Wind and Truth Chapters 12 & 13

[Okishok]

The promise makes me feel like we're heading towards an ending where Kaladin picks up Honor and uses the Shard to fulfill his promise with a cognitive shadow of Adolin/Shallan.

[Wanguu He/Him]

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

I think the central takeaway from the sketch at the end is that the Oathgate spren match the corresponding spren at each location—including their state of corruption (or "Enlightenment")—just as the person who made the sketch (probably Nazh) speculates. We've known since Oathbringer that the Kholinar Oathgate spren is corrupted, but this is our first time seeing that the same is true for the spren at the Kholinar Oathgate at Urithiru, as far as I know. We can tell by matching the newest sketch to the map of Urithiru from Oathbringer that the Kurth, Vedenar, Kholinar, Panatham, Rall Elorim and Shinovar Oathgate spren have been corrupted, and the Azimir one is in the process of corruption.

If almost all of the oathgate spren got corrupted (without anyone noticing???) I wonder what this spells for Urithiru and the contest. Worrying.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Classic Sanderson joke of Szeth saying he hungers for something and Nightblood says "pancakes?". That feels out of place that's a Lift, Lopen or Wayne joke.  Nightblood jokes are like him trying to eat Lift and then saying "oh I would never do that" when she mentions it later. 

I think it's just that Lift has been hanging out around sword-nimi. So he's using her as a point of reference. She says there should be snacks, she's always talking about eating pancakes...

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Classic Sanderson joke of Szeth saying he hungers for something and Nightblood says "pancakes?". That feels out of place that's a Lift, Lopen or Wayne joke.  Nightblood jokes are like him trying to eat Lift and then saying "oh I would never do that" when she mentions it later. 

I think it's just that Lift has been hanging out around sword-nimi. So he's using her as a point of reference. She says there should be snacks, she's always talking about eating pancakes...

[teknopathetic he/him]

I hope Jasnah takes her inkspren and goes to talk the gates. We need to find out the issue. 
 

I get that being locked up and lonely for 4000+ years was awful, but it’s important to hear them out. 
 

And also, what about other Fabrials? Should they be released too? 

[Master Silver]

So... about Shallan's plate. She is not a reliable narrator. I think this plate seems a little off. Maybe wind spren are more elegant, but they fit Kaladin seamlessly. The way these spren were first described made me think they might be Testament's creation spren because of how clumsy they are and they seem super excited, like they were abandoned for 8 years and finally picked up again). Testament is confirmed not to be a dead eye anymore (because she worked on the oath gate). Shallan mentions that she has said many truths and has no clue which one gave her the plate. Two blades, two sets of plate, and she can now make a real shardbow.

[Nesh he/him]

2 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

So... about Shallan's plate. She is not a reliable narrator. I think this plate seems a little off. Maybe wind spren are more elegant, but they fit Kaladin seamlessly. The way these spren were first described made me think they might be Testament's creation spren because of how clumsy they are and they seem super excited, like they were abandoned for 8 years and finally picked up again). Testament is confirmed not to be a dead eye anymore (because she worked on the oath gate). Shallan mentions that she has said many truths and has no clue which one gave her the plate. Two blades, two sets of plate, and she can now make a real shardbow.

Personally, I chalked it up to Windspren being more intelligent than Creationspren.  We've heard that they are able to mimic speech and pull pranks, whereas until now we've only seen Creationspren mimic the shape of things in art.  I could be totally off, however.

[king of nowhere]

I normally would dismiss sigzil feeling he's not fit for a radiant as normal insecurity, but knowing how he ends up in sunlit man...

I fear not for kaladin, but for all the other windrunners. 

Also for kaladin, because of what it would do to him. It would really stretch his fourth oath

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

So the oathgate spren gave me a thought:

Quote

“I have made my decision. So has my companion. We are ready for freedom.”

“Freedom?” Shallan asked.

“We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.”

