Some thoughts on Allomantic electrum

[metachirality]

In the books, it's stated that Allomantic electrum is pretty useless besides making atium useless. I don't remember if they stated why it was useless but I think I figured out why.

Let's say you're an Allomancer in a fight and you burn electrum. You would think that you would be able to see futures where you die and avoid them, but since those would no longer be your futures, the shadows would split instead, much like two Allomancers burning atium in a fight.

Here's a more interesting question: What would happen if an Allomancer committed to taking whatever path, if any, the electrum shadow showed as accurately as possible before burning electrum?

[Koloss17 She/They]

7 minutes ago, metachirality said:

 

Here's a more interesting question: What would happen if an Allomancer committed to taking whatever path, if any, the electrum shadow showed as accurately as possible before burning electrum?

Ahh good old bootstrap paradox. If you are following the same motions as your electrum shadow, which is looking at the actions you would do in the future, but if those future movements are just following an electrum shadow, who initated the idea of those movements? 
 

It’s a paradox, and you would be doing things, but with no idea on what prompted it.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, metachirality said:

In the books, it's stated that Allomantic electrum is pretty useless besides making atium useless. I don't remember if they stated why it was useless but I think I figured out why.

Let's say you're an Allomancer in a fight and you burn electrum. You would think that you would be able to see futures where you die and avoid them, but since those would no longer be your futures, the shadows would split instead, much like two Allomancers burning atium in a fight.

Here's a more interesting question: What would happen if an Allomancer committed to taking whatever path, if any, the electrum shadow showed as accurately as possible before burning electrum?

Nothing much would change. You would still see all those different shadows. You have choice and free will which stays with you through every single point in time. At any moment you can choose to follow a different shadow, stop following shadows at all or do something else. 

But it would be quite hard to choose one shadow and follow it. There are dozens or hundreds of electrum shadows swarming around you, each showing you a different future. They overlap and cross each other's way, so you would need to focus hard on keeping up with that one shadow and not get distracted by all others. It's difficult but still possible if you train enough. Electrum, unlike Atium, gives you no mental enhancements, so it's really hard to comprehend what's happening with those shadows - it's also really hard to understand them all at once - truthfully it's impossible. But electrum still have some uses.

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

 

[+hwiles He/Him]

13 hours ago, metachirality said:

In the books, it's stated that Allomantic electrum is pretty useless besides making atium useless. I don't remember if they stated why it was useless but I think I figured out why.

Let's say you're an Allomancer in a fight and you burn electrum. You would think that you would be able to see futures where you die and avoid them, but since those would no longer be your futures, the shadows would split instead, much like two Allomancers burning atium in a fight.

Here's a more interesting question: What would happen if an Allomancer committed to taking whatever path, if any, the electrum shadow showed as accurately as possible before burning electrum?

That is an interesting question...I've heard people speculate offline that this could potentially lead to a partial or total loss of one's free-will and self-determination on the basis that following the shadows alters how the shadows manifest, theoretically leading to one's actions being effectively controlled and set by the actions of others.

I think this is why Determination being the Feruchemical element stored in electrum is a particularly poetic counterpart to it's allomantic use. Its hemalurgic usage is also very powerful since it can steal access to duralumin. An electrum twinborn with one electrum spike for duralumin would, I think be an extremely powerful ally (or extremely dangerous enemy) to have. If an electrum user's Determination is TOTALLY unwavering and not being actively and persistenly countered by other real-time futuresight magic, then I would expect them to only perceive a single electrum shadow that only splits into multiple when one is about to die or suffer irreparable harm, because nothing else would change their course of action.

Imagine: a pinnacle-oracle who can see into the spiritual realm on demand. Would they be any good in a fight? I'm not sure; a human brain might simply not be a fast enough processor to make use of that kind of perception and sensory explosion in real-time very effectively to influence one's performance in a conflict; it might even make things more difficult, especially if one had literally even the tiniest shred of an innate desire to avoid or prevent harming others, as no amount of Determination would prevent feedback loops in that case and they could easily be driven insane. However, outside of an intense stress or combat environment, I imagine that they would be like the Delphic Oracle out of ancient history: able to perceive the infinite cascading effects of the infinite potential future actions and choices of themselves and everyone Connected to them in massive uncontrollable bursts of clarity. A valuable friend or advisor to have maybe, but probably not very good at fighting unless they somehow found a way to suppress any and all empathy too.

