Will the Night Brigade accidentally put Ambition back together?

[juggbigt]

I've been obsessed with this feeling that splintered shards will be "reformed" at some point. I was always totally unsure which, Honor being the most obvious, but I'm thinking that Ambition may as well. The Night Brigade is searching for a specific Dawnshard to combat The Evil of Threnody, right. The very same one that disallowed Hoid to ever kill or even eat meat. What if that one and the one Rysn has (change) are somehow combined and the result isn't just the eradication of The Evil, but it actually pulls the splintered pieces of Ambition back together in a new vessel. The results could be that Ambition would go after Odium (who wins in book 5, lets be real) and Mercy for the whole, you know, killing it once way back when. Just sayin, BS has something up his sleeve in terms of Threnody. 

... also, I think that Autonomy is somehow tapping Ambitions unused investiture (which is most likely like a gas cloud in space) which is why she's able to spread herself so far. If Ambition is reformed, I don't feel that they'd have a huge problem with that (I mean, it's ambitious of Autonomy to do so) but Autonomy would be kinda stormed. 

[The Sovereign]

Not to trample on your idea, but I suspect it would be impossible to accidently reassemble a Shard essentially regardless of the tools available/circumstances. The process would require Intent.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

Not to trample on your idea, but I suspect it would be impossible to accidently reassemble a Shard essentially regardless of the tools available/circumstances. The process would require Intent.

Maybe, maybe not.  Intent needs to be there, but it may not need to be all that specific; just being incredibly Ambitious might Connect you to it enough in the right realmic circumstances. 

[juggbigt]

1 hour ago, The Sovereign said:

Not to trample on your idea, but I suspect it would be impossible to accidently reassemble a Shard essentially regardless of the tools available/circumstances. The process would require Intent.

I'm not so sure. The intent needed may line up directly with a goal. Often with humanity, intent can reproduce a result that was not ... intended. Or, maybe the Night Brigade does want to reform Ambition. Maybe they're working for another faction. 

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

The Night Brigade is searching for a specific Dawnshard to combat The Evil of Threnody, right

Wait, do we know this? Or am I missing something from The Sunlit Man?

[+hwiles]

10 minutes ago, The Bookwyrm said:

Wait, do we know this? Or am I missing something from The Sunlit Man?

Edit: Unpublished unconfirmed information placed under spoiler tag.

Spoiler

It's strongly suspected that Sanderson changed Dusk Brigade to Night Brigade in his personal notes at some point and it's technically unconfirmed if the tentative outlines for a threnody sequel are still on track and unchanged from last check-in and how the group in sunlit man fit in with the group which was trying to destroy the evil. It stands to decent reason that if Sanderson's plans haven't changed and we assume that the two groups are one in the same that the reason the night brigade wants to secure a dawnshard is because they lost against the evil and are trying to reinforce before challenging it again:

Spoiler

Rhapsody (paraphrased)

Will the Threnody book take place in the Homeland?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The book is tentatively called The Dusk Brigade. A group wants to free the homeland of the Evil. It doesn't go well for them. Opening scene is all ships sinking and people washing up on shore.

Footnote: The title of The Dusk Brigade was mistakenly believed to be The Dust Brigade until March 2022.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12720

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:19 PM by hwiles

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

1 minute ago, hwiles said:

It's strongly suspected that Sanderson changed Dusk Brigade to Night Brigade in his personal notes at some point and it's technically unconfirmed if the tentative outlines for a threnody sequel are still on track and unchanged from last check-in and how the group in sunlit man fit in with the group which was trying to destroy the evil. It stands to decent reason that if Sanderson's plans haven't changed and we assume that the two groups are one in the same that the reason the night brigade wants to secure a dawnshard is because they lost against the evil and are trying to reinforce before challenging it again:

 

Okay. This does make sense, I just wasn't sure if it had been canonically confirmed or not.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

I've been obsessed with this feeling that splintered shards will be "reformed" at some point. I was always totally unsure which, Honor being the most obvious, but I'm thinking that Ambition may as well.

Ambition is probably the least likely to be reformed, considering that a significant fraction of her power was ripped out in the Threnodite system and that she was Splintered somewhere else, with Odium doing something similar to what he had done on Sel to prevent anyone from Ascending to Ambition.

