Ruin, Hemalurgy, & Realmatic Theories on Metals

[ReuinifierOfTheShards]

The combination of Ruin, Hemalurgy, and Realmatic theory on metals seems inconsistent at times.

We know how Scadrians can use their abilities off world, how non-Scadrians can gain Metalborn abilities, why Elantrians can't use their magic off world, etc.

But non-Scadrians using Hemalurgy outside of Scadrial? Scadrians do not have access to Hemalirgy because they were Imvested by Ruin (as with Allomancers being invested by Preservation), but they have Connection because they're native to Scadrial. So now Allomancy and Feruchemy make sense to be able to use off world, but Hemalurgy doesnt.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/48/#e559

The above link is to a WoB where he confirms that non-Scadrians are capable of using Hemalurgy because Ruin "doesn't care."

 

There is also an Ars Arcanum entry from Khriss where she comments on Hemalurgy most likely being possible to perform anywhere in the Cosmere as long as the person doing it had the proper knowledge and Intent.

Intent

Investiture

Connection ️

The rules of Connection seem broken with Hemalurgy. The Cosmere is FULL of different examples of Connection's importance and Connection's effects on the different magics of the Cosmere.

Connection can determine if someone has magical abilities or not, whether they can use their abilities, and where they can use them.

How can somebody who is from another system, who would presumably have no Connecrion to Ruin, be able to use Hemalurgy? 

I really enjoy the choice Brandon Sanderson made in developing hard magics for the Cosmere. I really enjoy the blend of high fantasy and science fiction.

But now I need this to make sense. I understand how a Scadrian can use Allomancy anywhere in the Cosmere. I understand why Elantrians classically cannot. I understand why it's exceedingly difficult to take spren outside the Rosharan system. The exceptions to these also make sense.

Hemalurgy seems broken to me at the moment, and actually makes FAR more sense as an Old Magic or a sort of pseudo-magic manifest of the laws that govern the Cosmere. 

Even if Hemalurgy was a practice based entirely on Realmatic theory, it would make more sense, and it would allow for the incorporeal laws of the Cosmere to check out at well. Connection would be Cosmere wide, Intent would be a matter of knowledge (simply knowing that an Intent is needed and what that means). Investiture would obviously be coming from the donor. And being able to pull it off would be a matter of knowledge and regular physical ability. This makes sense. 

 

Hemalurgy being of Ruin does not make sense. Connection suddenly being inconsequential is driving me in loops. Every single other magic strictly follows Connection as a law of the Cosmere, but Hemalurgy doesn't because Ruin doesn't care and just wants to destroy? We know the Shards are bound by the laws of the Cosmere just like everything else. "Apathy and indifference" being the explanation to this exception makes me wanna cry. Connection is one of the most important laws of the Cosmere .magic systems, and APATHY is what breaks it?

 

Somebody make this make sense for me, please. I've read up and down and all-around CoppermindWiku, and this has been my conclusion. Perhaps you clever lot of the 17th Shard could give me the dose of cognitive  dissonance I require. I'm leaning toward an unkeyed Nicrosil retcon, but if there's a simpler explanation I'd like to hear it.

[Sarcasmfiend]

I pondered the same thing. The following wob cleared it up for me a little (I think), tho it’s still a bit vague in my mind.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e16106
 

In short: Hemalurgy is a law of the cosmere… it’s something that can be done in theory anywhere, just like light weaving etc. I wouldn’t get hung up on Brandon’s wording about ruin not caring - I think he may have said that more in reference to not needing ruins approval or direct involvement in order to carry it out. The way I see it, “the connection” to Ruin, is Ruins intent rather than the shard itself. So a Rosharan, for example, could have ruins intent without needing to know the shard and thus be able to carry out hemalurgy given the right intent (want to bring destruction), method (correct metal placed in right spot etc), and subject. 
I think it would help if we had another example of a cosmere fundamental law that originated with a particular shards intent, that can then be carried out elsewhere. My brain hurts too much to think of anything. Anyone? 
 

another useful wob that backs it up: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3214

 

[Treamayne]

29 minutes ago, ReuinifierOfTheShards said:

