Probably unpopular opinion about WaT sample chapters

[Vin(Diesel)]

I love Brandon Sanderson’s writing. I’ve read everything he’s written, most of it multiple times. I am very excited for the Wind and Truth release.

But the Wind and Truth sample chapters read like Brandon is fan servicing somehow. I’m not sure that’s the right way to put it. Kaladin has a warm moment with his family, cool. Info dump from Wit. We all wanted it. Shallan says another Oath. Check another box on the list of things to make us excited. And now weird Syladin stuff. It seems more like fan fiction to me than like the start of a Stormlight novel. Like it’s just a bunch of stuff we should want all slapped together. 
 

I know, I’m kind of complaining about getting what fans want. But really, it isn’t necessarily what the fans want. We want a novel with these moments, not those moments served us on a cheap platter.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope Wind and Truth will grow on me, and by the end of the book the first chapters will look good in perspective. And I hope I’m not being too negative. Brandon has given us a lot of happiness, and I don’t want to write unfair criticism about his work.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

I love Brandon Sanderson’s writing. I’ve read everything he’s written, most of it multiple times. I am very excited for the Wind and Truth release.

But the Wind and Truth sample chapters read like Brandon is fan servicing somehow. I’m not sure that’s the right way to put it. Kaladin has a warm moment with his family, cool. Info dump from Wit. We all wanted it. Shallan says another Oath. Check another box on the list of things to make us excited. And now weird Syladin stuff. It seems more like fan fiction to me than like the start of a Stormlight novel. Like it’s just a bunch of stuff we should want all slapped together. 
 

I know, I’m kind of complaining about getting what fans want. But really, it isn’t necessarily what the fans want. We want a novel with these moments, not those moments served us on a cheap platter.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope Wind and Truth will grow on me, and by the end of the book the first chapters will look good in perspective. And I hope I’m not being too negative. Brandon has given us a lot of happiness, and I don’t want to write unfair criticism about his work.

Honestly, I see this as the rise before the fall. We're seeing all these good moments because things are going to take a turn for the worst very soon. We should treasure them while we can. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Honestly, I see this as the rise before the fall. We're seeing all these good moments because things are going to take a turn for the worst very soon. We should treasure them while we can. 

You know how sometimes characters get a lot of extra character development right before they die? Teft? Elhokar? A host of others?

Imagine that for every character.

(Not actually, but it's definitely a thing that happens right before a turn for the worst - and also a thing that happens when the author wants us to expect one.)

[Ookla she/her]

While I mostly disagree, I did think Shallan swearing her next oath so soon after Veil re-incorporated felt a little rushed. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

18 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Honestly, I see this as the rise before the fall. We're seeing all these good moments because things are going to take a turn for the worst very soon. We should treasure them while we can. 

This is how I'm starting to feel too - everything now is like an ominous calm before the storm.... something tells me that this book will be like the 'sanderlanche' of the [eta: first half of the] series, meaning after these little happy chapters things are going to take off. I'm expecting a lot of similar 'go, go, go' pace that we saw in Sunlit Man. And I don't think it's going to end very well for anyone really

Edited September 3 by CognitiveShadow
clarified first half of the series

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 hours ago, Ookla said:

While I mostly disagree, I did think Shallan swearing her next oath so soon after Veil re-incorporated felt a little rushed. 

My interpretation of that was she was re-swearing the same (2nd) Oath, but this time to Testament instead of to Pattern. She doesn’t summon the many armorspren that you’d expect from the 4th Oath (though whether those would show up in Shadesmar would be an unknown question, I suppose).

Shallan’s Oaths are weird, though. Hard to tell what’s going on with her.

[Ookla she/her]

7 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

My interpretation of that was she was re-swearing the same (2nd) Oath, but this time to Testament instead of to Pattern. She doesn’t summon the many armorspren that you’d expect from the 4th Oath (though whether those would show up in Shadesmar would be an unknown question, I suppose).

Shallan’s Oaths are weird, though. Hard to tell what’s going on with her.