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

The Night Brigade is searching for a specific Dawnshard to combat The Evil of Threnody, right.

We don't know that. We don't know what are the ultimate goals of the Night Brigade. We only know they want to get Nomad's Dawnshard (which is a powerful weapon on its own and would be useful in destroying planets - something that they've done before) and possibly even Hoid. They definitely aren't good guys.

Whether they hunt for this specific Dawnshard, or because it was the first one which appeared on their radar and was the easiest to grab is also unknown.

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

What if that one and the one Rysn has (change) are somehow combined and the result isn't just the eradication of The Evil, but it actually pulls the splintered pieces of Ambition back together in a new vessel.

Yes, it's possible to restore a Shard, a Dawnshard would be a good tool to start with, but we don't know what's needed for that. Two Dawnshards might be a little overkill in my opinion. And accidentally recombining the entire Shard is probably unlikely. 

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

The results could be that Ambition would go after Odium (who wins in book 5, lets be real) and Mercy for the whole, you know, killing it once way back when. Just sayin, BS has something up his sleeve in terms of Threnody. 

Why? A Shard is a combination of raw power and a Vessel. A Vessel is the mind of a Shard, a person making decisions. It's impossible to bring back Uli Da, the former Vessel of Ambition, because she's long dead, killed during the Splintering of Ambition. Recreating the power of Ambition wouldn't revive Uli Da - someone else would have to Ascend to Ambition and that new Vessel would have their own goals and own motives. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can it be restored? The Splinters...

Brandon Sanderson

Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it.

[...]

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

1 hour ago, juggbigt said:

.. also, I think that Autonomy is somehow tapping Ambitions unused investiture (which is most likely like a gas cloud in space) which is why she's able to spread herself so far.

We know how Autonomy is able to do that. Investiture of any Shard is everywhere in Cosmere, but because Vessel's mind isn't infinite, it's not able to comprehend and reach all of that. If a Vessel were to try to expand their mind and search for their investiture outside of their home system, they would be able to discover it and use it. That's how Autonomy is operating, but this requires some mental gymnastics. 

Trying to use another Shard's investiture would require corrupting it, which would still require expenditure of their own power, which would require being aware of it. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

[edited for clarity, I recommend reading all of this long WoB by using the link at the bottom]

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

 

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

9 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Edit: Unpublished unconfirmed information placed under spoiler tag.

  Hide contents

It's strongly suspected that Sanderson changed Dusk Brigade to Night Brigade in his personal notes at some point and it's technically unconfirmed if the tentative outlines for a threnody sequel are still on track and unchanged from last check-in and how the group in sunlit man fit in with the group which was trying to destroy the evil. It stands to decent reason that if Sanderson's plans haven't changed and we assume that the two groups are one in the same that the reason the night brigade wants to secure a dawnshard is because they lost against the evil and are trying to reinforce before challenging it again:

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Note, this is the origin of the Night Brigade, which doesn't have to align with their current goals. 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

We know how Autonomy is able to do that. Investiture of any Shard is everywhere in Cosmere, but because Vessel's mind isn't infinite, it's not able to comprehend and reach all of that. If a Vessel were to try to expand their mind and search for their investiture outside of their home system, they would be able to discover it and use it. That's how Autonomy is operating, but this requires some mental gymnastics. 

Trying to use another Shard's investiture would require corrupting it, which would still require expenditure of their own power, which would require being aware of it. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

[edited for clarity, I recommend reading all of this long WoB by using the link at the bottom]

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

 

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

Interesting. 

I wonder, since Nightblood bears Ruin's Investiture if Sazed ever became aware of its presence if he could contact or tweak the weapon, maybe use it as his "sword"?

[juggbigt]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Interesting. 

I wonder, since Nightblood bears Ruin's Investiture if Sazed ever became aware of its presence if he could contact or tweak the weapon, maybe use it as his "sword"?

Where did I miss Nightblood bearing Ruin's investiture?

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Where did I miss Nightblood bearing Ruin's investiture?

Sorry, here's the reference, which I feel fits Autonomy's situation perfectly, only between Nightblood and Ruin: 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10902

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

This is probably due to Nightblood's Command to destroy evil, something fundamentally attuned to Ruin's Intent, which probably hot wired the Awakened sword to that Shard.