Intent

Investiture

Connection ️

You are missing Command, which is another important Realmatic piece of Manifestations of Investiture (MoI). But, Beandon has said he deliberately did not evoke those four aspects in equal measure for Each MoI, sine that would be too restrictive, so Just as Command is very slight in Allomancy, Connection is evoked differently in Hemalurgy. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Argent

With Intent and Command, I've been thinking about how these things would apply to other worlds. On Nalthis they seem kind of folded together into the same thing, but I can't crack the metals on Scadrial and the Aons in Elantris. Because the Aons seem very Command-y, not very Intent-y, right? What about the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons, you should be able to eventually figure it out. With the metals, when I wrap this in, it's going to be very slight, and you shouldn't assume that every one of the permutations of the cosmere magics are going to require the same levels of... I need the freedom on each one. So Intent and Command can't be a major feature of every magic, otherwise it's too restrictive. You're going to end up with too many that feel the same. You can imagine, on Scadrial, that different metals would not have had to do what they do in the origin of the magic system. That is not necessarily innate, that is relating to the creation of the magic.

Argent

How it was built manually, almost, by a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense? You can imagine an in-cosmere magic system that is very similar to Allomancy, where each of the metals do a different thing than is in Allomancy.

Footnote: While the question was being asked, Brandon was nodding the entire time until he first spoke.
JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

15 minutes ago, ReuinifierOfTheShards said:

Connection can determine if someone has magical abilities or not, whether they can use their abilities, and where they can use them.

How can somebody who is from another system, who would presumably have no Connecrion to Ruin, be able to use Hemalurgy? 

15 minutes ago, ReuinifierOfTheShards said:

Somebody make this make sense for me, please. I've read up and down and all-around CoppermindWiku, and this has been my conclusion. Perhaps you clever lot of the 17th Shard could give me the dose of cognitive  dissonance I require. I'm leaning toward an unkeyed Nicrosil retcon, but if there's a simpler explanation I'd like to hear it.

Connection is not the only method of gaining a MoI, and Hemalurgy is not the only art where Connection is less of a factor - but as part of Intent rather than a method of access (e. g. Sprouters, Artefabrians, etc.). A person with knowledge and Intent uses a Command when spiking a victim - adn this is creating teh Connection to Ruin to create the Hemalurgic Charge. Remember, you have not "gained" a power until the Spike is Charged, then inserted into the person receiving the Spike. 

So, just like AonDor and Forgery, the Knowledge is as important as Access (possibly more so with Hemalurgy) - but you are making the Connection through Intent and Command, rather than using Connection to access Intent and Command. 

Also, keep in mind that, as a Shard, Ruin is everywhere. Ruin's investiture is everywhere, and connections to Ruin can happen anywhere destruction and Entropy are invoked, such as accidentally using some of Ruin's intent in creating Nightblood:

Spoiler

DESTROY EVIL

(see WoB Below)

 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Hemalurgy is mentioned as something that has "broad implications." But that's of Ruin, right? (Or now it is of Harmony.)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but don't take the "of Ruin" and "of Preservation" too strongly, but yes.

Questioner

But, I mean, somebody couldn't just walk along with a metal spike on, say, Nalthis, and stab 'em and now they have the power, could they?

Brandon Sanderson

If they knew where to stab them, yes, they could.

Questioner

Anywhere in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

You can stab someone and get their power?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy has been built in such a way that it rips off pieces of the soul. If you can rip off the right piece of the soul and attach it to somebody else, it will change your Identity, and it can rewrite anything that's attached to your soul. Identity, Connection, it can rewrite Investiture, all of this stuff it could potentially do.

Questioner

And do the things you stab people with—are they always metal or does that depend on the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's metal, that's—

Questioner

*inaudble*

Brandon Sanderson

Well yes, you could make it do something like that. That is totally possible. But the metal— Yeah. Anyway.

Questioner

With the other Shards you kind of have to be near that Shard to get that—there's no Allomancy.

