SA5 Chapters 10 & 11

[The Stick]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

His attack on Thaylen was subtle and almost unexpected, wasn't it? Dalinar barely managed to figure out what's going on. Not to mention his attack on Urithiru was totally unexpected and subtle. That's very Rayse-like. 

And why attacking from Shadesmar? It's unexpected of course! New Radiants don't realize the importance of CR, they don't have any forces present there, Honorspren fleed is grounded - CR is a free real estate for Odium. And they couldn't use Vyre and other Oathgates earlier, because the collision could have locked the gates on the other side (I think they did it in the end) and the Oathgates were suppressed during the occupation (they used Voidlight to power them, it's possible they could only connect to corrupted gate at Kholinar). Moreover, Odium wanted Dalinar's troops to be stuck at Emul, to distract them from everything that was going on in Urithiru, while avoiding being caught by Dalinar's scouts, which made amassing an army at the Tower problematic. It's entirely possible that Rayse planned a two front assault, one from CR, the other from Urithiru gates, but it failed, yet his army was already in position in CR, so why waste them and do nothing? Taravangian couldn't have organized everything from scratch in just one day.

My problem with Rayse Odium trying to get his soldier through Cultivation's perpendicularity is the question of how the Stormfather could not see the troops amassing. We know that his vision can let Dalinar make the map of singer troop movements. Unless Moelach is actively blinding him to the peaks, I don't see how the army could be unknown. 

My argument on Rayse's subtlety is that the Urithiru attack wasn't his idea. Not really, it was all Raboniel. And the attack on Thaylen City was influenced by Amaram and his men being open to the thrill. And of course, we realize that in RoW epilogue, Hoid figures out that something is wrong, and Taravangian rectifies this by acting way more blunt, less subtle, and Rayse-like. 

As for the gates at Urithiru for being a way into the CR, I think that that is legitimate. Even if the hypothesis of corrupted gates only being able to connect to corrupted gates, CR realm transfers should still be possible, which could be how the singers got into CR, to have an army in there to act as extra pressure on Azimir. Even with this, it seems illogical that Rayse would not use Sja-Anat to corrupt a friendly Oathgate like Thaylenah. In that case, it would allow the corrupted transfers you are hypothesizing, and this would let Rayse drop thousands of men into a weakened Thaylen City with a reduced garrison and no hope of reinforcements, as well as a notable lack of radiants. I would think that revealing the occupation to the coalition would be a small price to pay to knock out Thaylenah. Now, I guess the question is why did Odium not think to do this, but instead put a force into the CR. I think that it is possible that he is not sending the fleet to Thaylenah, but potentially to this Grand Knell, to potentially pull some shenanigans with Honor.

[Cocoa he/him]

3 hours ago, Etedbert said:

I think one issue is that the compass doesn’t point towards Urithiru, they’re using the angle relative to their position to ascertain direction. There being multiple of these ancient fabrials locked away in the tower makes me think it isn’t honor who is the god whose death formed the grand knell. Honor was protractedly dying around the time of the sealing of BAM, after which the sibling locked Urithiru down and Honor was splintered.

multiple of these compasses would have to have been made in what seems to be a very short gap of time for them to point to the spot Honor died.

More likely I think that the Grand Knell is a distant point in the cognitive realm, outside the rosharan subastral, marking where Adonalsium was shattered.

If it was simply a compass pointing to Urithiru, Drehy wouldn’t have to have done the angle mapping, and he’d be much more sure of where they were going. Also, if Honor died at Urithiru and the compass pointed to Urithiru, the sibling probably would have said “it points back here” and not creepy crap about the death of a god. (Also, the sibling saying god, and not honor also seems like it isn’t honor’s death spot)

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Personally, I also think that the Grand Knell may be where Ambition died, not Ado or Honor.

These were my thoughts as well. If it points in a fixed direction, then it's homing in on a distant point not in the Rosharan subastral proper. Yolen (or at least wherever Adonalsium was Shattered) is the most likely candidate due to sheer significance imo, but others include the site of Ambition, Mercy, and Odium's battle in the Threnodite System (I find this particularly likely given that it's called the Grand Knell, fitting with the system's naming scheme revolving around funerary music) or the site of Virtuosity's splintering. The only reason I don't think it's pointing towards the Dor is because we're told it's the site of the death of a god, singular.

 

7 hours ago, The Stick said:

Finally, I don't get how Odium managed to get a whole invasion fleet in Shadesmar, if it was Rayse or Taravangian, and how he even hopes to get them to PR, assuming Oathgate spren are all loyal to sibling.