It also fits that Ruin's Investiture- ruinous change-  seems to be able to change other Investitures to fit its own Intent, like Hemalurgic spikes stealing Preservation’s Investiture but Connecting you to Ruin, or why Nightblood feeds on so many different Investitures but only leaks black Investiture (which is associated with Ruin's Intent).

Edited Friday at 02:42 AM by Trusk'our

[juggbigt]

I was thinking about this again last night and the counter argument. Since Ambition was the 1st Odium went after (I actually think she may have initiated the fight) that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. Maybe he learned from his mistake with Ambition and that's what lead him to trap the Dor in the Cognitive realm. Since a large chuck of her investiture was ripped off on Threnody and is now linked there, that that chunk maintains some conscious semblance of Ambition, or who she was. The emotion could have imprinted on the investiture and that may be the thing that has so badly marked the spirit realm and affected Threnody so. I mean, large amounts of investiture DO show a form of consciousness in other areas of the Cosmere, and this is a LARGE chunk. Plus, the Shades there have this weird consciousness that's unexplained. Maybe Uli Da isn't all the way dead, or her essence is in the planet and ambitiously hanging on. Maybe the problem with Threnody is that Odium didn't fully splinter her, Mercey thought she was doing a Mercy on the part of Ambition that ran, but no one ever went back to splinter the remaining "chuck" and that large part of Ambition maintained consciousness, is still linked to the rest of the splintered investiture (where ever the storm it is) and it's NOT happy! That's what The Evil is. It's Uli Da (or part of her both physically/spiritually) in this semi-aware, and SUPER angry form taking that anger out on Threnody because she can't leave...yet.

I also sell high quality tinfoil hats on my website. So ...

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Ambition is probably the least likely to be reformed, considering that a significant fraction of her power was ripped out in the Threnodite system and that she was Splintered somewhere else, with Odium doing something similar to what he had done on Sel to prevent anyone from Ascending to Ambition.

We don't know that. We don't know what are the ultimate goals of the Night Brigade. We only know they want to get Nomad's Dawnshard (which is a powerful weapon on its own and would be useful in destroying planets - something that they've done before) and possibly even Hoid. They definitely aren't good guys.

Whether they hunt for this specific Dawnshard, or because it was the first one which appeared on their radar and was the easiest to grab is also unknown.

Yes, it's possible to restore a Shard, a Dawnshard would be a good tool to start with, but we don't know what's needed for that. Two Dawnshards might be a little overkill in my opinion. And accidentally recombining the entire Shard is probably unlikely. 

Why? A Shard is a combination of raw power and a Vessel. A Vessel is the mind of a Shard, a person making decisions. It's impossible to bring back Uli Da, the former Vessel of Ambition, because she's long dead, killed during the Splintering of Ambition. Recreating the power of Ambition wouldn't revive Uli Da - someone else would have to Ascend to Ambition and that new Vessel would have their own goals and own motives. 

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

I was thinking about this again last night and the counter argument. Since Ambition was the 1st Odium went after (I actually think she may have initiated the fight) that he didn't know exactly what he was doing. Maybe he learned from his mistake with Ambition and that's what lead him to trap the Dor in the Cognitive realm.

She was the first, but he didn't find her so he went and killed Devotion and Dominion on Sel first. He also learned how to do it better after Sel and he did something similar to Ambition, but better. That's why Sel is so messed up because Odium didn't really want this to happen, but took advantage of a situation and did it anyway.

Spoiler

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Argent

...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards--

Brandon Sanderson

There were better ways he could have done what he did.

Argent

And he then learned at least a little bit better?

Brandon Sanderson

He learned at least a little bit better.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Since a large chuck of her investiture was ripped off on Threnody and is now linked there, that that chunk maintains some conscious semblance of Ambition, or who she was.

Are you proposing that Uli Da left a Cognitive Shadow of herself and it merged with some investiture present on Threnody? Possible - Tanavast did that with the Stormfather after all. Maybe that's what the Evil is? I find it unlikely, more on that later.

