will be a mess for Kal&Syl, but I don't think they will just die in the end - now I'm expecting something unexpected!

[Subvisual Haze]

14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

OOOF. Is the "seeing the future is of Odium" propaganda to make people distrust The Wind? 

Yeah, or that a lot of the old magic spren got somewhat chaotically re-categorized and-reclaimed as Honor/Odium/Cultivation aligned post shattering.  

Windspren are of The Wind, and honorspren are windspren enlightened by Honor?  Sort of like what Sja Anat is doing?

[The Stick]

I am thinking that Adonalsium left the wind and the other truly ancient spren behind as Avatars in the form of the Old Magic. I guess my question is how did Cultivation hijack the Old Magic over the years.

The Sazed name-drop was really cool. This confirms that they have not actually met as of KOWT. 

We know that Wit cannot die at this point in the timeline, but I am not thinking that Kaladin will die either. However, I do think that what this does mean is there is some permanent change that kicks Hoid off of Roshar.

The chapter was surprisingly Jasnah heavy, and makes me think that Jasnah and Hoid have fundamentally different philosophies. To me, if reads that Hoid really did consider Adonalsium as a capital c God figure, which again raises the question on why they killed him.

On the change in suppression of the Wind, I would say that because Rayse actively knew and was connected to Adonalsium, he intentionally tried to limit any forms of its power in any way possible. Either Todium doesn't know, doesn't care, or is deciding to let some fragment of Adonalsium reassert itself.

[Zrogezrg]

Quote

“Simply trying to give you a proper send-off,” Wit said. “We’re at the end, Kaladin, and you are needed. I want you to march off to your divine destiny with a spring in your step.”

This smells to me like "Kaladin will be Jezrien 2.0" but the renewal of oathpact does not seem like something that works with everything else going on, so I am sceptical...

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, The Stick said:

I am thinking that Adonalsium left the wind and the other truly ancient spren behind as Avatars in the form of the Old Magic. I guess my question is how did Cultivation hijack the Old Magic over the years.

The Sazed name-drop was really cool. This confirms that they have not actually met as of KOWT. 

We know that Wit cannot die at this point in the timeline, but I am not thinking that Kaladin will die either. However, I do think that what this does mean is there is some permanent change that kicks Hoid off of Roshar.

The chapter was surprisingly Jasnah heavy, and makes me think that Jasnah and Hoid have fundamentally different philosophies. To me, if reads that Hoid really did consider Adonalsium as a capital c God figure, which again raises the question on why they killed him.

On the change in suppression of the Wind, I would say that because Rayse actively knew and was connected to Adonalsium, he intentionally tried to limit any forms of its power in any way possible. Either Todium doesn't know, doesn't care, or is deciding to let some fragment of Adonalsium reassert itself.

If Adonalsium left them, then 16 would make sense right?

12 Old Magic Spren We Know
9 Unmade
Nightwatcher 
Wind God
Stone God

2 Possible Old Magic Spren

Stormfather / Rider of the Storms - Possibly a newcomer in the actual pantheon or corrupted in some way
The Sibling = Possibly a newcomer or corrupted in some way by The Tower

2 More

Possibly Cusicesh but Brandon has said he is lower power than The Nightwatcher?
EDIT: Sun - mentioned by Szeth
EDITL Stars - mentioned by Szeth

Horneater Gods that helped make the peaks:
the gods of the waters
the gods of the mountains
gods of the tree

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[con1vm]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

If Adonalsium left them, then 16 would make sense right?

12 Old Magic Spren We Know
9 Unmade
Nightwatcher 
Wind God
Stone God

2 Possible Old Magic Spren

Stormfather / Rider of the Storms - Possibly a newcomer in the actual pantheon or corrupted in some way
The Sibling = Possibly a newcomer or corrupted in some way by The Tower

2 More

Possibly Cusicesh?
?

We know from preview of one interlude that Cusicesh is 

Spoiler

Iriali-specific being which is leading them to another worlds

So it's out of formula.

[teknopathetic he/him]

8 minutes ago, con1vm said:

We know from preview of one interlude that Cusicesh is 

  Hide contents

Iriali-specific being which is leading them to another worlds

So it's out of formula.

While I agree that is likely, it could still be a candidate:

Pre-Release Interlude Spoiler

Spoiler

Well, we know he is a guide for that leg of the migration. He says he will lead the Irali to the next land but does not state that he will join them in the next land. If Cusicesh manages to get out of the system, then I would agree he is not of Roshar. But if he only gets them to the interstellar highway exit, then he is just a Roshar spren. Did the Irali come to Roshar with the aid of Cusicesh, or did they come to Roshar because Cusicesh would help them there? 