Brandon Sanderson

To get it, yes. To have that part of your soul. But, for instance, Allomancy would work on other planets. The only one that's going to have trouble working on other planets, right now, are the ones on Sel because of the way that the magics are built.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Hope that helps

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, ReuinifierOfTheShards said:

The combination of Ruin, Hemalurgy, and Realmatic theory on metals seems inconsistent at times.

We know how Scadrians can use their abilities off world, how non-Scadrians can gain Metalborn abilities, why Elantrians can't use their magic off world, etc.

But non-Scadrians using Hemalurgy outside of Scadrial? Scadrians do not have access to Hemalirgy because they were Imvested by Ruin (as with Allomancers being invested by Preservation), but they have Connection because they're native to Scadrial. So now Allomancy and Feruchemy make sense to be able to use off world, but Hemalurgy doesnt.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/48/#e559

The above link is to a WoB where he confirms that non-Scadrians are capable of using Hemalurgy because Ruin "doesn't care."

 

There is also an Ars Arcanum entry from Khriss where she comments on Hemalurgy most likely being possible to perform anywhere in the Cosmere as long as the person doing it had the proper knowledge and Intent.

Intent

Investiture

Connection ️

The rules of Connection seem broken with Hemalurgy. The Cosmere is FULL of different examples of Connection's importance and Connection's effects on the different magics of the Cosmere.

Connection can determine if someone has magical abilities or not, whether they can use their abilities, and where they can use them.

How can somebody who is from another system, who would presumably have no Connecrion to Ruin, be able to use Hemalurgy? 

I really enjoy the choice Brandon Sanderson made in developing hard magics for the Cosmere. I really enjoy the blend of high fantasy and science fiction.

But now I need this to make sense. I understand how a Scadrian can use Allomancy anywhere in the Cosmere. I understand why Elantrians classically cannot. I understand why it's exceedingly difficult to take spren outside the Rosharan system. The exceptions to these also make sense.

Hemalurgy seems broken to me at the moment, and actually makes FAR more sense as an Old Magic or a sort of pseudo-magic manifest of the laws that govern the Cosmere. 

Even if Hemalurgy was a practice based entirely on Realmatic theory, it would make more sense, and it would allow for the incorporeal laws of the Cosmere to check out at well. Connection would be Cosmere wide, Intent would be a matter of knowledge (simply knowing that an Intent is needed and what that means). Investiture would obviously be coming from the donor. And being able to pull it off would be a matter of knowledge and regular physical ability. This makes sense. 

 

Hemalurgy being of Ruin does not make sense. Connection suddenly being inconsequential is driving me in loops. Every single other magic strictly follows Connection as a law of the Cosmere, but Hemalurgy doesn't because Ruin doesn't care and just wants to destroy? We know the Shards are bound by the laws of the Cosmere just like everything else. "Apathy and indifference" being the explanation to this exception makes me wanna cry. Connection is one of the most important laws of the Cosmere .magic systems, and APATHY is what breaks it?

 

Somebody make this make sense for me, please. I've read up and down and all-around CoppermindWiku, and this has been my conclusion. Perhaps you clever lot of the 17th Shard could give me the dose of cognitive  dissonance I require. I'm leaning toward an unkeyed Nicrosil retcon, but if there's a simpler explanation I'd like to hear it.

There is Connection - the act of spiking forges Connection to Ruin. Every Spike Connects you to Ruin, draws from his power. Ruin is everywhere in Cosmere, not just on Scadrial. Ruin represents Cosmere law of entropy and because Ruin doesn't care where entropy increases, as long as it does, Hemalurgy can be done anywhere. Hemalurgy is a manifestation of this law of entropy on the cosmic scale.

Hemalurgy is more similar to things like Lightweaving or Midnight Essence. They are everywhere, but Hemalurgy is of Ruin because you have to follow Ruin's intent and it formed due to interactions of Ruin, Preservation and Scadrial. Awakening is exactly the same - Breaths are given to you with no strings attached, it can be performed anywhere in Cosmere with the right Intent and even without Breaths. Yet, it's still of Endowment. Some magic systems are less restricted because of the nature of their Shard.

Spoiler

Questioner

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do

So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well.

Questioner

And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Exactly. You are correct.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

[...]