Good point! I hadn't thought of that; that makes way more sense.

[Bridge Boy]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:29 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

I love Brandon Sanderson’s writing. I’ve read everything he’s written, most of it multiple times. I am very excited for the Wind and Truth release.

But the Wind and Truth sample chapters read like Brandon is fan servicing somehow. I’m not sure that’s the right way to put it. Kaladin has a warm moment with his family, cool. Info dump from Wit. We all wanted it. Shallan says another Oath. Check another box on the list of things to make us excited. And now weird Syladin stuff. It seems more like fan fiction to me than like the start of a Stormlight novel. Like it’s just a bunch of stuff we should want all slapped together. 
 

I know, I’m kind of complaining about getting what fans want. But really, it isn’t necessarily what the fans want. We want a novel with these moments, not those moments served us on a cheap platter.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope Wind and Truth will grow on me, and by the end of the book the first chapters will look good in perspective. And I hope I’m not being too negative. Brandon has given us a lot of happiness, and I don’t want to write unfair criticism about his work.

The whole series has been in steady decline since words of radiance. 

It is as if his outline for the series is still extremely good, and his plot secrets waiting to be revealed at various points of the outline are still exceptional. 

But everything that needs to be written to get from one plot point to the next is utter trash.

The pace is rushed, the dialogue is awful, the characters no longer speak or interact as real people do, and the setting is completely lost. Truth be told, these pre-release chapters have been worse than most fanfic. 

I want it to be otherwise. I want these books to be good, but unfortunately, it is not so. 

Where are Brandon's editors on this? Is there no one willing to speak up and say, "Brandon, mate. This stuff is bad. Lets delay the release and get this done better in a rewrite." 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

5 minutes ago, Bridge Boy said:

The whole series has been in steady decline since words of radiance. 

It is as if his outline for the series is still extremely good, and his plot secrets waiting to be revealed at various points of the outline are still exceptional. 

But everything that needs to be written to get from one plot point to the next is utter trash.

The pace is rushed, the dialogue is awful, the characters no longer speak or interact as real people do, and the setting is completely lost. Truth be told, these pre-release chapters have been worse than most fanfic. 

I want it to be otherwise. I want these books to be good, but unfortunately, it is not so. 

Where are Brandon's editors on this? Is there no one willing to speak up and say, "Brandon, mate. This stuff is bad. Lets delay the release and get this done better in a rewrite." 

Personally I don't see it, but I'm also not a literary expert or snob or anything so maybe I have low standards lol. And to be honest, maybe I'm the perfect target audience because to me the main thing I'm looking for in a fantasy and/or sci-fi series is having the words just vanish off the page and being able to just see it all happening like a movie in my head. And I think Brandon's writing does that pretty darn well. Maybe it's simple and less flowery prose or whatever but I prefer it that way.

Plus, hot take: I think Brandon's worldbuilding of the overall cosmere has developed to a point that for me I'm way more interested in just seeing what happens and getting lore drops and merging worlds and things than I am with how well structured the book is. Please just take me from one major plot point to the next, I'm all about that ride. I also think the characters are still developing in cool and exciting and normal ways, and am totally good with Brandon sacrificing writing quality for writing quantity. Haha if it's slightly worse writing but we get more info and books published faster, I'm alllll for it. I just need my cosmere fix on the regular or else I'm left with no option but to explore the other authors out there whose books have felt kind of sub-par to me compared to the cosmere.

[AonEne he/him in an enby way]

16 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

Where are Brandon's editors on this? Is there no one willing to speak up and say, "Brandon, mate. This stuff is bad. Lets delay the release and get this done better in a rewrite." 

I'm not commenting on the book opinions because mine are complicated and I think some things have gotten better and some worse, but for this: his editors are very much there and very much actively editing the books. There's a big team. Something being in the books doesn't mean it wasn't pointed out by anyone - it just means that Brandon wanted it to be there (with occasional cases of things slipping by; typos and continuity errors happen). Peter and the rest of Editorial don't have the final word, and the editors at Tor (and other publishers) definitely don't. He listens and takes feedback from them, but he makes the final decisions. If Brandon wants it there, it will be there, regardless of what anyone else thinks. 

