Shardblade and lastclap

[Aryon he/him]

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the mechanics of a shardblade and the lastclap:

from the thread on reddit on the cheese Sanderson said
"There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is."

How can you catch a blade where this "shield of vaporization" is without having your "hand soul" cut?

I was thinking it could have something to do with Dalinar and Kaladin both having (at the time) rudimentary access to the surge of adesion but then, why a shardblade should be susceptible to the surge since it's an invested object?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

26 minutes ago, Aryon said:

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the mechanics of a shardblade and the lastclap:

from the thread on reddit on the cheese Sanderson said
"There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is."

How can you catch a blade where this "shield of vaporization" is without having your "hand soul" cut?

I was thinking it could have something to do with Dalinar and Kaladin both having (at the time) rudimentary access to the surge of adesion but then, why a shardblade should be susceptible to the surge since it's an invested object?

It's because the sharp edge of the blade has that 'vaporization' effect, the middle of it doesn't and can be caught with one's hands without it just going through them.

Adhesion wouldn't work directly on a Shardblade because it's too Invested and since the Last Clap is a known technique, it doesn't require Surgebinding to do, just the willingness to put yourself in a near-totally suicidal position.

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Aryon said:

Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the mechanics of a shardblade and the lastclap:

from the thread on reddit on the cheese Sanderson said
"There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is."

How can you catch a blade where this "shield of vaporization" is without having your "hand soul" cut?

I was thinking it could have something to do with Dalinar and Kaladin both having (at the time) rudimentary access to the surge of adesion but then, why a shardblade should be susceptible to the surge since it's an invested object?

The vaporization (turning matter into investiture) happens only on the cutting edge of the blade, not on its sides. The vaporization area effect is happening also only on the cutting edge of the blade - it's not present around the entire width of the blade, only the edge is vaporizing a little bit more than the thickness of the blade itself, to allow it to pass through the material. You need to touch the cutting edge to cut and vaporize stuff. This means you can safely touch a Shardblade by its flat side as there is nothing there that would cut you - just like you can safely touch a sword by its side. And this allowed both Kaladin and Dalinar to catch the blade by wedging it in between their clasped hands (although Dalinar's feat is much more impressive as he caught Jez's Honorblade, which is very thin, thus less space for error).

Adhesion, even when applied on their hands shouldn't work on the Shardblade because it's invested. 

Here are the "cheese WoBs:" 

Spoiler

Devlee12

Would a big block of cheese stop a Shardblade? All I can think of is how hard it is to cut cheese with a knife no matter how sharp it is because the cheese can form a suction to the sides of the blade and make it way harder to cut. Would that be a problem for a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

When I first designed Shardblades all the way back when, I added in my head a little bit of extra de-friction-izing to the Shardblade blade itself, and some little bit of magick-in going on to allow them to actually cut at the level I want them to. Because it's not just cheese that would do that. Cutting through stone, even if you have the sharpest thing in the earth, that stone... It doesn't work as easily as it would if you were just extra sharp. And so, Shardblades are magically good at cutting, to the point that they would cut through a block of cheese as easily as they would cut through something else. Or a wheel of cheese, a giant thing of cheese. Any editorial additions to this?

Peter Ahlstrom

Dalinar does, when he's using the Shardhammer to cut the latrine. He does talk about-

Brandon Sanderson

It does get wedged in, and you can wedge in and hang from it, but I think cutting any stone, unless you have a little bit of extra magic on it, I don't think it would work. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it actually would.

Because I wanted Adolin to be able to hang off of it or people, when they build it like that. I particularly think when you cut a block and it actually falls, then it's gonna still put pressure on the blade. But when you slice into a rock, you're not getting rid of any of the stone with a blade. Where does that extra stone to make the hole go? Magic! That's where we're getting into magic-level sort of stuff, because I'm just not convinced that no matter how sharp you were, that you would be able to-

Peter Ahlstrom

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, or the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Shardblades are magically good at slicing so we can actually have Shardblades that cut through stone. That's your answer. And so it would work on cheese the same way.