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

As a bit of an electrum nut, it’s definitely difficult to use, but certainly not useless. You can still make use of the electrum shadows, even though there are more of them than you can comprehend at once. For example, if someone fires a bullet, you’re going to see every single electrum shadow along the path of the bullet get hit, which signals to you that you should get out of there. It’s probably a bit less useful in melee combat, because it’s harder to see the cause of a shadow falling, but with guns existing, most combat will be ranged. At any point in a fight, if you just follow a shadow that doesn’t die, you’re probably going to be fine (although you might have a hard time actually winning.) In almost every situation, there’s going to be some way out. Throw in a feruchemical power, especially steel or zinc, and you’ve got yourself a really good Twinborn!

[metachirality]

22 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Ahh good old bootstrap paradox. If you are following the same motions as your electrum shadow, which is looking at the actions you would do in the future, but if those future movements are just following an electrum shadow, who initated the idea of those movements? 
 

It’s a paradox, and you would be doing things, but with no idea on what prompted it.

I'm actually starting to think it might just split the shadows. Like if you think of atium shadows as splitting because the future sight can't choose between the different paths, I think something similar would happen with electrum, except this time it's because all paths are possible, rather than impossible.

Also if this is how allomantic electrum works, I feel like if you tried to use electrum to avoid dying, like in the scenario I described in my initial post, instead of the shadows splitting instantly you would see a single path where you don't die, which doesn't seem true.

Actually, the WoB suggests that, even though it doesn't single out one path like atium does, you can still see the individual paths which is still pretty useful.

Edited August 18 by metachirality

[metachirality]

Ok, here's a scenario, similar in form to the scenario in the initial post:

Let's say you have a safe locked behind a passcode. You commit to doing something different from what your electrum shadow shows unless it shows you inputting the correct code and opening the safe.

There are three possibilities for what could happen:

(1) You see one possibility where you open the safe. This one is disproven by WoB.

(2) You see multiple possibilities, all of which have you opening the safe.

(3) You see multiple possibilities, including ones in which you don't open the safe. If this is how allomantic electrum works, it wouldn't be any easier to open the safe compared to just brute forcing it.

I think it's probably (3). To see why I think this, you can analogize atium/electrum shadows to time travel. (1) would be like time travel where you can't change the past and everything is predetermined. (3) would be something like Primer, where things play out the same when you travel back in time unless you intervene. I don't know what (2) would be.

A fight between an allomancer burning atium and someone who isn't would be like receiving a message from the future telling you what your opponent did, which would allow you to account for and circumvent it.

A fight between two allomancers burning atium would be like a battle between two time travelers constantly trying to account for and circumvent the other's actions, which would generate many many timelines.

In the locked safe scenario, it would be like receiving a message from the future that you tried a passcode and whether it did or didn't work which would generate a thousand timelines, in only one of which you actually open the safe.

In the second scenario from the initial post, it would be like you getting a message from the future describing what you would've done. Since each timeline is slightly different from the last, it would accumulate and eventually you'd reach a timeline in which you didn't receive anything or decided to take back your commitment and that would be about what you would see your electrum shadow doing.

I think (3) has the advantage of more easily describing why atium shadows split compared to (1) or (2), in which splitting seems more like an extra case that has to be manually accounted for. Analogizing with time travel once again, this is because if you have consistent timelines, it's physically impossible to not do something you saw you did.

Edited August 18 by metachirality

[Speeding Steelrunner Male]

13 hours ago, metachirality said:

Ok, here's a scenario, similar in form to the scenario in the initial post:

Let's say you have a safe locked behind a passcode. You commit to doing something different from what your electrum shadow shows unless it shows you inputting the correct code and opening the safe.

