In-world Phonology [Discuss]

[Scoop1407 he/they]

Ideally, we'd have descriptions for the entire cosmere. But I think starting with Roshar makes sense, as it's the most detailed world anyway.

We have some fragments and tidbits about the pronunciation of various languages on Roshar, but no complete descriptions.

1. Should we assume that actual Rosharan names in the books are transliterations, rather than transcriptions?
   The difference lies in that transliterations preserve all information contained in the original orthography (or phonology), whereas a transcription only describes what the word would sound like to an English speaker. To compare a real-world language, the Arabic name for God (ﷲ) is commonly transcribed as «Allah». However, this erases some information about the original language, and a more accurate transliteration is «Allāh», which shows the long vowel.
   The rest of the items are written with an assumption of transliteration. Transcription might invalidate some or all of these questions.
2. As a consequence of the previous item, in Vorin languages, what's the difference between «I» and «Y» (as a vowel), as well as «J» and «Y» (as a consonant)?
   «J» has been all but confirmed to represent /j/ (yod). However, at least according to the Coppermind, there seems to be a womens' script character that represents «Y». What is it for?
   Solved in the consonantal case! «J» and «Y» are both yods in upper-class speech, but «J» is affricated in lower-class speech.
   In vocalic position, we see both «I» (as in Kholin) and «Y» (as in Rysn. Unless you want to convince me that this Thaylen name is all consonants).
3. In general, what do the vowel systems look like? How many vowels are there, is there a length/tone/accent distinction?
4. Is final «H» (as in «Jasnah» and «Jah Keved») pronounced? How about «H» in symmetrical names (as in «Pailiah» and «Jezerezeh»)?
5. What does «KH» stand for? Everyone pronounces it /k/, but there would be no reason for this to represent the same sound as another letter (in this case, «K»).
   I usually interpret it as /x/ (pronounced [x] or [χ], since phonologists seem to despise using χ in slashes). But it may very well not be a digraph at all, i.e. literally /kh/, or something else.
   Solved! «KH» is indeed [x~χ], as I had guessed. But «H» might also represent this in some cases.
6. We see «K», «C» and «S». What function does «C» serve?
7. We see both «S» and «Z». Can we assume that «S» is always voiceless?
8. Is «TH» in Vorin languages always voiceless, always voiced, allophonic or is it an umbrella digraph for two separate phonemes, like in English?
9. Thaylen consonant clusters. Do they have syllabic consonants, making «Tvlakv» up to three syllables (and much easier to pronounce), or really pronounce them outside the nucleus, making it one syllable?
10. The apostrophe «'» in Unkalaki. Is it purely grammatical, or does it represent a consonant (probably a glottal stop)?
    If it is a consonant, then some words become very awkward to pronounce, especially considering the otherwise very simple syllable structure.
11. Hiatus in Unkalaki seems somewhat common (Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor). Are vowels clearly separate, rather than /i/ becoming /j/? It's also present in Vorin words (Ialai Sadeas).
12. Lexical stress in Vorin languages. Where is it? We know that «Kaladin» is stressed in the first syllable from an anecdote in the book, but really have nothing else. And as Brandon has said, his pronunciations are not necessarily the same as in-world.
    The anecdote in question is about Rock stressing «Kaladin» in the last syllable, which is a feature of his Unkalaki accent. Though, there might be other explanations for this; perhaps Alethi reduces unstressed vowels and Unkalaki doesn't, leading Kaladin to believe that the clear «I» sound is stressed, when it really isn't?
    Clearly, Alethi doesn't reduce /i/.
13. Are geminate consonants pronounced (excluding «KK» in various Makabaki languages, which is confirmed as /q/)?
14. «F» vs «PH» in Vorin languages. There is a womens' script character for «PH», but «F» also appears in names. What's the difference?
15. How are the languages timed? Do they reduce and elongate some syllables?
16. What does the «SZ» in «Szeth» sound like?
    Solved! It is actually S and Z pronounced separately.
17. What are the differences and similarities between the continental Vorin languages? This is mostly about Alethi, Veden and Kharbranthian since we haven't seen much Natan.
    I like to adopt "continental" and "insular" (only Thaylen) for the Vorin languages. Seem like useful terms. Also, maybe "western" for Alethi-Veden-Kharbranthian (which might even be a dialect continuum, I'm not sure) and "eastern" for Natan. If there's any established terminology, I'd like to know about it, of course.

Questions about the singer language(s) are missing because I haven't got to RoW yet (there are some interesting hints of pitch accent or tone). Should be soon, and I don't mind spoilers in the comments if they somehow come up. Might also have some more Shin questions after WaT is published.

Naturally, I also have questions about the history of the various languages on Roshar, although in this matter there's slightly more information available. It might belong in another topic, as I don't view this knowledge as relevant to reading (whereas I would really like to know the pronunciations). The same can be said about morphology, as well as intonation and prosody (though that would be nice to know).

Edited September 8 by Scoop1407
Update some items as solved

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Scoop1407 said:

We have some fragments and tidbits about the pronunciation of various languages on Roshar, but no complete descriptions.

References you may find of interest:

• The OG Translation Guide (or how we figured much of this out)
• Coppermind Women's Script
• Coppermind Glyphs

Also, @Firesong is not on here often, but they do work a lot with the Cosmere languages and phonology if you want to search posts for more. 

Hope that helps.

