The Old Magic Gods

[teknopathetic he/him]

We now know that Adonalsium left a few Gods on Roshar. We had seen some evidence of this with The Stormfather predating Honour, but I wonder how many we can find? A lot of these might overlap, but it would be interesting to see which might be the same entities. 

Possible Old Magic Gods

Honour and Cultivation Gods: Changed by Honour and Cultivation?
The Stormfather
The Nightwatcher
The Sibling

The Unmade:
Ba-Ado-Mishram - high intelligence

Sja-Anat: Taker of Secrets: medium high intelligence
Dal-Gonarthis: black fisher - medium intelligence
Re-Shaphir: Midnight Mother - medium intelligence
Yelig-nar: Blightwind; grants 9 surges: medium intelligence

Chemorash: dustmother
Nergoul: the thrill - mindless
Ashertmarn: Lust and desire - mindless
Moelach: death rattles - mindless

Horneater Gods:
The Gods of The Mountains
The Gods of The Waters
The Gods of The Tree 

Forgotten Gods:
The Wind

Szeth Shin Gods:
The Stone
The Sun
The Stars 

Odium and Braize:
The Everstorm
The Barrier Storm

Suspicious Concepts That Could Be Gods
Truth

Suspicious Places That Could Be Gods:
The Purelake

One Thought To be Worshipped as Gods:
Chasmfiends

The Irali:
Spoiler for Pre-Release Interlude

Spoiler

Cusicesh (unclear if the Irali brought this with them or found it when they got to Roshar)

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[Shacharma]

I think the unmade are going to end up overlapping with a lot of the others on the rest of your list

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 minutes ago, Shacharma said:

I think the unmade are going to end up overlapping with a lot of the others on the rest of your list

Oh for sure. And The Tree might now be The Nightwatcher for example. But maybe not since you would think The Nightwatcher would be fairly well know. 

[GudThymes he/him]

I've always assumed that the horneater gods and the trio of bondsmith spren are one and the same.

Stormfather = water

Sibling = mountains

Nightwatcher = forest/trees

The locations of the three line up neatly in my head. The storm comes from the origin (in the ocean). The sibling is now in urithiru but before urithiru was created I presume she resided in the mountains. The nightwatcher has been shown to reside in the forest.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Sja-Anat says she was Made and then Unmade.

Did Cultiuvation and Honour corrupt some of the Old Magic Spren? Then Odium corrupted  some of them again? 

[Shacharma]

I wonder if there will be a Spren of Truth?

(especially given the books title)

[teknopathetic he/him]

19 minutes ago, Shacharma said:

I wonder if there will be a Spren of Truth?

(especially given the books title)

What would it mean to fight for The Wind instead of The Stormfather? Is it a different faction or just a forgotten ally? Especially considering The Stormfather Stormfaker WHAT THE HELL confusion coming out of the prologue.

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder if any of these have been remade and unmade multiple times? Why the 3 part name for Ba-Ado-Mishram?

Maybe:
1. She started of as Ado
2. Was remade by Cultivation to be Ado-Mishram
3. Was then unmade by Odium to be Ba-Ado-Mishram 

Or maybe:
1. She was Ado
2. She was unmade by Odium and became Ba-Ado
3. Was remade by Cultivation to be Ba-Ado-Mishram before being betrayed by Kelek?

Edited August 12 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the singer rhythms as expressed in the WoR epigraphs might be useful here.  The original rhythms might be tied to the old magic spren of Roshar in their original pre-unmade states?  Like before Ashertmarn became an unmade of hedonic pleasure it might have been associated with mateform?

[Elder]

22 hours ago, Shacharma said:

I wonder if there will be a Spren of Truth?

(especially given the books title)

What if “Truth” is a Dawnshard, similar to Change

[The Sovereign]

Just an idea that has been bouncing around in my head; Assuming that the Unmade are Great Spren of Adonalsium that have been Enlightened/Corrupted by Odium's investiture, then could the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the Sibling be "Unmade" of Honor, Cultivation, and the two together? Most mechanics of Investiture can be replicated by different flavors of Investiture, so it stands to reason if one Shard can do it the others can as well.

Edited August 13 by The Sovereign
Spelling errors annoy me.

[Elder]

Thinking about this, there’s a fair amount in play here.

Spren, as well as Old Magic Gods like The Wind and the Nightwatcher, predate the Shattering of Adonalsium.

The Shards of Honor, Cultivation and Eventually Odium came, and Changed many of the Spren, including specifically the Nightwatcher (who, in her distribution of boons, definitely has learned from her Draconic “Mother”).  It stands to reason that the other Spren “Children ” of the Shards were of similar make, Honor having converted the Stormfather (though the Stormfather being Tanavast’s cognitive shadow further muddies it), and both having changed Ur into Urithiru, or, the Sibling.  Odium may have used  similar Primordial Spren for his unmade.