Secret Project #2 Reveal and Livestream (March 15, 2022)

 

Spoiler

[deleted]

Given Brandon's answer to a block of Cheese stopping a shardblade, how does the last clap work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll admit, I've been considering the cheese question since it was asked.

I'm not sure if it has to be cheese. But any object that is sufficiently thick but also sufficiently pliable that it's going to press down on the blade while it's cutting IS going to create drag on the blade.

The Blade does, by necessity of my understanding of the relevant physics, need to be able to vaporize a tiny bit of matter into Investiture while cutting, in order to create space for the Blade to continue to slide through. This is related to why it doesn't cut things with souls.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the actual question being asked. I think that I have to relent that, with a sufficiently large block of cheese and a Shardbearer trying to cut lengthwise through it, the drag produced on the flat of the blade is going to tire the Shardbearer. Making cheese legitimately more difficult to cut through than stone or metal. And a big enough block of cheese might stop the slice straight up, because the weight placed on the blade will be pretty heavy.

That said, the top replies to this thread are pretty relevant, and are correctly explaining the mechanics of the situation. There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is.

My current instinct says that wider blades would be stopped by this, and so those of you planning to make ten-foot-thick walls of cheese to stop an invading Shardbearer can continue in your...endeavors.

Remember, kids, keep your Shardblade thin for actual combat (for multiple reasons.) Only make the big showy forms when you're trying to look intimidating. (With a nod to the fact that a thick blade does tend to be better for getting through Shardplate, giving you more mass to hit with. Choose Adolin's Blade for Shardplate Duels. Szeth/Jezrien's Honorblade for cheese.)

General Reddit 2022 (March 19, 2022)

 

[Aryon he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

(although Dalinar's feat is much more impressive as he caught Jez's Honorblade, which is very thin, thus less space for error).

yes, from the pictures I see from the jezrien honorblade like this

I really don't see any "flat side" from what dalinar could "clap" the sword without getting cut. It's a short, thin, and double-edged sword (words from the coppermind article).

 

 

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The vaporization (turning matter into investiture) happens only on the cutting edge of the blade, not on its sides. The vaporization area effect is happening also only on the cutting edge of the blade - it's not present around the entire width of the blade, only the edge is vaporizing a little bit more than the thickness of the blade itself, to allow it to pass through the material.

ohh so.. instead of covering the sword like A is more like B?



Sorry for the bad picture I'm not artist!

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Aryon said:

yes, from the pictures I see from the jezrien honorblade like this

Here is the official Jezrien's endpapers image, with his blade more visible:

Spoiler

 

18 minutes ago, Aryon said:

I really don't see any "flat side" from what dalinar could "clap" the sword without getting cut. It's a short, thin, and double-edged sword (words from the coppermind article).

I should have said it earlier, but of course you won't get vaporized, it will cut your soul instead. A Shardblade doesn't cut living matter physically. The vaporization effect works only on non-living objects like rocks, not on people or souls. A Shardblade will cut a soul just like a sword cuts a paper - with its very edge. Don't touch the tip of the edge and you will be fine. That's how you clap. Not a lot of space, but considering that Shardbearers don't put a lot of force behind their swings, you can basically stop the blade with just two fingers (clapping just gives you more chances to catch the blade in time). Add to this that your soul already is made out of investiture, so there is nothing to vaporize - it would just be cut by blade's sharp tip. This effect plays no role in the last clap.

24 minutes ago, Aryon said:

ohh so.. instead of covering the sword like A is more like B?

If I were to guess, I would say something in the middle of those two options. From the second WoB it's clear the shield does run along the blade as very thin blades can even be fully covered by this effect. However, my drive for pleasant shapes wants me to make it into a gentler curve so don't take it as the real answer.

Still, this vaporization shield works only on dead things, not on living flesh and it should affect only what touched the very tip of the cutting edge of the blade. If you were to strike at a slight angle and the tip of your blade would miss the target but an angled side 1 mm away from the tip would hit it, nothing would happen as that would count as hitting it with the flat side. I fully expect a Shardblade to work like a normal blade and cut only what's on its very tip, which would cause the magical vaporization happening around it, after it hits the tip.