Probably a combination of the Oathgates and Cultivation's perpendicularity. For the latter, we know from Oathbringer that there was heavy Fused activity in that area of Shadesmar, and Song told Rock that there was something terribly wrong happening in the peaks (and the Diagram managed to ascertain that Moelach had migrated there at some point). For the former, the Oathgate spren in Kholinar have been corrupted to break their prohibition on allowing people into the Cognitive realm, and Odium has bladed Skybreakers who can operate it.

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, Cocoa said:

These were my thoughts as well. If it points in a fixed direction, then it's homing in on a distant point not in the Rosharan subastral proper. Yolen (or at least wherever Adonalsium was Shattered) is the most likely candidate due to sheer significance imo, but others include the site of Ambition, Mercy, and Odium's battle in the Threnodite System (I find this particularly likely given that it's called the Grand Knell, fitting with the system's naming scheme revolving around funerary music) or the site of Virtuosity's splintering. The only reason I don't think it's pointing towards the Dor is because we're told it's the site of the death of a god, singular.

A few things of note:

It could actually be the Dor, if only for mechanical sense instead of textual sense - the compass presumably actually points at something, and we know there's an extensive density of Investiture in Sel's Cognitive subastral that could be the target. We don't know where Ambition's power lies, but presumably not only the Cognitive like those two.

Ambition specifically wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system; the main piece of the battle and Ambition's (and Odium's) wounding occured there, but the actual Splintering didn't. That would make sense as a compass point, because it would be a constant direction in the Threnodite subastral as well and within other subastrals. (Unless that's what the Nalthis Cognitive Anomaly is... but we've got no idea what that is).

Also, I'm not sure if Virtuosity was even Splintered at this point. The timeline on that's a bit weird... I swear Hoid had mentioned something about Virtuosity Splintering herself three centuries before the events of Yumi, but I think that was a fabrication on my part. Three Centuries comes up an odd amount in the cosmere.

I do agree the Grand Knell fits Threnodite naming as well.

[teknopathetic he/him]

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Could be another mist spirit scenario, where that’s not actually BAM. 

I had thought that BAM wouldn’t necessarily be consious, and this might just be her thoughts around the time of her binding. 

Kelek was pretty sure she was conscious. I think that’s partially why he felt so bad about it and wanted to free her. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Etedbert said:

The Fuswd don’t correlate to Radiant Orders that way. The Nex-Im are the Fused with access to Transportation, but we haven’t seen them be able to use it to move between realms. Lezian (The pursuer) only ever moves within the physical realm, even when he is running away from Kaladin during the occupation of Urithiru.

It’s more likely that the character’s assumption that the army came through Cultivation’s perpendicularity is correct.

That does not solve his problem. What are the Fused to do in Shadesmar? They could destroy the oathgate. And then? He has to have a plan for getting them into the physical Azimir. Using the oath gate is problematic. The Radiants could destroy it. You have to get all yor troops through one known point.

[BinarySecond]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Could be another mist spirit scenario, where that’s not actually BAM. 

I had thought that BAM wouldn’t necessarily be consious, and this might just be her thoughts around the time of her binding. 

If Spren are influenced by what people think of them could there be anything to this? BAM is almost entirely forgotten by the majority of Roshar.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It’s odd. If Mishram has figured out that Shallan is trying to release her (or find her), why would Mishram be so obviously antagonistic?

You’d think she’s pretend to be chill. This is almost like beads face is trying to get Shallan to not release Mishrim. 
 

Maybe Mishram is mad with hate from being conscious in there for so long. But at the same time, she said the one thing she shouldn’t say if she wanted to be released. 

BAM is located in the Spiritual Realm, where ideals determine reality. That raises a question. Can you be deceptive in the SR?

[alder24]

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

My problem with Rayse Odium trying to get his soldier through Cultivation's perpendicularity is the question of how the Stormfather could not see the troops amassing. We know that his vision can let Dalinar make the map of singer troop movements.

Easy. The Stormfather can see only during Highstorms. They just need to hide during a Highstorm, just like Odium's army in Marat before the invasion on Thaylen. Venli literally lived in a cave during that time. 

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

My argument on Rayse's subtlety is that the Urithiru attack wasn't his idea. Not really, it was all Raboniel.

Odium was behind everything, all the planing, organizing troops, moving them to correct position, preparing Unmades, breaking Kaladin's mind via mental torture (quite subtle). Sure the idea came from Raboniel, but the plan was heavily directed by Rayse.

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

And the attack on Thaylen City was influenced by Amaram and his men being open to the thrill.