There are three possibilities for what could happen:

(1) You see one possibility where you open the safe. This one is disproven by WoB.

(2) You see multiple possibilities, all of which have you opening the safe.

(3) You see multiple possibilities, including ones in which you don't open the safe. If this is how allomantic electrum works, it wouldn't be any easier to open the safe compared to just brute forcing it.

I think it's probably (3). To see why I think this, you can analogize atium/electrum shadows to time travel. (1) would be like time travel where you can't change the past and everything is predetermined. (3) would be something like Primer, where things play out the same when you travel back in time unless you intervene. I don't know what (2) would be.

A fight between an allomancer burning atium and someone who isn't would be like receiving a message from the future telling you what your opponent did, which would allow you to account for and circumvent it.

A fight between two allomancers burning atium would be like a battle between two time travelers constantly trying to account for and circumvent the other's actions, which would generate many many timelines.

In the locked safe scenario, it would be like receiving a message from the future that you tried a passcode and whether it did or didn't work which would generate a thousand timelines, in only one of which you actually open the safe.

In the second scenario from the initial post, it would be like you getting a message from the future describing what you would've done. Since each timeline is slightly different from the last, it would accumulate and eventually you'd reach a timeline in which you didn't receive anything or decided to take back your commitment and that would be about what you would see your electrum shadow doing.

I think (3) has the advantage of more easily describing why atium shadows split compared to (1) or (2), in which splitting seems more like an extra case that has to be manually accounted for. Analogizing with time travel once again, this is because if you have consistent timelines, it's physically impossible to not do something you saw you did.

Yes, I think it is (3). I'm not sure if we actually have absolute confirmation on that, but it seems to be the consensus. One way you can think about it is this: you see a shadow, which shows you what you would do if you weren't burning electrum. However, since you can see this future, it causes the shadow to split, just like two people burning atium causes shadows to split. This produces more shadows which shows what you might do now that you are aware of the first. But the process continues, each shadow splitting into more. I'm not sure when shadows stop appearing. It might be that unlikely enough futures don't appear. Electrum blocks atium because an atium user sees the same shadows.

In your specific situation with the safe, it actually might be easier to open it. It might require some mental training, but what if you could get your shadows to signal backward in time? Theoretically your shadows should go through every possible combination. Then the one that got it right could raise its hand in the air and signal the code back to you, allowing you to get it right first try. The tricky thing is that all your shadows will be stacked on top of each other, overlapping, and inputting codes at the same time, so you won't really be able to tell what code each one put in, especially since you won't know which one was right until they're done. So, you'll need to be able to get your shadow to actually signal the information back. It shouldn't be too hard. All you have to do is get in the habit of signaling information, even though it won't actually do anything, because if you are doing it yourself, then your shadows should also do it.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, metachirality said:

I'm actually starting to think it might just split the shadows. Like if you think of atium shadows as splitting because the future sight can't choose between the different paths, I think something similar would happen with electrum, except this time it's because all paths are possible, rather than impossible.

The future sight doesn't choose anything - you are choosing. The shadow splits because you are seeing the future and thus you can react to the future and change it, which creates a new shadow to which you can now react and create a new shadow etc. Even if you can't comprehend all of those shadows, even if you don't see all of them, the fact that you can do it splits the shadow, creating hundreds of equally likely possibilities. 

The future in Cosmere isn't deterministic, it's probabilistic and all forms of future sight will show you those possibilities. In a very short timeframe and targeted against an individual with no future sight, the future is mostly certain, but it can still become probabilistic (Vin vs Zane).

14 hours ago, metachirality said:

Ok, here's a scenario, similar in form to the scenario in the initial post:

Let's say you have a safe locked behind a passcode. You commit to doing something different from what your electrum shadow shows unless it shows you inputting the correct code and opening the safe.

There are three possibilities for what could happen:

(1) You see one possibility where you open the safe. This one is disproven by WoB.

(2) You see multiple possibilities, all of which have you opening the safe.