I find it somewhat unlikely that the island the Iriali went to had a giant spren standing on it. But maybe that is the case. Or maybe the entity changes shape to fit the magicscape of the new planet. 

Cusicesh might be an Irali spren or he might be a Rosharan spren that was turned to their cause. 

 

 

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[GudThymes he/him]

I'm all in that the wind is BAM. Theory is that Rayse corrupted the Wind and turned her into Ba-Ado-Mishram using Raysium in some way. And since the vessel changed the god-metal properties change and likely the corruption of the unmade has changed in form freeing her voice.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I'm all in that the wind is BAM. Theory is that Rayse corrupted the Wind and turned her into Ba-Ado-Mishram using Raysium in some way. And since the vessel changed the god-metal properties change and likely the corruption of the unmade has changed in form freeing her voice.

I think the theory that the voice/wind is BAM is dead with this new revelation. Unmaking essentially kills an entity. Hoid confirmed that the Wind is an ancient spren left by Adonalsium before Honor/Odium came to Roshar. The Wind was speaking to people in the past and Eila Stele also confirms that the Wind was there when humans arrived. The Wind is something else than BAM - it existed before BAM was unmade. BAM might have been a spren like the Wind, who was Unmade by Odium at some point, just like Nightwatcher was before she was changed by Cultivation.

The properties of a god metal might not change with a new Vessel, and if they do it would happen over a longer time, not within a day. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If Kelsier created a metal while holding Preservation that it would have acted the same as lerasium, though over time the properties of it might shift.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Ted Herman
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

29 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

If Adonalsium left them, then 16 would make sense right?

The spren of the sun and the stars might be the two missing. WoR ch 88:

Quote

“My gods are the spirits of the stones,” Szeth whispered. “The sun and the stars. Not men.

 

31 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Possibly Cusicesh but Brandon has said he is lower power than The Nightwatcher?

This shouldn't matter. Unmade are less invested than the Nightwatcher anyway. The same with the interlude thing - Cusicesh might have been changed by something to play a new role, just like the Nightwacher was. I think Cusicesh is a valid candidate.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Nice catch on the Szeth Gods. It also reminded me of the Horneater gods: the gods of the waters, the gods of the mountains, gods of the tree.

No mention of wind there. Water is new. 

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[the_archduke]

Is it possible that any of the other Unmade are also Ado spren?  

[GudThymes he/him]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Unmaking essentially kills an entity.

Was this stated somewhere or is it based on how the Sibling spoke about it? If the latter I see it as a ship of Theseus situation and really up to interpretation rather than established "fact".

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Hoid confirmed that the Wind is an ancient spren left by Adonalsium before Honor/Odium came to Roshar. The Wind was speaking to people in the past and Eila Stele also confirms that the Wind was there when humans arrived. The Wind is something else than BAM - it existed before BAM was unmade.

I'm not seeing how this means that the wind couldn't be BAM. Hoid has referred to people/entities as something they used to go by in the past and I feel like calling it BAM now would be giving the reveal too early (if I'm right). Take the Returned as an example for what I'm saying. If you knew someone before they returned you would see some of the same person there even if they don't remember themselves fully, so since Hoid knew/knew of The Wind prior to this theoretical unmaking it wouldn't surprise me if he is still calling it.

Additionally, unless I'm mistake the unmade weren't in existence when humans first came to Roshar.

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Hoid confirmed that the Wind is an ancient spren left by Adonalsium before Honor/Odium came to Roshar. The Wind was speaking to people in the past and Eila Stele also confirms that the Wind was there when humans arrived. The Wind is something else than BAM - it existed before BAM was unmade.

Fair enough that it will take time and that the mechanics I presented are wrong. But I didn't think we knew the exact mechanics for unmaking so I don't think this rules anything out. Especially since BAM is trapped in the spiritual realm all sorts of shenanigans can be going on.

 

I'm curious what your thoughts on for why the winds voice would be freed when Odiums vessel changed if the Wind isn't an unmade

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Was this stated somewhere or is it based on how the Sibling spoke about it? If the latter I see it as a ship of Theseus situation and really up to interpretation rather than established "fact".