This is literally a proof of his subtlety. He USED them for his plan, not the other way around. He infuriates them before the battle, turning them against Dalinar with rage. He planned this all, he prepared Amaram to switch sides. He correctly identified a weak point in Dalinar's army and exploited it by making Sadeas' troops betray Dalinar. 

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

Hoid figures out that something is wrong, and Taravangian rectifies this by acting way more blunt, less subtle, and Rayse-like. 

Those two know each other from way before the Shattering. Of course they will have a different conversation. You want subtlety? Look at his conversation with Sja-Anat in RoW. 

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

As for the gates at Urithiru for being a way into the CR, I think that that is legitimate. Even if the hypothesis of corrupted gates only being able to connect to corrupted gates, CR realm transfers should still be possible, which could be how the singers got into CR, to have an army in there to act as extra pressure on Azimir.

Not possible. Gates under the occupation were used as rarely as possible, because they feared Dalinar's scouts were watching. Sometimes they only activate once per night - and always at night. It would be very hard to amass an entire army from Urithiru with such sparse travels, not to mention that nobody noticed that there is another army stationed in Urithiru that departed to CR - not Venli, not Kaladin, not anyone else. Plus, some of Adolin's men returned to Urithiru after Adolin got inside the Lasting Integrity - they would have seen that army departing. And how would they get any ships around Urithiru's CR? There is nothing there on that side. No port, no city, nothing. They had to bring those ships from somewhere else - and that required men. So if they had to bring them from another place anyway, why not send the army from the same place where ships are?

11 hours ago, The Stick said:

Even with this, it seems illogical that Rayse would not use Sja-Anat to corrupt a friendly Oathgate like Thaylenah.

Yeah, friendly is the key word here. Thaylen gates weren't friendly to Odium, they were loyal to the Sibling. Sja-Anat enlights only spren who agree to this. 

11 hours ago, The Stick said:

I think that it is possible that he is not sending the fleet to Thaylenah, but potentially to this Grand Knell, to potentially pull some shenanigans with Honor.

Of course he's not sending it towards Thaylenah, he's sending them towards Azir. I highly doubt the Grand Knell is where Honor died because of the reasons explained earlier by others - compasses were given to Drehy by the Sibling, they were said to be used by ancient Radiants, the Sibling went to sleep around the time of Recreance - when Honor was still alive. It would be impossible for the Sibling to have them prior to Honor's death, because they wouldn't be pointing towards anything back then. It must be some other god death place they are pointing towards - Ambition, Adonalsium, maybe some pre-Shattering god-spren on Roshar. But not Honor.

 

11 hours ago, Cocoa said:

Yolen (or at least wherever Adonalsium was Shattered) is the most likely candidate due to sheer significance imo

Truthfully I doubt it's Yolen and Adonalsium, because Khriss once said Yolen is very hard to find, it's hidden now - if there was a compass pointing towards Yolen, that wouldn't be a very hidden place. SH ch 3-2:

Quote

“Other planets,” she repeated gently. “Yes, there are dozens of them. Many are inhabited by people much like you or me. There is an original, shrouded and hidden somewhere in the cosmere. I’ve yet to find it, but I have found stories."

 

11 hours ago, Cocoa said:

I find this particularly likely given that it's called the Grand Knell, fitting with the system's naming scheme revolving around funerary music

Oh, I didn't know, thanks for pointing that out. Yes, it's probably Ambition given ths fact. 

[The Stick]

Fair enough on the points Alder made. The only thing I can really disagree with is Sja-Anat not corrupting other Oathgates. We know she only enlightens spren who want it, but that raises the question of whether or not the Kholinar spren wanted it, which I honestly doubt.

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, The Stick said:

The only thing I can really disagree with is Sja-Anat not corrupting other Oathgates. We know she only enlightens spren who want it, but that raises the question of whether or not the Kholinar spren wanted it, which I honestly doubt.

Based on their conversations with Shallan and Adolin in OB and RoW, the Oathgate spren are clearly intelligent, probably one of them is even an Inkspren - Sja-Anat doesn't corrupt intelligent spren without their consent, which I think it true considering she tries to switch sides (and it explains why this didn't happen in the past as all True Spren were just hostile towards Sja-Anat). And the Kholinar Oathgate spren was the first time Sja-Anat was able to Enlighten a spren so powerful, which suggests it's very hard. In my opinion those two reasons alone explain very well why Sja-Anat hasn't corrupted any other Oathgate spren since Kholinar. OB ch 97:

Quote

He thinks something strange happened to the Oathgate because of our influence—we’ve never managed to Enlighten such powerful spren before.