However, I wouldn't put too much importance into this vaporization effect. It's clear from those two WoBs that Brandon hadn't considered how this effect works in detail before. What matters is that a Shardblade is a magical sword, it cuts stone and creates a space for itself by vaporizing matter as it cuts. How this shield looks, when it activates and stuff like this isn't really important and should play no role in our perception of Shardblades. The closer and more detailed you look at a fantastic magic system, the less sense it makes and the more impossible it gets. And some point you have to suspend disbelief and accept it’s a fantastical world with magic. 

[Aryon he/him]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

I should have said it earlier, but of course you won't get vaporized, it will cut your soul instead. A Shardblade doesn't cut living matter physically. The vaporization effect works only on non-living objects like rocks, not on people or souls. A Shardblade will cut a soul just like a sword cuts a paper - with its very edge. Don't touch the tip of the edge and you will be fine. That's how you clap. Not a lot of space, but considering that Shardbearers don't put a lot of force behind their swings, you can basically stop the blade with just two fingers (clapping just gives you more chances to catch the blade in time). Add to this that your soul already is made out of investiture, so there is nothing to vaporize - it would just be cut by blade's sharp tip. This effect plays no role in the last clap.

So the vaporization effect happens only when cutting non-living object, yes that's true, but by your words if you get "cut by the blade sharp tip" your soul would get cut, wouldn't it? And the blade would pass through the skin with a fuzzy effect.

 

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

However, I wouldn't put too much importance into this vaporization effect. It's clear from those two WoBs that Brandon hadn't considered how this effect works in detail before. What matters is that a Shardblade is a magical sword, it cuts stone and creates a space for itself by vaporizing matter as it cuts. How this shield looks, when it activates and stuff like this isn't really important and should play no role in our perception of Shardblades. The closer and more detailed you look at a fantastic magic system, the less sense it makes and the more impossible it gets. And some point you have to suspend disbelief and accept it’s a fantastical world with magic. 

I agree with you. I mean I would agree with you if it was another author, maybe Sanderson has got me spoiled with the consistency of his magic system so it kinda bugs me when I find situation where effects aren't what I expect them to be.

Still I will take your advice by heart.

 

On this note I was reading this passage on Oathbringer chapter 38:

Quote

The Shardbearer pressed his hand against the incline leading up toward the Voidbringer, and again the stone seemed to writhe. Steps formed in the rock, as if it were made of wax that could flow and be shaped. The Shardbearer extended his hand to the side, and a massive, glowing hammer appeared there.
He charged upward toward the Voidbringer.

What's the use of a shardhammer if you have something that cut everything?

[+hwiles]

Something important to bear in mind here also is that getting a shallow cut from a shardblade does not sever one's soul; in all on-page instances that I'm aware of, a limb or body part had to be sliced clean through it's center in order to have an effect and near-misses do not seem to count or cause injury (aside from heat-of-the-moment panic).

So...I would expect last-clappers to have a surprising bit of wiggle-room with allowing the blades to bite into their flesh a little and for this added friction and resistance to help tremendously in staggering and wrenching the blade from any overly confident shardbearer who is swinging too loosely.

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, Aryon said:

So the vaporization effect happens only when cutting non-living object, yes that's true, but by your words if you get "cut by the blade sharp tip" your soul would get cut, wouldn't it? And the blade would pass through the skin with a fuzzy effect.

Yes.

52 minutes ago, Aryon said:

What's the use of a shardhammer if you have something that cut everything?

Because you want to smash something? Dalinar in WoK used his massive hammer to crush rocks when digging a latrine, while his Shardblade proved to be less than ideal for this task - it helped separating rock into smaller pieces, but a Shardblade can't crush them, you still can't lift up those rocks. Cutting isn't always ideal. A warhammer is much better against armor than a blade, especially against infested armor. A Shardhammer would be much better against enemies like Chasmfiends because you can't separate their body parts with a Shardblade, crushing them instead with a hammer would be a far better tactic.  And a Shardhammer would still mess up your spirit web if it were to get into your body. It's dangerous.