[Scoop1407 he/they]

This seems to shed some light at least on Alethi (and possibly on other western continental Vorin languages). From what I can understand, it says:

1. «T», «D», «R», «TH» and «L» are all apical (no mention of whether they are alveolar or alveolo-dental, though).
2. «N» is laminal (again, no mention of alveolar or alveolo-dental).
3. The sibilants are also laminal.
4. «L» is an approximant, but used to be a lateral fricative, and this pronunciation is preserved in some words as a digraph «LH».
   «LH» is definitely alveolar, but the modern «L» is only listed as "historically alveolar".
5. «H» as a palindromic stand-in is pronounced, presumably also at the end of the word.
6. «H» outside a palindrome is similar to «L». Historically it was a velar/uvular fricative, and that is preserved as «KH», but in most words it shifted and merged with the palindromic «H».
   "In modern times the h character is usually for the same h sound that we have in English. Sometimes kh is written using a combination of the k and h characters, and sometimes it's written just as h for historical reasons."
   But also «H» can still stand for the velar fricative? Or is Peter talking about the in-world womens' script H? I don't really get this one.
7. «J» and «Y» are separate in lower-class speech but merged (into «Y») in upper-class.

So I can derive from this (precise vowel quality is not known):

• Jasnah is [jas̻.n̻ah], with H.
• Jost is [d͡ʒos̻t̺].
• Kholin is [χo.l̺in̻]. The Coppermind article has lax /ɪ/ but doesn't provide a reference, so I doubt it.
  The Vorin languages are mentioned to be inspired in some parts by Hebrew, which is oftentimes reconstructed in the Biblical period with a lax/tense distinction paralleling the length (as in modern Arabic varieties). However, since these vowels later merged, I don't know what to make of it.
  The vowel is tense.
• Lhan is [ɮ̺an̻].

Of course there are always regional varieties, but surely if Alethi and Kharbranthian speakers can understand each other, their internal varieties must be very similar as well. I'm only really interested in the most well-known "prestige" (though I don't know if I can apply that term to lower-class speech) dialect.

Edited September 8 by Scoop1407
Update a solved entry

[Scoop1407 he/they]

11 hours ago, Scoop1407 said:

 

• Kholin is [χo.l̺in̻]. The Coppermind article has lax /ɪ/ but doesn't provide a reference, so I doubt it.
  The Vorin languages are mentioned to be inspired in some parts by Hebrew, which is oftentimes reconstructed in the Biblical period with a lax/tense distinction paralleling the length (as in modern Arabic varieties). However, since these vowels later merged, I don't know what to make of it.

This WoB has a tense vowel (once again I feel vindicated)! The transcription «HJ» is quite weird for the [χ], but it is clearly that.

Quote

• What does the «SZ» in «Szeth» sound like?

This WoB is slightly informative about Szeth. Apparently, both the S and the Z are enunciated, so we get [szɛθ].

Edited September 8 by Scoop1407

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Scoop1407 said:

This WoB has a tense vowel (once again I feel vindicated)! The transcription «HJ» is quite weird for the [χ], but it is clearly that.

This WoB is slightly informative about Szeth. Apparently, both the S and the Z are enunciated, so we get [szɛθ].

Please do not double post (post a response when your post is still the most recent), you can simply edit your posts. If you are not familiar with that tool (or other tools for this wiki) please see the Sharder FAQ. While there, please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have (or have not) read (whichever list is shorter); so that spoilers may be avoided in future questions. 

Thank you for your time and consideration.
Hope that helps

[Firesong she/her]

On 9/6/2024 at 6:23 AM, Scoop1407 said:

Ideally, we'd have descriptions for the entire cosmere. But I think starting with Roshar makes sense, as it's the most detailed world anyway.

We have some fragments and tidbits about the pronunciation of various languages on Roshar, but no complete descriptions.

...

Questions about the singer language(s) are missing because I haven't got to RoW yet (there are some interesting hints of pitch accent or tone). Should be soon, and I don't mind spoilers in the comments if they somehow come up. Might also have some more Shin questions after WaT is published.

Naturally, I also have questions about the history of the various languages on Roshar, although in this matter there's slightly more information available. It might belong in another topic, as I don't view this knowledge as relevant to reading (whereas I would really like to know the pronunciations). The same can be said about morphology, as well as intonation and prosody (though that would be nice to know).

3: We know that Alethi only differentiates between five vowels, but do not know if they have more or if it is a true representation. We also do not know about length or tone.

4: I interpreted it as marking aspiration, but we don't have canonical information on it. 
6 + 7 + 8: Not sure on both

9: Pretty sure it is just big consonant clusters, like Georgian or Nuxlak. 

10: As it is inspired by Hawai'ian, I imagine it is a glottal stop. But we have no canonical information on it. 

13: Gemination appears to be primarily word-final or intervocalic, seen with Cenn and Dallet. I think Cenn is a held n, while Dallet is pronounced as Dal-let. But we don't have confirmation either way.
17: We know that Thaylen is a distant relation to the rest of the Vorin languages. But that is about all, it is implied to separate early due to the separate scripts, and we know that they have a same parent script which is ancient. 

I can continue later, it is getting late and I am not in the mood to go through all of the listed questions. But most of them are "we don't know," we can only theorize. 

My interpretation of the Family, that we know about in any detail, is:

Ashynite Language(s)* > Proto-Vorin > Continental Vorin ------> South Vorin ---------------> Proto-Alethi --------------> Alethi
                                                              > Insular Vorin > Thaylen |  > North Vorin > Herdazian** |  > Proto-Veden > Veden |        > Kharbranthian
                                                                                                                                                                                         > Bav

* Ashynite Language(s) does not mean of the whole planet, but rather that Proto-Vorin descends from an Ashynite language, or is a creole/pidgin of several. 
** With influence from Reshi languages 

Hope that turns out well in formatting. 

Don't know where Natan would fit in, but it might have split around the Continental-Insular era. Likely diverged a lot due to the many years of relative isolationism and separation from the other Vorin nations. Such separation tends to increase the rate of phonological change. 

Edited September 9 by Firesong