On top of that, the editors don't necessarily think the book is bad. Framing it as them all not wanting to speak up assumes that they all share your opinion, but people have a variety of opinions! It's not fact. 

And this is slightly more speculation, because I don't know what's running through their heads exactly, but I suspect that even if both Brandon and Editorial thought the book needed another draft, they might consider not doing it. I don't think any of these would necessarily be a primary motivation, but they might factor in. They set a hard deadline for themselves with Dragonsteel Nexus, and having the book come out on an irregular date for book releases might also make things hard to change on the back end. Beyond that...Brandon has a lot of books he wants to get to before he dies. He can't draft one forever. 

That said...the White Sand nonsense. So maybe he can rewrite one thing forever and not care  

[+Child of Hodor]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:32 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Honestly, I see this as the rise before the fall. We're seeing all these good moments because things are going to take a turn for the worst very soon. We should treasure them while we can. 

Yeah, it's pretty much the first paragraph of Kaladin's first chapter. He feels good today even though he knows it won't always be like this. 

[Bridge Boy]

22 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

And to be honest, maybe I'm the perfect target audience because to me the main thing I'm looking for in a fantasy and/or sci-fi series is having the words just vanish off the page and being able to just see it all happening like a movie in my head

Yes this! I find myself losing immersion, and unable to continue to suspend my disbelief given the lack of setting, odd/clunky dialogue, and characters acting like caricatures in contrast to complex fleshed out individuals of WOK & WOR. 

It is becoming more like a super hero comic book in terms of character depth and decision making. I suppose for some that may be a good thing. For me that does not work and feels like a departure from where I thought the series was going based on the first two installments. I expected characters that feel real experiencing fantastical circumstances. 

[Bridge Boy]

@AonEne Big fan of the manner in which you have articulated an adverse opinion. Civilly expressing and internalizing contrasting opinions is immensely valuable. Love to see it. 

6 hours ago, AonEne said:

Peter and the rest of Editorial don't have the final word, and the editors at Tor (and other publishers) definitely don't. He listens and takes feedback from them, but he makes the final decisions. If Brandon wants it there, it will be there, regardless of what anyone else thinks. 

Candidly, I worry that Brandon's overwhelming success has led him to disregard feedback that he may have taken in prior years, and it is resulting in a product that is, obviously extremely subjectively, worse. I would love to know if the editors had similar feedback to some of the items that I have noted. Were these types of comments disregarded, is Brandon only surrounded by people giving him praise, or am I within a small minority that is seeing this as a clear drop in quality?

 

7 hours ago, AonEne said:

I suspect that even if both Brandon and Editorial thought the book needed another draft, they might consider not doing it. I don't think any of these would necessarily be a primary motivation, but they might factor in. They set a hard deadline for themselves with Dragonsteel Nexus, and having the book come out on an irregular date for book releases might also make things hard to change on the back end.

I would be disappointed to find that to be true. I would think Brandon would prioritize quality above all else, even in the face of schedule pressures. His work rate is unrivaled, as is his transparency into the development process. His audience would easily forgive a delay to improve the overall quality of the book. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

Were these types of comments disregarded, is Brandon only surrounded by people giving him praise, or am I within a small minority that is seeing this as a clear drop in quality?

I agree that the preview chapters specifically have felt.....disjointed. However, after some reflection, I may be able to explain that. 

 

For me, at least, this is the first time that I am a part of preview chapters for a Stormlight book. All the others I read back to back, close to 12 hours a day, until they were finished. 

 

However, with WaT, we are only getting small bits at a time. Each week the context of the previous chapters is lost. You only have a small chunk of text each week, and no author has their best words in every chapter. 

 

I went back and read all of the preview chapters in one sitting back to back, and they felt MUCH better. If you have not done this, I would highly recommend. 

 

Preview chapters are fan service. They are not how Brandon intended this book to be consumed for the more casual audience. 