Moreover, Shardblades make bodies drop where they were standing. This creates a pile of bodies around a Shardbearer, which restricts their movements and is an obstacle during fighting - a Shardbearer needs a lot of clear space to fight with their massive weapons. A Shardhammer won't do that, it will just toss bodies away from a Shardbearer, providing a clear, flat space around them, ideal for fighting. Shardblades are sometimes too good at cutting. 

It also might be a matter of personal preference, just like Kaladin likes to use a spear, another Radiant might be more comfortable with a hammer.

WoK ch 28:

Quote

“Wouldn’t the Blade be more efficient?” asked a dry, feminine voice.
[...]
“The rockwork,” Navani said, nodding to the trough. “Now, I wouldn’t presume to make judgments; hitting things is a masculine art. But are you not in the possession of a sword that can cut through stone as easily as—I once had it described to me—a highstorm blows over a Herdazian?”
Dalinar looked back at the rocks. Then he raised his hammer again and slammed it into the stones, making a satisfying crunch. “Shardblades are too good at cutting.”
“Curious,” she said. “I’ll do my best to pretend there was sense in that. As an aside, has it ever struck you that most masculine arts deal with destroying, while feminine arts deal with creation?”
“I do use the Blade to cut down the sides and middle. But I still have to break up the rocks. Have you ever tried to lift out a chunk of stone that has been sliced by a Shardblade?”
“I can’t say that I have.”
“It’s not easy.” Bang! “Blades make a very thin cut. The rocks still press against one another. It’s hard to grasp or move them.” Bang! “It’s more complicated than it seems.” Bang! “This is the best way.”

WoK ch 56:

Quote

Just to the side lay a large Shardbearer’s hammer, fallen where Sadeas had apparently dropped it. Dalinar leaped forward, dropping his Blade and grabbing the hammer. He roared as he slammed it into the group, tossing a dozen Parshendi away from him, then turned and swung again on the other side. Bodies sprayed into the air, hurled backward.
The hammer worked better in such close quarters; the Blade would simply have killed the men, dropping their corpses to the ground, leaving him still pressed and pinned. The hammer, however, flung the bodies away. He leaped into the middle of the area he’d just cleared, positioning himself with one foot on either side of the fallen Sadeas. He began the process of summoning his Blade again and laid about him with the hammer, scattering his enemies.

 

Spoiler

Argent

At one point Syl turns into a hammer when Kaladin fights Szeth. Are there any actual advantages to a Shardhammer over a Shardblade or knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Very minimal. It has mostly to do with a-- How much thrust or swing or things you can get to it. The impact of blade or weapon against armor is not going to be-- The hammer could in some ways get more leverage. But it's not that the impact is going to do--

Kurkistan

So it didn't help against Szeth.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Argent

It was like the flow of the fight was-- Syl turned--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, the Shardfork. A very versatile, Shard-whatever. Would it be possible to do, like, a Shardrock, or something, that would go in a catapult?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it has more variety than people would think, but it isn't limitless, what they can become. But that would totally be possible.

Questioner

And what would a Shardrock do if it hits you?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, bean them on the head and be really strong. If you can get into the spirit, if you can start getting past the skin and stuff, you can do some serious damage.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[Treamayne]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:32 AM, Aryon said:

from the thread on reddit on the cheese Sanderson said
"There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is."

How can you catch a blade where this "shield of vaporization" is without having your "hand soul" cut?

I think many of the replies have provided great information, but the details seem to have skipped the heart of the question. The "vaporization" is a Required secondary power that basically says "for this blade to be able to cut through a non-living object, it must convert an amount of the object into investiture equal to slightly wider that the blade width." However, Shardblades (live or deadeye) do not have an omnipresent "forcefield" of vaporization that will destroy anything touching the edge - when not actually cutting. If that were true, the "blocks" they use for practice would not work. If that were true, bumping a friend with the side of the blade would cause damage. We do not see any of that in-text. The vaporization happenes if, and only if, the edge is actively cutting inanimate objects - as a way for the blade to reduce friction and complete the cut. 

