Wind and Truth Chapters 12 & 13

[BinarySecond]

https://reactormag.com/read-wind-and-truth-by-brandon-sanderson-chapters-12-and-13/

 

Creationspren are armour! And they're so freaking cute! 
 

"MOM! MOM! MOM! DID WE DO GOOD??"

It answers the question of the little voices from last week

Holding in the tears reading Kaladin's farewell to Bridge 4. Such a wonderful scene.

Sja-Anat is a menace! She can't keep getting away with it!

 

Szeth is so funny; stoic as heck.

 

Syl as the author theory utterly destroyed.

Edited September 10 by BinarySecond
Fixed the title?

[Siamer]

Anyone notice how in the drawing of Urithiru most of the Oathgate spren pairs are black and grey, not black and white? I wonder of this means most of the Oathgate spren are going to choose "freedom" whatever that means.

[basement_boi he/him]

The only thought that came to my minds when Kaladin mentioned that he and Adolin are brothers now was the Death Rattle about standing over the body of a brother and weeping. “Is it his blood or mine? What have we done?”

And that scares the living crap out of me.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

So while we all suspected the Creationspren will be Lighweaver Armor, it is good to have confirmation. But what is new, we didnt know about Creationspren tendency to imitate beads in Shadesmar, however we shoud consider tis, because they like to make themselves into real things, and beads are their representation in Shadesmar. This is logical, but also super powerfull in Shadesmar - altho I'm not sure if Creationspren-bead can be Mannifested into real thing, it still gives Knight enormous control over bead ocean.

[the_archduke]

Shallan's 4 truth is confirmed, as she has plate.  Does this mean when she acknowledges that by killing her mother the Herald she did end the world, and it was (or wasn't) her fault, she becomes a 5th ideal Lightweaver?

 

Now it makes me wonder if she or Kaladin got to the 4th ideal first.  Once Dalinar knows, does he try to put her in the line of succession too? 

Kaladin's was flashier, but she was in Shadesmar so the armor couldn't immediately manifest.  Anyone know how that timeline works?

Edited September 9 by the_archduke

[The Sovereign]

4 hours ago, Siamer said:

Anyone notice how in the drawing of Urithiru most of the Oathgate spren pairs are black and grey, not black and white? I wonder of this means most of the Oathgate spren are going to choose "freedom" whatever that means.

I suspect you are on the right track, but not all the way the way there. If the drawing were colored, I'd guess the gray would be Red. I don't think it is a matter of them trending toward choosing to allow Sja-Anat to Corrupt/Enlighten them, I suspect the Oathgate Spren depicted as Grey are already Corrupted/Enlightened. The Oathgate Spren are Manifested Ink Spren which I'm increasingly convinced are the embodiment of the concept of the written word. The limited dialogue we have from Ivory and Blended shows that they view the world as a whole in a dichotomy of Is/Is Not. This makes a lot of sense as I'm pretty sure the Black/White aesthetic is a physical depiction of Fact/Fiction. The "Freedom" the Inkspren refers to may be the ability to see the world in the "Maybe" so to speak after being Corrupted/Enlightened.

Edited September 9 by The Sovereign
Grammar matters...

[+Bzhydack he/him]

14 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Now it makes me wonder if she or Kaladin got to the 4th ideal first.  Once Dalinar knows, does he try to put her in the line of succession too? 

This would be preaty wild, and also funny, because Adolin refuses to be Dalinar succesor, and this way it will come back tho the same family in circle

[Diomedes]

This chapter made me think of the story Wit told Kaladin in prison in WoR: of Fleet who raced the Wind from the East to Shinovar, where he died. This was even then meant as a metaphor for Kaladin. He is now literally going to Shinovar... 

All those goodbyes seem so final to me. But of course, he is the witness to our epigraphs. Maybe he is metaphorically going to die or be stuck in the Spiritual Realm.   

Also racing the capitial w Wind does have a new meaning now. I am sure this story was some sort of foreshadowing of what is going to happen between Kaladin and the Wind in Shinovar this book.