Argent

There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

[ReuinifierOfTheShards]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You are missing Command, which is another important Realmatic piece of Manifestations of Investiture (MoI). But, Beandon has said he deliberately did not evoke those four aspects in equal measure for Each MoI, sine that would be too restrictive, so Just as Command is very slight in Allomancy, Connection is evoked differently in Hemalurgy. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Connection is not the only method of gaining a MoI, and Hemalurgy is not the only art where Connection is less of a factor - but as part of Intent rather than a method of access (e. g. Sprouters, Artefabrians, etc.). A person with knowledge and Intent uses a Command when spiking a victim - adn this is creating teh Connection to Ruin to create the Hemalurgic Charge. Remember, you have not "gained" a power until the Spike is Charged, then inserted into the person receiving the Spike. 

So, just like AonDor and Forgery, the Knowledge is as important as Access (possibly more so with Hemalurgy) - but you are making the Connection through Intent and Command, rather than using Connection to access Intent and Command. 

Also, keep in mind that, as a Shard, Ruin is everywhere. Ruin's investiture is everywhere, and connections to Ruin can happen anywhere destruction and Entropy are invoked, such as accidentally using some of Ruin's intent in creating Nightblood:

  Reveal hidden contents

DESTROY EVIL

(see WoB Below)

 

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

Thank you, I appreciate you highlighting the nuance in the differing levels of importance of the 4. I had previously mistaken Command to be a factor of Intent. But it makes more sense as the 4th considering the Dawnshard novella. 

 

I think the issue with spren on Roshar and Elantrians has lead me to think of Connection too similarly to proximity.

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is Connection - the act of spiking forges Connection to Ruin. Every Spike Connects you to Ruin, draws from his power. Ruin is everywhere in Cosmere, not just on Scadrial. Ruin represents Cosmere law of entropy and because Ruin doesn't care where entropy increases, as long as it does, Hemalurgy can be done anywhere. Hemalurgy is a manifestation of this law of entropy on the cosmic scale.

Hemalurgy is more similar to things like Lightweaving or Midnight Essence. They are everywhere, but Hemalurgy is of Ruin because you have to follow Ruin's intent and it formed due to interactions of Ruin, Preservation and Scadrial. Awakening is exactly the same - Breaths are given to you with no strings attached, it can be performed anywhere in Cosmere with the right Intent and even without Breaths. Yet, it's still of Endowment. Some magic systems are less restricted because of the nature of their Shard.

  Hide contents

Questioner

I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts.

Brandon Sanderson

There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do

So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well.

Questioner

And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Exactly. You are correct.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

Yumi spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

[...]

Argent

There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

Thank you! I appreciate this perspective. It appears I've made some assumptions in turning  patterns into axioms.

25 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

You are missing Command, which is another important Realmatic piece of Manifestations of Investiture (MoI). But, Beandon has said he deliberately did not evoke those four aspects in equal measure for Each MoI, sine that would be too restrictive, so Just as Command is very slight in Allomancy, Connection is evoked differently in Hemalurgy. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Connection is not the only method of gaining a MoI, and Hemalurgy is not the only art where Connection is less of a factor - but as part of Intent rather than a method of access (e. g. Sprouters, Artefabrians, etc.). A person with knowledge and Intent uses a Command when spiking a victim - adn this is creating teh Connection to Ruin to create the Hemalurgic Charge. Remember, you have not "gained" a power until the Spike is Charged, then inserted into the person receiving the Spike. 

So, just like AonDor and Forgery, the Knowledge is as important as Access (possibly more so with Hemalurgy) - but you are making the Connection through Intent and Command, rather than using Connection to access Intent and Command. 

Also, keep in mind that, as a Shard, Ruin is everywhere. Ruin's investiture is everywhere, and connections to Ruin can happen anywhere destruction and Entropy are invoked, such as accidentally using some of Ruin's intent in creating Nightblood:

  Reveal hidden contents

DESTROY EVIL

(see WoB Below)

 

WoBs:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hope that helps

'accidentally using some of Ruin's intent in creating Nightblood."

 

I'm kicking myself for this one going over my head. Black smoke, "destroy" in the command. This is a wonderful example. Thank you.