(3) You see multiple possibilities, including ones in which you don't open the safe. If this is how allomantic electrum works, it wouldn't be any easier to open the safe compared to just brute forcing it.

I think it's probably (3).

I agree. However, it would be really hard to utilize electrum shadows for opening a safe. All of those shadows would overlap with each other in this small space and you would basically see a mess of infinite fingers tapping at the keyboard. That's impossible to comprehend in any way, without using something like F-zinc to boost your mental capacities. 

However it's possible. Electrum shows a second or two into the future and if you can enter the password in that timeframe, there will be one shadow that opens a safe and you would see the doors opening before you even start typing. But it is impossible to filter out that possibility out of basically infinite possibilities that will be overlapping with one correct one.

For the future, please avoid double posting - it's against Shard's policy. You can edit your previous post by clicking the three dot menu in the top right corner of your post, choosing  the "edit" option. For more tips check out Sharder FAQ.

 

[+hwiles He/Him]

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

...

Electrum shows a second or two into the future and if you can enter the password in that timeframe, there will be one shadow that opens a safe and you would see the doors opening before you even start typing. But it is impossible to filter out that possibility out of basically infinite possibilities that will be overlapping with one correct one.

...

 

I think is very much a key mechanic in how A:electrum functions. In order to glean new information from the shadows that one doesn't currently hold in their brain (a safe password) and also utilize it by following said shadows in real-time, then the Oracle either needs to artificially extend the magnitude of their futuresight (via duralumin, nicrobursting, hemalurgic power stacking, new medallions that don't exist yet, burning inside a speed-bubble, ect.) So that they can perceive the shadows more clearly, or else they need a massive cognitive processing acceleration via something like era1 atium or F:zinc.

Basically, they need to create exotic situations where there's a 100%probability that at least one shadow SHALL be successful by trial and error, and WILL also be observed intelligibly, within the duration of their futuresight perception.

Edited August 19 by hwiles

[metachirality]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

The future in Cosmere isn't deterministic, it's probabilistic and all forms of future sight will show you those possibilities. In a very short timeframe and targeted against an individual with no future sight, the future is mostly certain, but it can still become probabilistic (Vin vs Zane).

Yeah, I think that atium/electrum technically show multiple paths, it's just that in a short timeframe it'll be deterministic enough to look like one.

I'm not sure if the Vin vs. Zane fight was more probabilistic than deterministic. It seems like maybe it was deterministic but the atium was unable to predict the future because the future depended on what it showed (wouldn't this imply that the shadows should split in the second scenario in the initial post though?). Maybe an Allomantic atium user far away and unable to affect the fight would actually be able to see one single path because the outcome isn't conditioned on what they see.

If it was probabilistic, that raises the question of how it's injecting the indeterminism into the Allomancers' actions, because they aren't seeing a random path, they're seeing a single image of all possible paths. The most reasonable explanation I could come up with is that atium also splits the brain activity/processing/cognition for each path and chooses one at random.

Edited August 19 by metachirality

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, metachirality said:

I'm not sure if the Vin vs. Zane fight was more probabilistic than deterministic.

It's a very special case. Vin technically reacted to her own shadow, which she "saw" through Zane's actions. WoA ch 47:

Quote

He flinched just slightly to the left, open hand moving upward, as if to grab something. 
There! Vin thought, immediately wrenching herself to the side, forcing her instinctive attack out of its natural trajectory. She twisted her arm—and dagger—midswing. She had been about to attack left, as Zane's atium had anticipated.
But, by reacting, Zane had shown her what she was going to do. Let her see the future. And if she could see it, she could change it.
[...]
Her atium shadow had split at the last moment. Two shadows, two possibilities. He'd counteracted the wrong one.

 

23 minutes ago, metachirality said:

Maybe an Allomantic atium user far away and unable to affect the fight would actually be able to see one single path because the outcome isn't conditioned on what they see.

It doesn't matter for an Atium user how far away he is, the only thing that matters is if his target can see the future, because this splits shadows.