RoW ch 54:

Quote

“Only a handful,” Renarin said. “She won’t change intelligent spren without their consent.”

[listerfeend]

21 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

Im fascinated by this Abidi character. Last week he wants lightweaver blood and this week he gives us some substantiation info. Is there an Investiture related reason he’s so interested in Lightweavers? Or does he just have an ancient grudge against them?

Just a quick observation, Abidi said that he bathed in the blood of Radiants to maintain his sanity, and then he said that he would keep the Lightweavers to bleed for him. So, my suspicion is that he holds a specific grudge against Lightweavers, but doesn't much care what kind of Radiant blood he gets to bathe in

[Rorzikel]

The Heavenly Ones like their one-on-one aerial duels with the Windrunners, while the Lightweavers are the polar opposite of straightforward. Abidi has probably suffered thousands of years of stabbing an enemy with his spear just to find it was an illusion. I'd be annoyed too.

Plus the Lightweavers seem like a pack of theater kids. They named themselves the "Unseen Court" and I'm guessing that would be in character for the old Radiant order as well.

[listerfeend]

13 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

15 hours ago, Cocoa said:

These were my thoughts as well. If it points in a fixed direction, then it's homing in on a distant point not in the Rosharan subastral proper. Yolen (or at least wherever Adonalsium was Shattered) is the most likely candidate due to sheer significance imo, but others include the site of Ambition, Mercy, and Odium's battle in the Threnodite System (I find this particularly likely given that it's called the Grand Knell, fitting with the system's naming scheme revolving around funerary music) or the site of Virtuosity's splintering. The only reason I don't think it's pointing towards the Dor is because we're told it's the site of the death of a god, singular.

A few things of note:

It could actually be the Dor, if only for mechanical sense instead of textual sense - the compass presumably actually points at something, and we know there's an extensive density of Investiture in Sel's Cognitive subastral that could be the target. We don't know where Ambition's power lies, but presumably not only the Cognitive like those two.

Ambition specifically wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system; the main piece of the battle and Ambition's (and Odium's) wounding occured there, but the actual Splintering didn't. That would make sense as a compass point, because it would be a constant direction in the Threnodite subastral as well and within other subastrals. (Unless that's what the Nalthis Cognitive Anomaly is... but we've got no idea what that is).

Also, I'm not sure if Virtuosity was even Splintered at this point. The timeline on that's a bit weird... I swear Hoid had mentioned something about Virtuosity Splintering herself three centuries before the events of Yumi, but I think that was a fabrication on my part. Three Centuries comes up an odd amount in the cosmere.

I do agree the Grand Knell fits Threnodite naming as well.

My issue with it being anything other than something relating to Ado is that it has a proper noun name: the Current. I don't know why anything to do with Ambition, Virtuosity, or any of the other splintered Shards would be blasting enough Investiture towards Roshar for it to become a Named thing. We know that all of the Shard's Investiture is present everywhere in the Cosmere, but it's like the Microwave Background Radiation in our own world, omnipresent, detectable in all directions, but very miniscule. The Shard's Investiture is highly concentrated around where they have taken up residence, outside of that sphere of influence, it's negligible. Enough that the Shard can detect things in that area, if they want, but not much more than that. 

I just don't see how a Splintered Shard would be blasting out Investiture like that. Ado makes sense to me, because it's Ado, and everything always points back to Ado. I know Yollen is hidden, whatever that means, but even with this Current and a compass that points to it, that could just mean that you can follow the compass to the origin, and still not find Yolen, for any number of other reasons.  

[the_archduke]

19 hours ago, Etedbert said:

 

More likely I think that the Grand Knell is a distant point in the cognitive realm, outside the rosharan subastral, marking where Adonalsium was shattered.

 

I think it is much more likely to be pointing either to the Dor or the Evil.  

[listerfeend]

39 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

I think it is much more likely to be pointing either to the Dor or the Evil.  

But why does that seem more likely than Ado? The ONLY thing we've seen so far of Shards interacting with other Shard worlds like this has been with Autonomy, and that was at the direct will of the Shard themself. I just don't see how it makes more sense for far distant and non-related Splintered Shard Investiture to be reaching out to a completely unrelated Shardworld, than it does for it to be something to do with Ado, who is the only thing in the Cosmere that actually Connects to all these places.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

My issue with it being anything other than something relating to Ado is that it has a proper noun name: the Current. I don't know why anything to do with Ambition, Virtuosity, or any of the other splintered Shards would be blasting enough Investiture towards Roshar for it to become a Named thing.

Who said it's blasting investiture towards Roshar? Who said investiture is reaching anywhere? Not WaT.