Edited September 9 by Diomedes
typo East not West

[alder24]

Storms, all those goodbyes feel so final, it makes me really anxious, but on the other hand the promise Kal and Shallan made gives me hope. I'm starting to imagine that it might take years before they meet again, Shallan wandering into Cosmere and hunting Ghostbloods, Kaladin stuck as the king of Urithiru, Honor or something like that, but one day they will grab that drink, I'm sure of this! It was a good way to give us hope.

The words Kaladin said to the Bridge Four and Sigzil, that the Windrunners will remain a force of good and that Sig will be a good leader, I know where this thread is leading. Sigzil will make a mistake and he will abandon Windrunners questioning if Honor was ever good - it's all in TSM. And because I know this is coming, it's making me even more anxious! Strom you Brandon!

Those Creationspren are like cute puppies. I love them, Shallan should make them into Shardpuppies. It's weird that Kal's Windspren aren't as eager and talkative. And because those Creationspren are new to this, we have confirmation that they are Pattern's plate, not Testament's. On the other hand we have another confirmation that Testament as a Deadeye is capable of opening Oathgates - which means she could do it at the end of WoR, as some theorized. 

Quote

Inwardly Shallan snickered, imagining them summoning their armor in battle and ending up with a pot on their head, a barrel around their middle, and various bathroom appliances stuck to their arms. So that was an image Radiant had to live with. That girl’s imagination. Honestly.

This. I NEED to see this!!!

Sja-Anat corrupting Oathgate spren again (confirmed that both are Inkspren) is a big deal, especially the reason for accepting her Enlightenment. They felt oppressed by Radiants. This is alarming. This explains why Kholinar's spren chose to be Enlightened. But what would happen if most of the Oathgate spren chose this path? What are they planning to do next? Would they stop being Fabrials? Would they just allow anyone to pass through, or would they prevent anyone from using gates? Because spren said they aren't of Odium, they are free, this makes Sja-Anat look more active in her pursuit of freedom and godhood after Taravangian's Ascension. Did she think she can be more open after Rayse's death, or maybe Taravangian is fine with this? So many questions!

And it's interesting that it was suggested Oathgate spren exist in two places at once. Weird. 

Wonder what Szeth was doing in the meantime. Kal was saying goodbye to everyone, did Szeth meet with Lift at least? Talk to someone? Anything at all, or was he just waiting for Kal all this time sitting in the shadows of his mind?

Kal and Syl holding hands at the ends was nice. I'm not getting into any Sylladin ship discussion, just stating it was a nice way to end the part one.

Speaking of part one, it's Day One in this book. Usually SA books are separated into 5 parts. Does this mean there would be 10 days (10 parts) in this book, or 5 days (parts) and no contest? Or there will be like days 2-4, squeezing more days into one part? Brandon is playing with us by switching parts to days!

Lastly, I wonder if you can use Urithiru in the CR as a building. It's a solid crystal/glass, you should be able to walk on it, so can you make it into a city in the Shadesmar? It's free real estate.

 

37 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

The only thought that came to my minds when Kaladin mentioned that he and Adolin are brothers now was the Death Rattle about standing over the body of a brother and weeping. “Is it his blood or mine? What have we done?”

And that scares the living crap out of me.

That... makes too much sense. Please don't Brandon  

[the_archduke]

I always assumed the white spren was a Lightspren.  The other type that grants transportation.

[Nesh he/him]

I almost wish I hadn't read Sunlit Man; it made the scene with Sigzil extra painful.  I admit a little confusion though, Shallan using Testament to operate the Oathgate?  Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been some time since I read the end of WoR, but I thought you couldn't work an Oathgate with a Deadeye blade?