It’s quite possible one or more of the Dawnshards was used for this purpose, Change being an obvious contender.

As long as we’re talking about ancient powers that at least predate the Shattering of Adonalsium, we can’t forget the Primal Aethers.  The Wind may be a manifestation of the Zephyr Aether.  Re Shephir could be a manifestation of the Midnight Aether.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I am sad we most likely wont see an attempt to re-make The Thrill and see what he was before unmaking. 

[coolsnow7]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:45 PM, teknopathetic said:

Sja-Anat: Taker of Secrets: medium high intelligence

RoW:

 

Quote

Sja-anat did not consider herself the most clever of the Unmade. Certainly she was one of the more intelligent, but that was not the same.

You guys have taken a rough pattern with syllables in names and taken it way further than the evidence warrants. 

[duladen he/him]

On 8/13/2024 at 10:55 AM, Elder said:

Thinking about this, there’s a fair amount in play here.

Spren, as well as Old Magic Gods like The Wind and the Nightwatcher, predate the Shattering of Adonalsium.

The Shards of Honor, Cultivation and Eventually Odium came, and Changed many of the Spren, including specifically the Nightwatcher (who, in her distribution of boons, definitely has learned from her Draconic “Mother”).  It stands to reason that the other Spren “Children ” of the Shards were of similar make, Honor having converted the Stormfather (though the Stormfather being Tanavast’s cognitive shadow further muddies it), and both having changed Ur into Urithiru, or, the Sibling.  Odium may have used  similar Primordial Spren for his unmade.

It’s quite possible one or more of the Dawnshards was used for this purpose, Change being an obvious contender.

As long as we’re talking about ancient powers that at least predate the Shattering of Adonalsium, we can’t forget the Primal Aethers.  The Wind may be a manifestation of the Zephyr Aether.  Re Shephir could be a manifestation of the Midnight Aether.

This is precisely my thinking of the moment, and I’m glad to see mention of Ur!

I’m not sure I buy that ALL the Unmade were pre-Shattering greatspren - if there are some like the Wind that remained uncorrupted, perhaps there are some that were fully created or brought by the Shards.

Aligning the Old Gods with Aethers is a fun idea…

Roseite = Ur/Sibling

Zephyr = Wind

Verdant = Nightwatcher

Midnight = Re-Shephir

Not sure how the others would fit…

Crimson = Thrill?

Sunlight = Mishram?

 

[Subvisual Haze]

If The Wind is of a similar god-spren caliber it implies that she is capable of being a Bondsmith spren.  This line draws me:

Quote

"Or to worship the Storm instead."

Was The Wind actually one of the previous 3 Bondsmith spren and Stormfather took her place?  I'm struggling to remember if the Stormfather has specifically confirmed bonding a human before Dalinar.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

24 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

If The Wind is of a similar god-spren caliber it implies that she is capable of being a Bondsmith spren.  This line draws me:

"Or to worship the Storm instead"

Was The Wind actually one of the previous 3 Bondsmith spren and Stormfather took her place?  I'm struggling to remember if the Stormfather has specifically confirmed bonding a human before Dalinar.

I also was drawn to that line. Along with the Stormfather/Stormfaker weirdness of the prologue I almost started to question everything like maybe the Stormfather is not so great/usurped the Wind's place and role?

Is this line implying that the Listeners originally worshipped the Wind? It would fit with some of what Wit said about listening to the Wind and the Wind will listen back. And with the song he teaches seemingly being one of the rhythms of Roshar.

I will also say, I have some thoughts about whether this Wind voice could be Ba-Ado-Mishram reaching out to Kal from the spiritual realm. If she was somehow bound/unmade by Rayse it might makes sense that she was freed a bit to be able to talk now. It would be interesting to see what has happened with Sja Anat with the vessel change to see if she also has been somewhat more free as well.

Side note, they trapped BAM in a heliodor, which corresponds with Bondsmiths, wonder if this somehow can confirm she was a Bondsmith spren before being unmade, or at least is the Unmade corresponding to Bondmsiths.

Edited August 17 by Dreamwa1ker

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Was The Wind actually one of the previous 3 Bondsmith spren and Stormfather took her place?  I'm struggling to remember if the Stormfather has specifically confirmed bonding a human before Dalinar.

He does reference previous bonds, yeah.

[Elder]

On 8/17/2024 at 6:04 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

He does reference previous bonds, yeah.

Odium also mentions that Dalinar is the very first to Bond the Stormfather “in his current state” as the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast/Honor (honestly not sure which remnant is more significant an influence on him). The Stormfather was a significantly different Spren for other Bondsmiths, but the implication is there were others.  This does make a difference, though I don’t believe it’s been fully explored.

also, iirc, Dalinar is the first to be in a relationship with the Sibling’s Bondsmith.  Previous Stormfather Bondsmiths had relationships with the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmiths (on a side note, doing this post on the phone, I really wanted to do abbreviations, but Bondsmith really doesn’t abbreviate well lol).