Quote

“This device points to something far in the distance. Something the Sibling called ‘the Grand Knell, source of the Current, the death of a god.’ ”

We know Grand Knell produces a current of some sort, but we don't know what current it is, or anything more than that. From TLM epilogue 6 we can see that the interstellar space in CR looks like a dark liquid - liquids flow, they can have currents, currents are useful for boats. A very simple explanation, isn't it?

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

The Shard's Investiture is highly concentrated around where they have taken up residence, outside of that sphere of influence, it's negligible. Enough that the Shard can detect things in that area, if they want, but not much more than that. 

They can create an Avatar with that investiture, it's a considerable amount of it.

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system, she escaped and was Splintered somewhere else - maybe between stars, where her investiture won't belong to any world? In Threnody something similar to pushing investiture into CR happened there - so yes, there might be a considerable amount of investiture trapped in interstellar spaces of Cognitive Realm. Considering that investiture is just energy in a different form, it should be detectable from a far if it's powerful enough. Ambition's investiture driving currents across Shadesmar sounds logical to me - which fits with WoBs saying that Splintering of Ambition had a far reaching consequences across Cosmere.

And truthfully, the meaning of the word "knell" is a dead giveaway (pun intended) - "the sound of a bell, especially when rung solemnly for a death or funeral." It fits with other Ambition related names.

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

[...]

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What stories should I read that have Ambition’s influence in them? Where should I look for Ambition’s influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Ambition’s influence. So, uhm, you have seen it but I’m not going to say anything more than that. Let’s just say that the things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017)

 

Spoiler

IslayThePeaty

Does Ambition factor into Sel, either in the events we've seen on-planet or in terms of where Uli Da was ultimately spintered?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO this for now. Suffice it to say that this specific splintering has had far-reaching effects.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 6, 2017)

 

[listerfeend]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Who said it's blasting investiture towards Roshar? Who said investiture is reaching anywhere? Not WaT.

What else would they be detecting as a the source of the Current? Are you suggesting there is some other thing they could be detecting? 

 

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We know Grand Knell produces a current of some sort, but we don't know what current it is, or anything more than that. From TLM epilogue 6 we can see that the interstellar space in CR looks like a dark liquid - liquids flow, they can have currents, currents are useful for boats. A very simple explanation, isn't it?

Yes, that's a very simple explanation, but doesn't really answer the previous question. So, we're saying that Ambition's splintering did...what? Created a "Current" through the CR? I did just have a thought about some kind of Investiture black hole, but it says that the Knell is the source of the Current, which indicates that the Current flows from it, not towards it. So why would Ambition's Splintering location, wherever that may be, have had such an impact that it has created a Current through the CR of...something? The only thing I can come up with in the Cosmere that would do something like that and is Shard related is Investiture, which is why I feel like they have to be detecting that Investiture. I don't know what else the compass could be pointing towards.
 

 

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They can create an Avatar with that investiture, it's a considerable amount of it.

Considerable, but still negligible in comparison to the amount of Investiture present on Roshar that would be permeating everything from the Splintered remains of Honor, not to mention Cultivation and Odium.

 

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system, she escaped and was Splintered somewhere else - maybe between stars, where her investiture won't belong to any world? In Threnody something similar to pushing investiture into CR happened there - so yes, there might be a considerable amount of investiture trapped in interstellar spaces of Cognitive Realm. Considering that investiture is just energy in a different form, it should be detectable from a far if it's powerful enough. Ambition's investiture driving currents across Shadesmar sounds logical to me - which fits with WoBs saying that Splintering of Ambition had a far reaching consequences across Cosmere.

That doesn't seem logical to me at all. Although that could just be because literally none of the Shard Splinterings have had seemingly any cohesive identifiers. Every single instance has been very different from the others. Sel is a mess cuz Odium forced it all into the CR, which hasn't seemed to have had Cosmere wide effects. Virtuosity Splintered herself, and that hasn't really seemed to cause much of an issue there, or throughout the Cosmere. Honor died and was Splintered and... again, nothing too crazy seems to have happened, on a Cosmere scale. So why is Ambition so different? Ado, being the source of all Investiture in the Cosmere, driving Currents through the CR, makes WAY more logical sense to me than Ambition's splintered Shard doing something like this. I know, Yolen is "hidden", whatever that means, but that doesn't mean the Compasses can't be pointing towards something that has to do with Ado. Or that the planet itself isn't wherever the source of this Current is. Or that the planet is "there" but you can't actually get to it by following the source of the Current for some reason or another. There are a lot of ways that this could play out and still maintain the hidden Yolen thing.