Could Sja-Anat be an Unmade avatar of Autonomy? She does let the spren choose for themselves, and then this talk of Freedom as being independent of Odium or Honor.

Going back to some of the earlier books, from the Sja-Anat Interlude in Rhythm of War:

Quote

Go then, she said. But do not bond this human because of what I said. I merely promised to send a child to investigate options. There are other possibilities there. Choose for yourself, not because I desire it.

Quote

Both knew she wanted more freedom than he would allow. Both knew that she wanted to be a god unto herself.

And we also know from the same book that Sja-Anat only Enlightens intelligent spren if they choose it and give consent.

And it would make sense if she was related to Autonomy also for her to be the one who rebels against Odium. But it could also be something different- like she was originally some Old God primal spren of Freedom.

There is probably more evidence out there, I need to do a reread.

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

So the oathgate spren gave me a thought:

Could Sja-Anat be an Unmade avatar of Autonomy? She does let the spren choose for themselves, and then this talk of Freedom as being independent of Odium or Honor.

Going back to some of the earlier books, from the Sja-Anat Interlude in Rhythm of War:

And we also know from the same book that Sja-Anat only Enlightens intelligent spren if they choose it and give consent.

And it would make sense if she was related to Autonomy also for her to be the one who rebels against Odium. But it could also be something different- like she was originally some Old God primal spren of Freedom.

There is probably more evidence out there, I need to do a reread.

Actually, it makes me wonder if she will be starting her own faction. Now that Odium is dead, I could see todium allowing her to go free and start her own faction with her Spren not on either side

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Actually, it makes me wonder if she will be starting her own faction. Now that Odium is dead, I could see todium allowing her to go free and start her own faction with her Spren not on either side

I agree she is starting her own faction. I was just wondering if her identity prior to being "Unmade" is as an avatar of Autonomy or maybe a great spren of Freedom, and so she still has that impulse. 

Edited September 10 by Dreamwa1ker

[Confused]

That was...uneventful. Boring even. Reminds me of the title of the Raymond Chandler novel made by Robert Altman into a film noir classic, The Long Goodbye. (Sorry, Laran.) Kal’s fully healed, inside and out, and keeps his Bridge Four tattoo. Nice to know. Chapter 13 even ends with a flight into the sunset, with the bonded lovers holding hands. How sweet! And Shardpuppies! Ohhhh!!!

But there is some grist for the theory-crafting mill. Here’s my latest speculations and questions:

Sja-anat’s Plan

To me, Sja-anat’s influence is by far the most intriguing aspect of this release. She wants the Oathgate spren to have “freedom” from both Honor’s and Odium’s influence. “We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.” As others point out, the spren don’t mention Cultivation.

This seems of a piece with a developing theme: the attempt by Roshar’s sapient Investiture to rid themselves of at least Honor and Odium. Adonalsium affirmatively designed Roshar as a unique creation. We don’t know exactly what he did or why, but I favor the idea that Roshar is a living planet with its own mind. I speculate Roshar evolved large sapient spren that included the precursors to at least some of the Unmade, the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and possibly others. I think this is why the Wind wants Kal’s help, to gain her freedom.

Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar together post-Shattering. I think Honor Invested some of the pre-Shattering spren to make them his own. Perhaps the Stormfather subsumes the Wind or maybe the Singer Rider of Storms (if different). Then Odium came and Invested the Unmade. From the spren’s perspective, the Shards changed and enslaved them, then made them take sides and fight in the Shard-Wars.

Now Roshar’s sapient spren want their freedom. Brandon always emphasizes the importance of choice. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I think part of the spren rebellion will involve...

Kal and Szeth as the Wind’s Champions

The Chapter 13 epigraph identifies Kal and Szeth as the Wind’s Champions. This phrasing suggests Kal and Szeth stand on equal footing with Dalinar and Odium’s Champions. What will this mean? Possibilities:

Since Kal is unlikely to attend the Battle of Shard Champions, he and Szeth must act after that battle ends. Consensus thinks Todium will rely on a loophole to defeat Dalinar, perhaps involving Gavinor. What is the Wind’s interest in that outcome?