 

All put together, it feels much better paced. 

 

[Ookla she/her]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I agree that the preview chapters specifically have felt.....disjointed. However, after some reflection, I may be able to explain that. 

 

For me, at least, this is the first time that I am a part of preview chapters for a Stormlight book. All the others I read back to back, close to 12 hours a day, until they were finished. 

 

However, with WaT, we are only getting small bits at a time. Each week the context of the previous chapters is lost. You only have a small chunk of text each week, and no author has their best words in every chapter. 

 

I went back and read all of the preview chapters in one sitting back to back, and they felt MUCH better. If you have not done this, I would highly recommend. 

 

Preview chapters are fan service. They are not how Brandon intended this book to be consumed for the more casual audience. 

 

All put together, it feels much better paced. 

 

Well said! As someone who only remebers to catch up on sample chapters every few weeks, I don't think I would have noticed any problems for this exact reason. Thanks for articulating it so well!

[Darvys]

Yeah it's something I've felt as well, and no I don't think it has much to do with the pacing of either the release or the story itself, it feels like subtlety was thrown out the window and I'm getting hammered with the purpose of each scene, it doesn't flow naturally enough for immersion, and character interactions feel off tower-side when you consider what everyone just went through the day before.

I also noticed that most chapters were trimmed further from the readings we got in recent years, while the changes seem small, cutting the short descriptions and other such connecting bits in dialogues makes the text far too bland in my opinion, and though I understand the necessity to keep wordcount in check, I worry this may have a decent impact on readers' enjoyment.

As for the events themselves,  we should be feeling a sense of urgency and impending calamity, a contest to decide the fate of Roshar, spren suddenly having to contend with mortality, Ishar's mad experiments, Hoid's mounting dread and the Wind whispering of new dangers ... So why is Drehy cracking jokes upon meeting Shallan ? Did anyone think to warn her, her companions and especially the honorspren of the danger Ishar and anti-light represent ? Why did many of us have to suffer through that godawful library scene, to learn about spren anatomy ? Would have been much better to get a short scene where Dalinar warns Kaladin about what he discovered, and let his surgeon's curiosity prod Syl for the rest, no need for chull vaginas or ardents clapping in the background as Kal schools a librarian who by all rights should be worshipping the ground he walks on after the events of the last book. And even as a sucker for bridge 4 interactions, maybe don't squeeze them in while Shallan is fighting for her life next time, just maybe don't do that, it's one thing to swap povs in the climax when everyone is in the thick of it, it's quite another to go from a deadly ambush to Kal packing up his bags for a trip.

So yeah, not quite sold on this book start to be frank, hopefully everything gets smoother once the threads are untangled and each arc gets kickstarted, because everything being set up IS exciting, and it would be a colossal shame if it was squandered with subpar storytelling.

[jamskinner]

8 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

Yes this! I find myself losing immersion, and unable to continue to suspend my disbelief given the lack of setting, odd/clunky dialogue, and characters acting like caricatures in contrast to complex fleshed out individuals of WOK & WOR. 

It is becoming more like a super hero comic book in terms of character depth and decision making. I suppose for some that may be a good thing. For me that does not work and feels like a departure from where I thought the series was going based on the first two installments. I expected characters that feel real experiencing fantastical circumstances. 

Maybe he is just getting burned out on the series.  Maybe the break will help him.

[reisleK she/her]

On 9/3/2024 at 4:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

This is how I'm starting to feel too - everything now is like an ominous calm before the storm.... something tells me that this book will be like the 'sanderlanche' of the [eta: first half of the] series, meaning after these little happy chapters things are going to take off. I'm expecting a lot of similar 'go, go, go' pace that we saw in Sunlit Man. And I don't think it's going to end very well for anyone really

I don't think it will end well for anyone either 

[coolsnow7]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:29 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

I love Brandon Sanderson’s writing. I’ve read everything he’s written, most of it multiple times. I am very excited for the Wind and Truth release.