[DracostarA]

A few points from reading:

1. I think we have little to no idea who wrote the Epigraphs, as most of the candidates would 'know' about their mission (unless they meant their true mission with the Wind)
2. It's interesting that the Oathgate spren specifically mentioned freedom from Honor and Odium and NOT Cultivation
3. On that - Taravangian knows Sja-Anat was seeking freedom from Odium, so I don't know if she factors into things a different way than before. Then again the change in Vessel likely caused Wind to be more active so maybe he's stepped back from things on Roshar a bit - I'm sure we'll find out soon
4. Did I read right that Shallan used 'dead' Testament to open an Oathgate? I wonder what implications this has for her rebonding Testament or for Maya on that matter
5. Intrigued to see where Sigzil's story goes - WoB is that most of what happens to turn him into Nomad will be this book, so within 9 more days he will have to break with the Windrunners, become a Skybreaker AND claim a Dawnshard which seems like a big ask.
6. I can see Kaladin's story going pretty much any way (death, ascension, something new) EXCEPT him just settling down to be a therapist.

[The Sovereign]

8 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I almost wish I hadn't read Sunlit Man; it made the scene with Sigzil extra painful.  I admit a little confusion though, Shallan using Testament to operate the Oathgate?  Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been some time since I read the end of WoR, but I thought you couldn't work an Oathgate with a Deadeye blade?

I think it is safe to assume with Shallan Re-Swearing Oaths Testament is more alive than other Deadspren.

[Nesh he/him]

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

I think it is safe to assume with Shallan Re-Swearing Oaths Testament is more alive than other Deadspren.

Fair enough.  Also, I love Brandon leaning on the fourth wall.  "You and I started this..." Kaladin and Shallan being the viewpoints of part 1 of WoK.

[machaislandfox]

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

The only thought that came to my minds when Kaladin mentioned that he and Adolin are brothers now was the Death Rattle about standing over the body of a brother and weeping. “Is it his blood or mine? What have we done?”

And that scares the living crap out of me.

Has anyone yet mentioned the possible allusion to Irish legend? It seems quite similar to me to the tale of the cattle raid of cooley. Cu Chulainn, the legendary spear-wielding hero, is pushed into a contest of champions for the fruits of the land he grew up in, and is eventually forced into contest with his adoptive brother Ferdiad. 

Not a serious theory or prediction, just think the similarity is interesting

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I admit a little confusion though, Shallan using Testament to operate the Oathgate?  Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been some time since I read the end of WoR, but I thought you couldn't work an Oathgate with a Deadeye blade?

Normal Deadeye can't, but Shallan didn't fully break her bond with Testament because as a child she wasn't able to fully comprehend the Intent needed for that. So there were some traces of Nahel Bond left between them. WaT ch 1:

Quote

“Can I heal her?” Shallan asked. “Maybe if I… if I bond her again?”
“I think, after talking to Kelek…” Pattern said. “I think you are still bonded to her.”
“But…” Shallan glanced over her shoulder at him. “I broke the bond. That did this.”
“Some breaks are messy,” Pattern said. “A slice with a sharpened knife is clean; a slice with a dull one is ragged. Your break, done by a child without full Intent, is ragged. In some ways that makes it worse, but it does mean that some Connection between you two persists.”

 

[duladen he/him]

I love the juxtaposition of Shallan’s awkwardness in Plate vs Kaladin at the end of RoW almost instantly knowing how to use Plate on himself and summon it onto anyone else.

I officially have no serious guesses in regards to the author of KoWaT.

[Nesh he/him]

1 hour ago, basement_boi said:

The only thought that came to my minds when Kaladin mentioned that he and Adolin are brothers now was the Death Rattle about standing over the body of a brother and weeping. “Is it his blood or mine? What have we done?”

And that scares the living crap out of me.

It could also be the start of a Moash redemption arc, he considers Kal a brother.  Of course, after Teft and Elhokar I don't want to see him redeemed, but I also don't want Kaladin and Adolin to fight...

[What's a Seawolf?]

Just want to say how much I love these two chapters, and how reassured I am after finding RoW immensely disappointing.

 

Also, Kal and Shallan's promise, that better be Sanderson giving a little wink and nod and saying 'no matter what absurdity happens to these characters this book, it all ends well in the end.'