If the Wind’s Champions defeat the Shard’s Champion, what happens? The Shards have to leave Roshar? Odium wants to leave anyway. Maybe he takes all his Investiture with him on the way out and binds himself never to return? (After millennia as a captive, why would he?)

What of mindless Honor? If Kal is the Wind’s Champion, I don’t see him ascending to Honor. But someone will have to; otherwise Honor’s Investiture may become sentient on its own with uncertain consequences. If not Kal, then who? Suggestions anyone?

Kal and Shallan’s Promised Meeting

I agree with those who say Kal’s promised meeting with Shallan will happen. Honor is the Shard of promises, and Fortune favors Shallan. It’s doubly inevitable. I love to imagine this meeting.

Kal waits at a table in Silverlight. With Shard-Wars raging everywhere, Silverlight becomes the cosmere’s Casablanca, neutral territory stuffed with refugees. In walks Shallan by herself. (She may still be with Adolin – I’m not going down the “my brother’s dead” rabbit hole – but Shallan meets Kal alone). He looks up, pleased. “Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”

Or maybe the better image is from the end of Batman Returns. Alfred shows up at a Paris restaurant finally to discover Bruce Wayne with a woman – Batman and Catwoman dining together. They raise their glasses in mutual salute. So...who plays Alfred? Who thinks of Kal as his son? Dalinar? Wit?

Unfinished Business

Two questions that have been discussed to death but still unsolved. First, why do people think Chana is Shallan’s mother? I get the resemblance and all, but what are the theories that permit a dead person to give birth to multiple children? Yeah, Chana’s a Cognitive Shadow, but she’s still dead. Did someone other than her husband spike her uterus? (Ba-Dum.)

Second, I’ve read different explanations for the Stormfather slipping from italicized font speech to small caps font speech. Why isn’t the simplest the best? The Stormfather as spren talks in italics, and Honor’s Cognitive Shadow talks in small caps like all the other Shards do? I haven’t reviewed all the instances of SF talk to see if this works. Does Honor’s CG say something uncharacteristic of the Shard?

This Week’s Limerick

Finally, my limerick summary of these chapters:

Kal says “Goodbye” to Bridge Four.

My guess is he’ll see them no more.

“Freedom,” say ‘Gate spren,

“From Shards and from all men.”

Kal hugs(!) as he exits the door.

[The Stick]

I think something strange to consider is that this book is seeming to exemplify the ideal of freedom very strongly. I find this kind of weird when this ideal would match up way better with Venli and the willshapers. I can see a united Listener-Sja-anat faction forming, and potentially using a corrupted Narak gate to get them into the action. 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

That was...uneventful. Boring even. Reminds me of the title of the Raymond Chandler novel made by Robert Altman into a film noir classic, The Long Goodbye. (Sorry, Laran.) Kal’s fully healed, inside and out, and keeps his Bridge Four tattoo. Nice to know. Chapter 13 even ends with a flight into the sunset, with the bonded lovers holding hands. How sweet! And Shardpuppies! Ohhhh!!!

But there is some grist for the theory-crafting mill. Here’s my latest speculations and questions:

Sja-anat’s Plan

To me, Sja-anat’s influence is by far the most intriguing aspect of this release. She wants the Oathgate spren to have “freedom” from both Honor’s and Odium’s influence. “We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.” As others point out, the spren don’t mention Cultivation.

This seems of a piece with a developing theme: the attempt by Roshar’s sapient Investiture to rid themselves of at least Honor and Odium. Adonalsium affirmatively designed Roshar as a unique creation. We don’t know exactly what he did or why, but I favor the idea that Roshar is a living planet with its own mind. I speculate Roshar evolved large sapient spren that included the precursors to at least some of the Unmade, the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and possibly others. I think this is why the Wind wants Kal’s help, to gain her freedom.

Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar together post-Shattering. I think Honor Invested some of the pre-Shattering spren to make them his own. Perhaps the Stormfather subsumes the Wind or maybe the Singer Rider of Storms (if different). Then Odium came and Invested the Unmade. From the spren’s perspective, the Shards changed and enslaved them, then made them take sides and fight in the Shard-Wars.

Now Roshar’s sapient spren want their freedom. Brandon always emphasizes the importance of choice. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I think part of the spren rebellion will involve...

Kal and Szeth as the Wind’s Champions

The Chapter 13 epigraph identifies Kal and Szeth as the Wind’s Champions. This phrasing suggests Kal and Szeth stand on equal footing with Dalinar and Odium’s Champions. What will this mean? Possibilities:

Since Kal is unlikely to attend the Battle of Shard Champions, he and Szeth must act after that battle ends. Consensus thinks Todium will rely on a loophole to defeat Dalinar, perhaps involving Gavinor. What is the Wind’s interest in that outcome?

If the Wind’s Champions defeat the Shard’s Champion, what happens? The Shards have to leave Roshar? Odium wants to leave anyway. Maybe he takes all his Investiture with him on the way out and binds himself never to return? (After millennia as a captive, why would he?)

What of mindless Honor? If Kal is the Wind’s Champion, I don’t see him ascending to Honor. But someone will have to; otherwise Honor’s Investiture may become sentient on its own with uncertain consequences. If not Kal, then who? Suggestions anyone?

Kal and Shallan’s Promised Meeting

I agree with those who say Kal’s promised meeting with Shallan will happen. Honor is the Shard of promises, and Fortune favors Shallan. It’s doubly inevitable. I love to imagine this meeting.

Kal waits at a table in Silverlight. With Shard-Wars raging everywhere, Silverlight becomes the cosmere’s Casablanca, neutral territory stuffed with refugees. In walks Shallan by herself. (She may still be with Adolin – I’m not going down the “my brother’s dead” rabbit hole – but Shallan meets Kal alone). He looks up, pleased. “Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”

Or maybe the better image is from the end of Batman Returns. Alfred shows up at a Paris restaurant finally to discover Bruce Wayne with a woman – Batman and Catwoman dining together. They raise their glasses in mutual salute. So...who plays Alfred? Who thinks of Kal as his son? Dalinar? Wit?

Unfinished Business

Two questions that have been discussed to death but still unsolved. First, why do people think Chana is Shallan’s mother? I get the resemblance and all, but what are the theories that permit a dead person to give birth to multiple children? Yeah, Chana’s a Cognitive Shadow, but she’s still dead. Did someone other than her husband spike her uterus? (Ba-Dum.)

Second, I’ve read different explanations for the Stormfather slipping from italicized font speech to small caps font speech. Why isn’t the simplest the best? The Stormfather as spren talks in italics, and Honor’s Cognitive Shadow talks in small caps like all the other Shards do? I haven’t reviewed all the instances of SF talk to see if this works. Does Honor’s CG say something uncharacteristic of the Shard?

This Week’s Limerick

Finally, my limerick summary of these chapters:

Kal says “Goodbye” to Bridge Four.

My guess is he’ll see them no more.

“Freedom,” say ‘Gate spren,

“From Shards and from all men.”

Kal hugs(!) as he exits the door.

I can answer this one. We know that the returned can have children the annotations of war breaker confirm it there’s just a trick to it. So theoretically, any cognitive shadow could figure out the same trick and then have children.

 

You’re confusing me what do you mean by she’s dead? She’s has a living body. She has a living mind. Her soul hasn’t gone to the beyond so in what way is she dead? As far as I can tell. Chana is very much alive. No spiking uterus required.