But the Wind and Truth sample chapters read like Brandon is fan servicing somehow. I’m not sure that’s the right way to put it. Kaladin has a warm moment with his family, cool. Info dump from Wit. We all wanted it. Shallan says another Oath. Check another box on the list of things to make us excited. And now weird Syladin stuff. It seems more like fan fiction to me than like the start of a Stormlight novel. Like it’s just a bunch of stuff we should want all slapped together. 
 

I know, I’m kind of complaining about getting what fans want. But really, it isn’t necessarily what the fans want. We want a novel with these moments, not those moments served us on a cheap platter.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope Wind and Truth will grow on me, and by the end of the book the first chapters will look good in perspective. And I hope I’m not being too negative. Brandon has given us a lot of happiness, and I don’t want to write unfair criticism about his work.

I absolutely completely agree with you. And I think there’s a point to this.

I wrote this in another thread: everyone here gushing over how nice it is to see Kaladin heal/Shallan grow/Syl put the moves on Kaladin is getting scammed by Brandon. He’s about to plunge them into chaos. The relevant vibes are “one last ball for Elend and Vin where they finally get to dance together”. We’re going to get some seriously dark endings for these characters in some form or another, and this is the last breath of fresh air before plunging into the depths.

Of course, the flip side of this prediction is that if that’s not the case, then jeez Brandon deteriorated as a writer in a major way in the last few years. But I’m pretty confident that’s what this is.

[Master Silver]

Yeah the prose in this book seem a little canned. But the amount of material Brandon puts out is insane. I am sure if he published half as much, everything would be 10-15% better, part of that would be polish and being able to take time to get it just right, but part of it would also be us appreciating him more. He has published so much we can guess at what is going to be said. We just know his writing style so well. He is the most transparent author I know of, and I would not give that up. If Lord of the Rings is my 100% then I would say Stormlight Archives ranges from 65-85% (I think I like Rhythm of War the least). The Inheritance Cyle by Paolini for me would be like 70-80%. I'd give Dawn of Wonder by Renshaw a 90%, but that is one book a decade. In other words, would it be worth it to have Oathbringer coming out this year if it meant the series was a 80-95% for all books? I am just very grateful for the work by Sanderson. Also, the Audio books help soften some of the canned prose. Finally, I think these sample chapters are much improved compared to their original counterparts. 

Cheers

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Yeah the prose in this book seem a little canned. But the amount of material Brandon puts out is insane. I am sure if he published half as much, everything would be 10-15% better, part of that would be polish and being able to take time to get it just right, but part of it would also be us appreciating him more. He has published so much we can guess at what is going to be said. We just know his writing style so well. He is the most transparent author I know of, and I would not give that up. If Lord of the Rings is my 100% then I would say Stormlight Archives ranges from 65-85% (I think I like Rhythm of War the least). The Inheritance Cyle by Paolini for me would be like 70-80%. I'd give Dawn of Wonder by Renshaw a 90%, but that is one book a decade. In other words, would it be worth it to have Oathbringer coming out this year if it meant the series was a 80-95% for all books? I am just very grateful for the work by Sanderson. Also, the Audio books help soften some of the canned prose. Finally, I think these sample chapters are much improved compared to their original counterparts. 

Cheers

I've heard the comparison to other authors as they write about the same amount of words a day, but Brandon keeps more of his. Which is not necessarily a knock on him. Stephen King also cranks out a prolific amount and I think he's pretty great (controversial take). Contrast that with Rothfuss endlessly reworking sentences to really punch up the prose. Back when he was writing anyways.

[AquaRegia he/him]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:02 PM, Bridge Boy said:

On 9/4/2024 at 12:40 PM, Bridge Boy said:

... everything that needs to be written to get from one plot point to the next is utter trash.  The pace is rushed, the dialogue is awful, the characters no longer speak or interact as real people do, and the setting is completely lost. Truth be told, these pre-release chapters have been worse than most fanfic.

It is becoming more like a super hero comic book in terms of character depth and decision making. I suppose for some that may be a good thing. For me that does not work and feels like a departure from where I thought the series was going based on the first two installments. I expected characters that feel real experiencing fantastical circumstances. 