 

 

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the Threnodite system, she escaped and was Splintered somewhere else - maybe between stars, where her investiture won't belong to any world? In Threnody something similar to pushing investiture into CR happened there - so yes, there might be a considerable amount of investiture trapped in interstellar spaces of Cognitive Realm. Considering that investiture is just energy in a different form, it should be detectable from a far if it's powerful enough. Ambition's investiture driving currents across Shadesmar sounds logical to me - which fits with WoBs saying that Splintering of Ambition had a far reaching consequences across Cosmere.

Two things on this point: 
There are a LOT of dead gods in the Cosmere, and lots of death in general.
And, yes, Threnody is a song of lamentation, but we've also got the Rhythms on Roshar, and it's a little strange that Rosharans would use Threnody naming conventions for kind of anything, in my opinion. At least not for something that is that big a deal? I don't know just seems like "Knell" can fit into what we've been learning about Roshar and the Pure Tones and Singers and everything else on Roshar, that it could really be either or.

[The Sovereign]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Based on their conversations with Shallan and Adolin in OB and RoW, the Oathgate spren are clearly intelligent, probably one of them is even an Inkspren - Sja-Anat doesn't corrupt intelligent spren without their consent, which I think it true considering she tries to switch sides (and it explains why this didn't happen in the past as all True Spren were just hostile towards Sja-Anat). And the Kholinar Oathgate spren was the first time Sja-Anat was able to Enlighten a spren so powerful, which suggests it's very hard. In my opinion those two reasons alone explain very well why Sja-Anat hasn't corrupted any other Oathgate spren since Kholinar. OB ch 97:

RoW ch 54:

Just a thought; The Oathgates are likely a pair of Manifested Ink Spren. One is present in Shadesmar while the other is Manifested in the Physical Realm. When the Oathgate changes realms they switch places. Presumably the black guardian is the one currently present in Shadesmar and the white guardian is the reflection of the one Manifested in the Physical Realm. Something of a tangent, but I assume the Ink Spren are the embodiment of the concept of the written word which explains the dichotomy of their speech;  Fact/Fiction.

I completely agree with your assessment on why Sja-Anat hasn't Enlightened/Corrupted them.

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

What else would they be detecting as a the source of the Current? Are you suggesting there is some other thing they could be detecting? 

Connection for example? It uses Connection to points towards it? Even if it detects investiture directly, it doesn't mean there is a considerable amount of investiture being blasted from that point - just traces of it, independent from the Current. Investiture could just act like a giant lighthouse.

13 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Yes, that's a very simple explanation, but doesn't really answer the previous question. So, we're saying that Ambition's splintering did...what? Created a "Current" through the CR? I did just have a thought about some kind of Investiture black hole, but it says that the Knell is the source of the Current, which indicates that the Current flows from it, not towards it. So why would Ambition's Splintering location, wherever that may be, have had such an impact that it has created a Current through the CR of...something? The only thing I can come up with in the Cosmere that would do something like that and is Shard related is Investiture, which is why I feel like they have to be detecting that Investiture. I don't know what else the compass could be pointing towards.

Is the Dor a black hole? No, so why would Ambition's investiture create a black hole? It certainly can, but it doesn't have to.

There is just investiture free-floating in this black, interstellar fluid and investiture is energy. The fluid is put in motion by the very presence of that investiture and that fuels the entire current. Just look at how Dor behaves to see how raw investiture can fuel such a current. 

16 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That doesn't seem logical to me at all. Although that could just be because literally none of the Shard Splinterings have had seemingly any cohesive identifiers. Every single instance has been very different from the others. Sel is a mess cuz Odium forced it all into the CR, which hasn't seemed to have had Cosmere wide effects. Virtuosity Splintered herself, and that hasn't really seemed to cause much of an issue there, or throughout the Cosmere. Honor died and was Splintered and... again, nothing too crazy seems to have happened, on a Cosmere scale. So why is Ambition so different?

Because Ambition was Splintered off-world, not on any planet. All other Shards were Splintered in their Shardworlds. And every Splintering had far reaching ramifications, but Splintering of Ambition was something different, more tragic and violent - so different that it twisted an entire planet, before Ambition was even Splintered. 

On the other hand Adonalsium is dead, all of his investiture was reassigned to 16 Shards. If this compass was detecting just investiture, then it would be blinded by the very investiture present on Roshar, unable to point towards Grand Knell. A spren standing next to it would draw the needle towards them.