[Alcatur]

Regarding the oathgate spren, the three white vs seven grey may just be locked vs unlocked ones. 

 

Three Oathgates are unlocked and actively used - Azimir, Shattered Planes and Thaylenah.

Seven are inactive:

Iri, Jah Keved - enemy capitals

Kholinar, Rira, Panatham- under occupation

Akinah - actually not reactivated as of RoW

Shinovar - Shinovar

So its fits just about right. 

 

Edited September 10 by Alcatur

[BinarySecond]

5 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

So the oathgate spren gave me a thought:

Could Sja-Anat be an Unmade avatar of Autonomy? She does let the spren choose for themselves, and then this talk of Freedom as being independent of Odium or Honor.

Going back to some of the earlier books, from the Sja-Anat Interlude in Rhythm of War:

And we also know from the same book that Sja-Anat only Enlightens intelligent spren if they choose it and give consent.

And it would make sense if she was related to Autonomy also for her to be the one who rebels against Odium. But it could also be something different- like she was originally some Old God primal spren of Freedom.

There is probably more evidence out there, I need to do a reread.

Could Sja Anat enlighten an Unmade? If they were willing?

[alder24]

Quote

“I have made my decision. So has my companion. We are ready for freedom.”

“Freedom?” Shallan asked.

“We become something else. Not Odium. Not Honor. Free.”

Freedom they said? Not of Honor, not of Odium. So it happened that the combined tone of Odium and Cultivation's tone is strongly related to freedom, maybe even named Freedom. Coincidence? I think not! RoW ch 83:

Quote

Venli searched for something else. The tone of Cultivation. Odium’s song could suffuse her, fueling her powers and enflaming her emotions, but that tone … that tone had belonged to her people long before he’d arrived.
[...]
They hadn’t merely rejected the singer gods, they’d rejected the conflict. Holding to family, singing to Love despite their dull forms, they’d left the war and gone a new way.
[...]
The tone snapped into her mind, Cultivation and Odium mixing into a harmony, and it thrummed through Venli.
[...]
Freedom. The stones whispered to her of freedom.

Maybe Sja-Anat's Enlightenment infuses spren with combined investiture of Odium and Cultivation (Freedomlight?), not just pure Odium's investiture? Maybe she is a perfect combination of Odium and Cultivation, equivalent to the Sibling who is of both Honor and Cultivation, working with Towerlight (she calls the Sibling her cousin after all)?

 

 

6 hours ago, Confused said:

Two questions that have been discussed to death but still unsolved. First, why do people think Chana is Shallan’s mother? I get the resemblance and all, but what are the theories that permit a dead person to give birth to multiple children? Yeah, Chana’s a Cognitive Shadow, but she’s still dead. Did someone other than her husband spike her uterus? (Ba-Dum.)

Because Returned can have children, CS body is alive and it has been confirmed by Brandon that Heralds can have children, although with a different method than Returned:

Spoiler

Kingsdaughter613

I wanted to know if any of the non-Returned Cognitive Shadows have had children?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is it possible for Heralds to have children?

Brandon Sanderson

So yes, asterisk.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

OddBen11

Is the secret way that the God King in Warbreaker can have children the same way that the Heralds can?

Brandon Sanderson

*long series of uncertain sounds* No...? But there could be... I'm just gonna say no. But interesting theorizing, and it's possible that I could change my mind.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

5 hours ago, Confused said:

Second, I’ve read different explanations for the Stormfather slipping from italicized font speech to small caps font speech. Why isn’t the simplest the best? The Stormfather as spren talks in italics, and Honor’s Cognitive Shadow talks in small caps like all the other Shards do? I haven’t reviewed all the instances of SF talk to see if this works. Does Honor’s CG say something uncharacteristic of the Shard?