What I do think they’re setting up is for the Stormfather to be lost as part of the reconstitution of Honor, possibly as Honor, or as War (Honor/Odium) or as Unity (all 3, much more preferable), and the Wind will take the Stormfather’s place as a Bondsmith Spren, though if it vanishes permanently, I’m definitely wrong.  Find out soon.

On 8/16/2024 at 7:26 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

If The Wind is of a similar god-spren caliber it implies that she is capable of being a Bondsmith spren.  This line draws me:

Was The Wind actually one of the previous 3 Bondsmith spren and Stormfather took her place?  I'm struggling to remember if the Stormfather has specifically confirmed bonding a human before Dalinar. 

Edited August 19 by Elder

[Diomedes]

I  noticed Taln has the name "Stoneisnew". Arguably, he took the place of the Old Stone god and became the "new" Stone god. 

[the_archduke]

Given that the 17th Sharders were discussing whether there could be something to the magic fish of the Purelake, wouldn't Nu Ralik and/or Vun Makak be prime candidates for Old Magic gods?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:02 AM, Subvisual Haze said:

I think the singer rhythms as expressed in the WoR epigraphs might be useful here.  The original rhythms might be tied to the old magic spren of Roshar in their original pre-unmade states?  Like before Ashertmarn became an unmade of hedonic pleasure it might have been associated with mateform?

 

On 8/17/2024 at 4:48 AM, Dreamwa1ker said:

 

Is this line implying that the Listeners originally worshipped the Wind? It would fit with some of what Wit said about listening to the Wind and the Wind will listen back. And with the song he teaches seemingly being one of the rhythms of Roshar.

This reminds me about visions Venli have in Stone of Urithiru. Singers singing to one Rythm and manipulating Surge of Cohesion. We should assume they should be able to do this with every other Surge, so is possible that before Odium (and Humans) gods od Singers were powerfull Spren, for one Surge each, and providing it for his singing worshipers. Note that lesser Spren can also do that, but on much smaller scale. So this will also explain how BAM was able to Connect to all the Singers. 

[Tstew21]

In TWoK chapter 27, Kaladin is doing a kata in the chasm and it says "for a moment it was just him, him and the wind. He fought with her and she laughed." At first I assumed that this was referencing Syl, but it might actually be a foreshadowing of an Avatar of Adalnasium, Wind?

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

There is another thread where we are talking about Unmade 

We've also been talking here about whether some of the old gods of Roshar were turned into the Unmade. Brandon has said in WoBs that the Unmade do not directly correlate to Radiant orders 1-to-1 but it's similar. What if there was a sort of Old Magic godspren for each surge. And 9 of them became Unmade, each corresponding to a surge. But the Wind could be the 10th, who was not Unmade because the Wind is the godspren of Adhesion, "Honor's truest surge".

[+Bzhydack he/him]

21 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

There is another thread where we are talking about Unmade 

We've also been talking here about whether some of the old gods of Roshar were turned into the Unmade. Brandon has said in WoBs that the Unmade do not directly correlate to Radiant orders 1-to-1 but it's similar. What if there was a sort of Old Magic godspren for each surge. And 9 of them became Unmade, each corresponding to a surge. But the Wind could be the 10th, who was not Unmade because the Wind is the godspren of Adhesion, "Honor's truest surge".

I have very simmilar thought, except I dont think all Unmade were previously Old Magic Gods. I think there were 10 Gods, for each Surge, they were worshipped by Singers before Odium and Humans came to Roshar. As we can see in Venli's Vision Singers were able to manipulate Cohesion with proper Song, I think conjoined Song of proper Godspren resulted with some Bond with singing Singers and Godspren, and as result Singers get acess to matching Surge. 

So this is how I think they match:

1. Adhesion - Wind

2. Gravitation - Stormfather

3. Division - ? Chemoarish?

4. Abrasion - ? Dai- Gonarthis?

5. Regrowth - Nightwatcher

6. Ilumination - Re- Sephir

7. Transformation - Yelig- Nar

8. Transportation - Sia- Anat

9. Cohesion - Sibling

10. Tension - Ba- Ado- Mishram

As you can see, I left out mindless Unmade, because I think Unmaking process left inteligence level of Spren mostly intact, and Odium wasnt able to Unmade all Old Gods,so he needet to find replacement in form of some lesser Spren. Also, looks like Honor and Cultivation also did the Unmaking, with Nightwatcher and Sibling. Yelig- Nar and Sia- Anat can be easily swaped, but I think Yelig- Nar matches Transformation beter.

Also, I think this ancient Singer religion survived as Horneaters religion. Also if Singers helped Odium Unmake those great Spren this will explain this ancient betrayal they did.