On 9/5/2024 at 6:23 PM, Darvys said:

So yeah, not quite sold on this book start to be frank, hopefully everything gets smoother once the threads are untangled and each arc gets kickstarted, because everything being set up IS exciting, and it would be a colossal shame if it was squandered with subpar storytelling.

 

Completely agree.  I just commented to my honey yesterday that the shift in style and tone - from The Way of Kings to these preview chapters - is ENORMOUS.  tWoK was truly epic, weighty, atmospheric, and THAT'S what I want from a fantasy series.  These chapters feel more like Brandon's juvenile works, e.g., Skyward or Alcatraz.  Nothing wrong with those, of course... but it's not what I want, nor is it what the first two novels promised.

I chuckled, of course, at the Evil Librarian, but that entire chapter does seem somewhat forced and awkward.

My hope is that there is simply SO MUCH STORY to be told in this book that Brandon has been forced to rush through the opening chapters, turning the world descriptions, atmospherics and mood-building way down.

[Master Silver]

34 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

 

Completely agree.  I just commented to my honey yesterday that the shift in style and tone - from The Way of Kings to these preview chapters - is ENORMOUS.  tWoK was truly epic, weighty, atmospheric, and THAT'S what I want from a fantasy series.  These chapters feel more like Brandon's juvenile works, e.g., Skyward or Alcatraz.  Nothing wrong with those, of course... but it's not what I want, nor is it what the first two novels promised.

I chuckled, of course, at the Evil Librarian, but that entire chapter does seem somewhat forced and awkward.

My hope is that there is simply SO MUCH STORY to be told in this book that Brandon has been forced to rush through the opening chapters, turning the world descriptions, atmospherics and mood-building way down.

I think you hit it spot on when you discuss the feel of The Way of Kings, and the epic ending of Words of Radiance. In some ways leaving so many mysteries and introducing new ones forced Brandon to do this. On the other hand, with Shallan and Adolin, there was no grand pause, before the chaos. There chapters would have fit much better (in my humble opinion) at the end of Rhythm of War. Part of that would be Shallan swearing two ideals in such close succession would have been unexpected. Then the reveal at the end with army gives us a grand pause (the end of the book). Same thing with Kaladin. His moments of respite are welcomed and needed before the plunge, but having the Rhythm of War end with him and Szeth on the platform ready to take off also lends itself to a grand pause. Kaladin's interaction with Wit, could almost have been in the postlude. Maybe these things would have made RoW worse and made it feel like the book dragged at the end, but it might have made Wind and Truth better. Thoughts?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:02 PM, Bridge Boy said:

Yes this! I find myself losing immersion, and unable to continue to suspend my disbelief given the lack of setting, odd/clunky dialogue, and characters acting like caricatures in contrast to complex fleshed out individuals of WOK & WOR. 

It is becoming more like a super hero comic book in terms of character depth and decision making. I suppose for some that may be a good thing. For me that does not work and feels like a departure from where I thought the series was going based on the first two installments. I expected characters that feel real experiencing fantastical circumstances. 

I actually meant the opposite: that I think Brandon is great at making the words vanish off the page. I’m of the opinion that these chapters are great and interesting so far. So what I was trying to say is that I don’t understand why people are complaining. These chapters are all set up for the rest of the book, I imagine things will happen later in the book that make any confusing or strange things tie in well and make sense. So I’m just excited to read the rest!

[AquaRegia he/him]

5 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Maybe these things would have made RoW worse and made it feel like the book dragged at the end, but it might have made Wind and Truth better. Thoughts?

That's a very reasonable idea.  Personally, I do not think the inclusion of these 10 or so chapters would have made me feel that RoW "dragged", nor do I think it would have been made worse.  I OFTEN feel good novels end too abruptly, leaving a feeling of unfulfillment (apparently that's not a word).

I'll have to read the rest of WaT, however, before I can make a judgement about whether it can be improved.