19 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I know, Yolen is "hidden", whatever that means, but that doesn't mean the Compasses can't be pointing towards something that has to do with Ado. Or that the planet itself isn't wherever the source of this Current is. Or that the planet is "there" but you can't actually get to it by following the source of the Current for some reason or another. There are a lot of ways that this could play out and still maintain the hidden Yolen thing.

That doesn't make any sense to me. If there is a device pointing toward Yolen, it's not hidden anymore. Everyone knows where it is. Even if you somehow can't get to it, you still know where it is. 

21 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Two things on this point: 
There are a LOT of dead gods in the Cosmere, and lots of death in general.

And none of them have a whole naming convention based on death songs.

23 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

it's a little strange that Rosharans would use Threnody naming conventions for kind of anything, in my opinion

Welcome to Roshar. They call birds chicken, wines that aren't real wines are called wines etc. And it's very simple - the Grand Knell is off-Rosher, Worldhoppers brought that name and the knowledge of it to Roshar and it stuck. 

25 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

At least not for something that is that big a deal?

Such a big deal that it's the first time ever we hear about it? Feels like it's a much bigger deal outside of Roshar.

[listerfeend]

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That doesn't make any sense to me. If there is a device pointing toward Yolen, it's not hidden anymore. Everyone knows where it is. Even if you somehow can't get to it, you still know where it is. 

Who said that it's pointing to Yolen? I feel like you missed the point I was trying to make. My fault! My point was there are plenty of ways that Yolen could still be "hidden" and this thing still pointing to where Ado was Shattered/"Died". So I don't think Khriss saying that Yolen is hidden is evidence against this compass pointing towards Ado's Shattering.
 

Quote

Questioner

With the Shards and them kind of splitting pre-Adonalsium, was it really Shattered on Yolen or is there a different place?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, it gets a little sticky for various reasons, but you can assume that that's a yes, that what it appears to be is correct. Dragonsteel and the story of Hoid takes place on Yolen but it gets messy, because there's some weirdness about the planet.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Connection for example? It uses Connection to points towards it? Even if it detects investiture directly, it doesn't mean there is a considerable amount of investiture being blasted from that point - just traces of it, independent from the Current. Investiture could just act like a giant lighthouse.

That's an interesting thing, and I'm liking that we are getting more complex with the Cosmere, starting to explore things like Connection and Fortune and Identity. However, this thing is the SOURCE of the Current. Trace Investiture doesn't seem like it would be the source of something called the Current that is apparently something important enough to get a name like that.

 

 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is the Dor a black hole? No, so why would Ambition's investiture create a black hole? It certainly can, but it doesn't have to

If you'll notice, I immediately said why that was a silly thing to think, I shouldn't have included it. I sometimes do that just to get my thoughts out, sorry.

 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

On the other hand Adonalsium is dead, all of his investiture was reassigned to 16 Shards. If this compass was detecting just investiture, then it would be blinded by the very investiture present on Roshar, unable to point towards Grand Knell. A spren standing next to it would draw the needle towards them.

We know that Investiture has different "spins" to it, for lack of a better term. We also know that you can detect differences between, say, Odium and Honor's Investiture. It doesn't seem to far a stretch that you could identify pre shattering Ado Investiture vs. post Shattering Investitures assigned to the 16 shards. Above all, my point is that there is something out in the CR that is creating this "Current" whatever that happens to be, and the MOST likely source of that is going to be Investiture, as that is how anything of import gets done, especially from Shards. Connection and Fortune don't really seem like a thing that is going to be able to create a Current through the CR... Which is why it feels like whatever the compass is pointing to, at the end of the day, is a source of Investiture, large enough to send a current through the CR. The compass could certainly be using Connection to point in the correct direction, but I'm trying to figure out what it is Connected to, if that makes any sense?

 

 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And none of them have a whole naming convention based on death songs.

Fair, though the Singers certainly have a ton of things related to songs, and this knowledge could come from them.
 

 

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Such a big deal that it's the first time ever we hear about it? Feels like it's a much bigger deal outside of Roshar.

That's also a fair point, but, counterpoint, if it's a much bigger deal outside of Roshar, why is the first time we hear about it from a Spren who has never left Roshar? That can basically go both ways. I say that it feels like a big deal because of the naming, the Current. That seems like it's a big deal. Sure, knowledge of the Current could have come from off world. Strange that we are finding out about it here though.

 

Edited September 3 by listerfeend

[Etedbert he/him]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Connection for example? It uses Connection to points towards it? Even if it detects investiture directly, it doesn't mean there is a considerable amount of investiture being blasted from that point - just traces of it, independent from the Current. Investiture could just act like a giant lighthouse.