Part of this may also be Intent, such as when Adolin pushes Maya into the cliff so he can hang from the blade (WoK and OB). He's olding it sideways (blade pointing left or right, but not down), but he's also using the Intent that once placed, it stays stationary. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Devlee12

Would a big block of cheese stop a Shardblade? All I can think of is how hard it is to cut cheese with a knife no matter how sharp it is because the cheese can form a suction to the sides of the blade and make it way harder to cut. Would that be a problem for a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

When I first designed Shardblades all the way back when, I added in my head a little bit of extra de-friction-izing to the Shardblade blade itself, and some little bit of magick-in going on to allow them to actually cut at the level I want them to. Because it's not just cheese that would do that. Cutting through stone, even if you have the sharpest thing in the earth, that stone... It doesn't work as easily as it would if you were just extra sharp. And so, Shardblades are magically good at cutting, to the point that they would cut through a block of cheese as easily as they would cut through something else. Or a wheel of cheese, a giant thing of cheese. Any editorial additions to this?

Peter Ahlstrom

Dalinar does, when he's using the Shardhammer to cut the latrine. He does talk about-

Brandon Sanderson

It does get wedged in, and you can wedge in and hang from it, but I think cutting any stone, unless you have a little bit of extra magic on it, I don't think it would work. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it actually would.

Because I wanted Adolin to be able to hang off of it or people, when they build it like that. I particularly think when you cut a block and it actually falls, then it's gonna still put pressure on the blade. But when you slice into a rock, you're not getting rid of any of the stone with a blade. Where does that extra stone to make the hole go? Magic! That's where we're getting into magic-level sort of stuff, because I'm just not convinced that no matter how sharp you were, that you would be able to-

Peter Ahlstrom

Does it go to the Cognitive Realm, or the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Shardblades are magically good at slicing so we can actually have Shardblades that cut through stone. That's your answer. And so it would work on cheese the same way.

Secret Project #2 Reveal and Livestream (March 15, 2022)

Quote

[deleted]

Given Brandon's answer to a block of Cheese stopping a shardblade, how does the last clap work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll admit, I've been considering the cheese question since it was asked.

I'm not sure if it has to be cheese. But any object that is sufficiently thick but also sufficiently pliable that it's going to press down on the blade while it's cutting IS going to create drag on the blade.

The Blade does, by necessity of my understanding of the relevant physics, need to be able to vaporize a tiny bit of matter into Investiture while cutting, in order to create space for the Blade to continue to slide through. This is related to why it doesn't cut things with souls.

At the same time, I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the actual question being asked. I think that I have to relent that, with a sufficiently large block of cheese and a Shardbearer trying to cut lengthwise through it, the drag produced on the flat of the blade is going to tire the Shardbearer. Making cheese legitimately more difficult to cut through than stone or metal. And a big enough block of cheese might stop the slice straight up, because the weight placed on the blade will be pretty heavy.

That said, the top replies to this thread are pretty relevant, and are correctly explaining the mechanics of the situation. There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is.

My current instinct says that wider blades would be stopped by this, and so those of you planning to make ten-foot-thick walls of cheese to stop an invading Shardbearer can continue in your...endeavors.

Remember, kids, keep your Shardblade thin for actual combat (for multiple reasons.) Only make the big showy forms when you're trying to look intimidating. (With a nod to the fact that a thick blade does tend to be better for getting through Shardplate, giving you more mass to hit with. Choose Adolin's Blade for Shardplate Duels. Szeth/Jezrien's Honorblade for cheese.)

General Reddit 2022 (March 19, 2022)

I beleive this is the WoB you were originally referencing, but this WoB does not show the entire Reddit dicussion (that is referenced in the WoB) which was about a Wall of Cheese stopping a Shardblade. 

So, adding friction to the side of the blade is a funtional way to parry/block the shardblade - including the "last clap" which is a dangerous way to prevent the cutting edge from connecting by adding palm-friction to the sides.  As mentioned in text, this mostly works only because people that are used to using shardblades do not use much force (it's unneccessary to their function and needlessly tires the shardbearer) - and that makes this possible. A shardbearer expecting such a move could simply swing a bit harder and faster with that blow and likely prevent the last clap from working. 

Hope that helps