I don't think this works well with instances where italics and caps appear. The Stormfather talks in italic to Dalinar when bonded, but he talks to a group of people in small caps, like during Dalinar's wedding (OB ch 4), or when in the Aharietiam vision Dalinar demanded from the Stormfather to include Navani in their conversation (OB ch 38). He always uses small caps in those moments. Seems like the Stormfather speaks italics to those he's bonded with, while in small caps to all others. 

[anna she/her]

10 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Could Sja-Anat be an Unmade avatar of Autonomy? She does let the spren choose for themselves, and then this talk of Freedom as being independent of Odium or Honor.

...

And it would make sense if she was related to Autonomy also for her to be the one who rebels against Odium. But it could also be something different- like she was originally some Old God primal spren of Freedom.

This is an interesting take, that I really like. I've been wondering lately if "Phase 2" of the Cosmere (Mistborn Era 2 & 3, Stormlight 6 - 10, and the Elantris sequels) was going to be Everybody vs. Autonomy, and this may back that up.

[Isilel]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:14 PM, DracostarA said:

WoB is that most of what happens to turn him into Nomad will be this book

 

Hm... But didn't Nomad think to himself that he stopped aging at 38 Rosharan years? And he is a young guy in SA so far, about Kaladin's age. I expected all that stuff to happen in the second half of the series. Would you mind sharing this WoB, please?

 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

So theoretically, any cognitive shadow could figure out the same trick and then have children.

 

Yea, but 5 kids within a decade - decade and half? I thought that while it was possible for CS to have kids, it was somewhat difficult. Yet Lady Davar had the most children of any on-screen mother in SA.

On 9/9/2024 at 7:14 PM, DracostarA said:

 

 

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 

Sorry, some weird hiccup that I can't completely edit out on my phone.

Edited September 10 by Isilel

[bmcclure7]

11 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 

Hm... But didn't Nomad think to himself that he stopped aging at 38 Rosharan years? And he is a young guy in SA so far, about Kaladin's age. I expected all that stuff to happen in the second half of the series. Would you mind sharing this WoB, please?

 

 

Yea, but 5 kids within a decade - decade and half? I thought that while it was possible for CS to have kids, it was somewhat difficult. Yet Lady Davar had the most children of any on-screen mother in SA.

 

Hm... But didn't Nomad think to himself that he stopped aging at 38 Rosharan years? And he is a young guy in SA so far, about Kaladin's age. I expected all that stuff to happen in the second half of the series. Would you mind sharing this WoB, please?

 

 

Yea, but 5 kids within a decade - decade and half? I thought that while it was possible for CS to have kids, it was somewhat difficult. Yet Lady Davar had the most children of any on-screen mother in SA.

We don’t know it’s difficult we know that the knowledge on how to do it is not widely known. There’s a trick to it we don’t know if that trick is so it actually could be really easy if you know how. Five kids and 15 years is not hard. My own parents had more than that in less time.

 

honestly, the families in the Cosmere are unnaturally small. it’s probably my one complaint as I feel it breaks immersion. Smaller families is a very very modern phenomenon so it feels weird to see small families all throughout the cosmere. I understand why Brandon does this as it would make the cast even larger if he didn’t, but still, it is kind of immersion breaking for me.

[alder24]

59 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Hm... But didn't Nomad think to himself that he stopped aging at 38 Rosharan years? And he is a young guy in SA so far, about Kaladin's age. I expected all that stuff to happen in the second half of the series. Would you mind sharing this WoB, please?

Yes, you're right. The timeline doesn't fit for everything to happen in WaT, but something that will kickstart all of this will happen in WaT - most likely him failing while leading Windrunners and abandoning his order. But not bonding with Aux, this happened when he already was the Dawnshard as he was traveling in CR. And of course, the age of becoming the Dawnshard doesn't match at all. Here is that WoB, non-relevant parts deleted:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

For those who are wondering, this does take place moderately far into the Cosmere’s future. This is not a spoiler for Stormlight 5, in that I intend it to be read before Stormlight 5. But you will find out in Stormlight 5 what caused this whole thing to happen. If it’s a spoiler, it’s not for much in the future of Stormlight. The division point will happen pretty soon here. And this is Sigzil’s story, here called Nomad. He will come out of this book with a different name. And he has a role to play in the future of the Cosmere.