A point in favor of the compass using connection:

The compass facial is built around a Heliodor, the Bondsmith Polestone.
A bondsmith could have formed a connection between a spren and the grand knell, and then formed a fabrial out of that spren designed to follow the path of that connection in the cognitive realm.

[duladen he/him]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:04 AM, AquaRegia said:

OK, from now on, I will mentally replace the name "Shallan" with "Shallene".

*angry applause*

[The Sovereign]

10 minutes ago, duladen said:

*angry applause*

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Who said that it's pointing to Yolen?

Well, that WoB said we can assume the Shattering happened on Yolen, therefore that's a place where a god died, therefore the compass is pointing towards Yolen.

The rest is a fair point, but as I said before, it doesn't work for me. 

9 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That's an interesting thing, and I'm liking that we are getting more complex with the Cosmere, starting to explore things like Connection and Fortune and Identity. However, this thing is the SOURCE of the Current. Trace Investiture doesn't seem like it would be the source of something called the Current that is apparently something important enough to get a name like that.

I meant there is investiture there and some small amounts of it are being emitted from it, which might be what this compass is detecting - the investiture is the source of the current, while what it's emitting is detected, which isn't the current. 

11 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

If you'll notice, I immediately said why that was a silly thing to think, I shouldn't have included it. I sometimes do that just to get my thoughts out, sorry.

Yes, I did and sorry about that. I kind of started aimlessly rumbling about how a physical black hole could work in CR and came to the conclusion that it would probably be deadly to everyone everywhere, but it felt very not related so I left only that part for reasons I don't understand anymore.

14 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

We know that Investiture has different "spins" to it, for lack of a better term. We also know that you can detect differences between, say, Odium and Honor's Investiture. It doesn't seem to far a stretch that you could identify pre shattering Ado Investiture vs. post Shattering Investitures assigned to the 16 shards.

There is no pre-Shattering investiture anymore - it all get assigned to one of the Shard. There is no investiture tuned to Adonalsium. You can't detect anything like this. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

16 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Above all, my point is that there is something out in the CR that is creating this "Current" whatever that happens to be, and the MOST likely source of that is going to be Investiture

I agree, that's a very likely possibility. The source of the current is most likely investiture, but the Current doesn't have to be investiture. 

17 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Connection and Fortune don't really seem like a thing that is going to be able to create a Current through the CR..

I think you seem to miss what the compass was said to be doing. It was said the compass is pointing towards some place, which is the source of the Current, while you think it's detecting investiture which is the source of the Current (the very thing it detects is making the current or is the current).The quote only said it points towards a place, nothing about how it was achieved. The way the compass works is unrelated to the source of the Current - which means whatever it detects, it doesn't have to move the Current. So yes, it can use Connection to point towards Grand Knell (place) and Connection doesn't make the Current, but that place is making the Current. 

Quote

“This device points to something far in the distance. Something the Sibling called ‘the Grand Knell, source of the Current, the death of a god.’ ”

 

23 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

but I'm trying to figure out what it is Connected to, if that makes any sense?

Just to that place is enough. Connection to a place exists, as said in BoM. Connection to a place is what makes Selish invested arts work.

24 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That's also a fair point, but, counterpoint, if it's a much bigger deal outside of Roshar, why is the first time we hear about it from a Spren who has never left Roshar?

Because they've been alive for 7000 years, met a lot of people and saw how useful it is? 

 

I do agree that the location of Adonalsium's death is a possible candidate, but I think it's far too early to say anything decisive about it and disregard all other options. We basically know only this one short sentence about it, four pieces of information in total - it points towards something, that thing makes a current, a god died there and it has a name. We know nothing else than that. This could be anything, anywhere. There are too many unknowns and too many mechanisms this compass can work by and it's hard to say anything decisive now. I don't even think we should be rejecting that this place is on Roshar so easily - recently we learned there are a whole lot of more gods on Roshar, it's possible some of them died and created an ocean or air current on Roshar. 

Looking at this from another angle, I speculated earlier that the compass is pointing towards northwest - this might be towards the Origin, but on the CS map, the Expanse of Densities is in that direction - that's Sel. Threnody is on the very opposite side of the Cosmere star map, so maybe it's not pointing towards the place of Ambition's death, but towards Sel, where two gods died? Or maybe not, because a god died there, not gods. Simply speaking, that's just another possibility to consider. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

The world Knell has such a musical and puritanical or medieval funeral connotation in my mind. I can’t see this being anything other than a term from the Threnody/Monody/Elogy/Purity society since it fits in so well. 

Maybe the scar in the cognitive realm? 

Edited September 4 by teknopathetic