 

Or at least that's what I'm really hoping.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Storms, all those goodbyes feel so final, it makes me really anxious, but on the other hand the promise Kal and Shallan made gives me hope. I'm starting to imagine that it might take years before they meet again, Shallan wandering into Cosmere and hunting Ghostbloods, Kaladin stuck as the king of Urithiru, Honor or something like that, but one day they will grab that drink, I'm sure of this! It was a good way to give us hope.

Actually I felt the oposite. When I saw promise between Kaladin and Shallan and Adolin, my first thought was: "They are not gona make it. Brandon, dont you dare to kill one of them!". I was sure Adolin will live, but now Im not longer sure and I hope he didnt die, because suddenly apears like it can happen.

[the_archduke]

I love that Kaladin acknowledged that Shalladin never could have been a thing.  Their respective problems would have been really bad for each other.  I always believed this. 

“Yeah. They’re my friends; I want them to be happy. But there’s more. I try to imagine myself with Shallan, and I can’t help thinking our individual neuroses would feed off one another in dangerous ways. My sadness fueling her feelings of abandonment when I retreat. Her self-destruction triggering my panic at being unable to help…”

Edited September 9 by the_archduke

[Diomedes]

43 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

I love that Kaladin acknowledged that Shalladin never could have been a thing.  Their respective problems would have been really bad for each other.  I always believed this. 

He then says though: "He looked to Syl and smiled. “It wouldn’t have to go that way, of course. I’ve seen that it can help to be around people who understand firsthand what it’s like for your mind to betray you. Maybe we’d have worked it out. But right now… I’m glad I didn’t have to try. I’m glad she has Adolin. He’s what she needs.” 

So it could have been a thing. But I am glad it did not. Two people solving their mental health issues because love would have been a terrible plot point. Mental health issues are a detriment to relationships not a boon.  

[+Child of Hodor]

The more Kaladin is like "10 more days I get to retire and go fishing on my boat the 'Live Happily Ever After' hope nothing happens to me before then" the more I actually think he won't die in this book contrary to what that kind of set up usually means. 

Classic Sanderson joke of Szeth saying he hungers for something and Nightblood says "pancakes?". That feels out of place that's a Lift, Lopen or Wayne joke.  Nightblood jokes are like him trying to eat Lift and then saying "oh I would never do that" when she mentions it later. 

Edited September 9 by Child of Hodor

[Nesh he/him]

9 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The more Kaladin is like "10 more days I get to retire and go fishing on my boat the 'Live Happily Ever After' hope nothing happens to me before then" the more I actually think he won't die in this book contrary to what that kind of set up usually means. 

Classic Sanderson joke of Szeth saying he hungers for something and Nightblood says "pancakes?". That feels out of place that's a Lift, Lopen or Wayne joke.  Nightblood jokes are like him trying to eat Lift and then saying "oh I would never do that" when she mentions it later. 

Well, Lift has been rubbing off on Nightblood, for better or worse.  Brandon likely feels we need that levity with Kaladin and Szeth together and Syl becoming more mature.

Edited September 9 by Nesh

[Lightspine]

I think the central takeaway from the sketch at the end is that the Oathgate spren match the corresponding spren at each location—including their state of corruption (or "Enlightenment")—just as the person who made the sketch (probably Nazh) speculates. We've known since Oathbringer that the Kholinar Oathgate spren is corrupted, but this is our first time seeing that the same is true for the spren at the Kholinar Oathgate at Urithiru, as far as I know. We can tell by matching the newest sketch to the map of Urithiru from Oathbringer that the Kurth, Vedenar, Kholinar, Panatham, Rall Elorim and Shinovar Oathgate spren have been corrupted, and the Azimir one is in the process of corruption.

The "this pair looks familiar" is referring to the Thaylen city spren, and I believe this is because they are the feature of this sketch in Oathbringer, which depicts Shallan petitioning the Thaylen city Oathgate spren to let them through to the Physical realm (it can't be a sketch of the Kholinar Oathgate since one of those spren should be red).