[...]

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 24, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Yea, but 5 kids within a decade - decade and half? I thought that while it was possible for CS to have kids, it was somewhat difficult. Yet Lady Davar had the most children of any on-screen mother in SA.

Per WoB I linked in my previous post, Heralds use a different way of having kids than Returned, so it might be just easier. For one thing, they don't have Divine Breath to share. 

[fonkeymonkey]

With Sig's talk with Kal and what we know he's going to end up as in The Sunlit Man, alongside how tempting it is to have Dalinar as Odium's champion, I wonder if Stormlight 5 is our Empire Strikes Back. 

Sig fails the windrunners, Kal dies (the goodbyes feel so final), Dalinar falls to Odium and we're left with with a small group to pick up the pieces and perhaps find some way to fight back in books 6-10.

[Alcatur]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Hm... But didn't Nomad think to himself that he stopped aging at 38 Rosharan years? And he is a young guy in SA so far, about Kaladin's age. I expected all that stuff to happen in the second half of the series. Would you mind sharing this WoB, please?

I don't think that Sigzil age is ever mentioned (and well, sometimes telling the age of a person from ethnicity you are not familiar with can be very tricky). He is likely older that Kaladin; we know that he tried to attend the Azir exam and it took him a while to do so, failed, got into legal problems, and then got apprenticed to Hoid and then traveled with him all around. Hoid seems to have been travelling around Roshar for quite a few years (he met Shallan three years prior to canon, and Rock prior to that). Its not clear how long his travels took, but it could have been also few years. Then Sigzil became a slave also for at least a while (I don't think he was sent to Bridge crews immediatly). He could be around 30, though it does seem like the higher end. 

[The Stick]

Now I think a big question is how does Sigzil fail, and what leads him to reject his paths. Another question is what oath he will finally reach before abandoning then. I think he will not make it to the fifth, I would say he will say the fourth, then find he cannot bring himself to say the fifth when he really needs to, like Kal in OB finale. I think that if this failure leads to a good part of Bridge 4 dying, he will completely abandon his oaths.

I think that Sigzil's biggest struggle is that he doesn't think he is ever good enough. This can be seen with his failure of the Azish exams and him trying to not become captain of the Wind runners. That is why I think that the second thing that could lead to him abandoning his oaths could be a confirmation of his worst fear, that he is not good enough. I think that this path would mean that he could not swear the fourth, because he could not hear not being strong enough to not save everyone.

[SheepAreFluffy]

I can't shake the thought that Kaladin's promise to Shallan is going to come back to bite him in the end. I'm imagining that some sort of Honor-connected spiritual investiture doohickey is going to happen to him that means that he can't break a promise without facing severe negative consequences, but circumstances will transpire such that keeping the promise will also endanger him somehow, like making him reveal himself at a time when he really needs to keep a low profile. I hope I am wrong.

[+Child of Hodor]

12 hours ago, SheepAreFluffy said:

I can't shake the thought that Kaladin's promise to Shallan is going to come back to bite him in the end. I'm imagining that some sort of Honor-connected spiritual investiture doohickey is going to happen to him that means that he can't break a promise without facing severe negative consequences, but circumstances will transpire such that keeping the promise will also endanger him somehow, like making him reveal himself at a time when he really needs to keep a low profile. I hope I am wrong.

I get the feeling it will be a weird meeting like one will be a cognitive shadow, a god or a secret third thing. Or they are both on Braize as new Heralds which would really suck.  Or like Adolin and Syl are dead, so they "won" the larger conflict (for now), but lost a lot. It will be bittersweet. 

Edited September 11 by Child of Hodor