It's not a ship of Theseus (other things in Cosmere are like that, like creating CS) because the entity is not the same after Unmaking - the Unmaking turns a wooden ship into a nuclear submarine. Unmaking kills the mind and steals memories of its subject (Returned on the other hand lose just their memories), trapping them in a half-way existence in between Realms. Whatever entity it was before Unmaking, it's lost after it. RoW I-3:

Quote

She flowed through the Kholinar palace, existing between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. Like many of the Unmade, she belonged to neither one fully. Odium trapped them in a halfway existence
[...]
If Odium caught her in a verifiable lie, he would unmake her again. Steal her memory. Rip her to pieces. But in so doing, he would lose a useful tool.
[...]
Once he’d found her windspren, and unmade them to lose their minds and memories, he would hopefully be content—and not see the other child she’d sent.

 

27 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I'm not seeing how this means that the wind couldn't be BAM.

Because you're missing the piece of information from RoW I-3. The Wind today behaves the same as the Wind before Odium came to Roshar - if it was unmade, it wouldn't be the same, it would be a totally new entity. The way Hoid speaks about the Wind shows she wasn't changed - Hoid said that the Nightwatcher used to be an ancient spren before she was changed by Cultivation, he would have said the same about the Wind if she was unmade into BAM.

31 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I feel like calling it BAM now would be giving the reveal too early (if I'm right).

Reveals are being thrown left and right in those new chapters. Truthfully, the amount of new stuff added since reading is staggering and I'm certain Brandon kept those things away from us back then on purpose. Additionally, having two characters, each with their own independent arc, pursuing the same entity seems like a waste. 

36 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

Especially since BAM is trapped in the spiritual realm all sorts of shenanigans can be going on.

That's another thing why I'm doubtful it's BAM - she's trapped in a gemstone, with her Connections severed and broken, unable to communicate from its prison. Even if it is in SR, she shouldn't be able to reach anybody from her gemstone.

38 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I'm curious what your thoughts on for why the winds voice would be freed when Odiums vessel changed if the Wind isn't an unmade

I think it's because of two reasons. The first is that the Wind was  always present with Kaladin all the time and sometimes she was talking to him. It's likely that after swearing the 4th Ideal, Kaladin's Connection to the Wind increased enough so they can communicate more easily now. Another one is that Rayse was probably pressing on the Rosharan fabric with his power, either directly or indirectly suppressing the Wind and Taravangian doesn't do this anymore to that extent, allowing the Wind to reach Kaladin in such a way (something like what's happening with Harmony, Ruin and Hemalurgy - proposed by others above).

[GudThymes he/him]

@alder24 I'll need to reread RoW. I don't fully remember that segment and the excerpts are too removed from context for me personally. I see your interpretation and it would absolutely negate the theory. Will try and report back to continue the convo when I have time to reread. But thank you for pulling that info .

I don't think that it is related to the fourth ideal given the epigraph for ch. 3. I am more leaning to the latter theory that TOdium doesn't know to or just isn't  suppressing The Wind in the way that Rayse did.

[Shacharma]

Do the chapter openings from inworld KOWaT suggest that the book was written by a listener?

[+robardin he/him]

I'm pretty sure the Stormfather counts as an "Old Magic" spren - we have WoBs that firmly state that highstorms and the Stormfather on Roshar both pre-date the Shattering, but that the SF "was not in his present state" back then.

Obviously that means not having a Splinter of Honor attached to him, but quite likely also that his "upgrade" to be able to form a Nahel bond to a human Bondsmith was something that only happened as an action of Honor after his arrival to Roshar (similar to the Nightwatcher becoming Cultivation's "pet spren").

6 minutes ago, Shacharma said:

Do the chapter openings from inworld KOWaT suggest that the book was written by a listener?

Well the opening to the eipgraph to Chapter 4 of KoWaT ("I have read that in the ancient days, the Wind often spoke to both human and singer") suggests the writer is not Kaladin, who cannot read.

So... Renarin? I would have thought Szeth, but the tone of the words doesn't seem like Szeth at all.

[Shacharma]

13 minutes ago, Shacharma said:

Do the chapter openings from inworld KOWaT suggest that the book was written by a listener?

Specifically, i'm referring to "Perhaps it is the new storm, making people begin to reconsider that the wind is not their enemy." - I dont think humans consider wind the enemy, but given the betrayal of the ancient Spren the listeners might? and this fits better with the new storm being viewed as a positive thing?

I think it's going to end being someone like Venli's mother? Thude? or even Rlain? (especialy given that now rlain is a truthwatcher?)