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

The emotion could have imprinted on the investiture and that may be the thing that has so badly marked the spirit realm and affected Threnody so. I mean, large amounts of investiture DO show a form of consciousness in other areas of the Cosmere, and this is a LARGE chunk.

I wouldn't count on that. It takes a really long time for investiture to gain sentience on its own and emotions just won't do the trick. Those large chunks of investiture in other places in Cosmere were created deliberately as sentient Splinters.

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone were to create a human shape, with full articulations, made out of the four Feruchemical Spiritual metals and copper and do like a full dump into them, would it be able to-- I mean, Investiture attains sapience on its own. And then with-- If those were mixed with the memories in the copper would it be able to effectively become an android of the person who created it?

Brandon Sanderson

So we got a couple of issues you have to overcome in creating this. Number one, the memories are not going to attune to the Investiture itself, they're going to be attuned to you. The Investiture as it attains sapience is gonna create its own Identity, which is then going to be a mismatch for those memories. So you would have to find a way to get those memories to work for that creation.

Questioner

It wouldn't tie with the Identity that was stored in the aluminum?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it would not... The other thing you were getting at there though, is that just Investing it alone, you would have to leave it alone for a long time, naturally, for it to start developing anything. And so we're looking at thousands of years, probably. There are ways to speed that process along, but just doing that and leaving it, it's gonna take a while.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Plus, the Shades there have this weird consciousness that's unexplained.

It is explained. They are Cognitive Shadows of people who died. It's their consciousness, although greatly corrupted and mostly destroyed. 

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Maybe Uli Da isn't all the way dead, or her essence is in the planet and ambitiously hanging on.

The problem with Uli Da's Cognitive Shadow being on Threnody is that she wasn't killed there, she escaped the system and was killed somewhere else. That's why I find it unlikely that her Cognitive Shadow is on Threnody, even though it's theoretically possible.  

2 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Mercey thought she was doing a Mercy on the part of Ambition that ran

While I do subscribe to the theory that Mercy tried to Mercy-kill Ambition and helped Odium, I have to say that it's just a theory. We actually don't know which side Mercy fought on.

[juggbigt]

So when a vessel has a shard, they are merged. If Odium broke a large portion of Ambition off, is it possible that both physical and spiritual broke together? Cognitive shadow? Sure, but with the added piece of Uli Da's heavily invested physical vessel also being a part of the equation. And we don't know what the rules of consciousness are for shard investiture that's unwillingly broken off. A literal piece of a god left behind to fend for itself is a spren. A big piece of a god that's sole thought is ambition may behave differently. 

I also bring up the Shades acting weird because they're automatic. They have this ambition to just keep living, but are stuck in this loop and are super aggressive toward violence. 

I just don't think she's fully splintered like Devotion/Dominion. I can't help but think that the part of Ambition left on Threnody is still "kinda" Ambition. Never fully splintered, so normal rules really don't apply. Like a person being on life support, but that person is a god so they're self aware to an extent and pissed AF

[juggbigt]

BS hints that Ambition's shard may be picked up

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e10989

... and states that the Evil wasn't evil before The Clash (terrible band, BTW) and the Clash severly corrupted it ( I didn't know this until just now) So The Evil "being" what's left of Ambition is still kinda on the table. Ambition, knowing that she needed a vessel chose what it could, and chose a vessel that doesn't have the cognitive power to "control" a shard, but rather to just keep going. What if this thing that is currently The Evil did something weird when people died, like created spren-like beings or seo-like beings and the corruption now turns them into shades? We're gonna find out in SP5, but BS has been pretty coy about Ambition and has in a very BS was avoided actually saying that she's splintered in the same way that D&D are. 

[alder24]

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

So when a vessel has a shard, they are merged.

The Vessel IS the Shard, he's the mind of the Shard. The Shard is made out of a power (raw investiture) and a mind that controls it (Vessel). The Vessel and the Shard are intertwined.

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

If Odium broke a large portion of Ambition off, is it possible that both physical and spiritual broke together? Cognitive shadow?

I don't fully understand you here. This is partial Splintering and it affects only the power - just like Honor creating Spren doesn't split his mind among them, it's just his raw power that's separated. The Vessel might have been wounded, but not broken into pieces as that would just kill them. So Ambition's power was thrown towards the Threnodite System, but her mind, the Vessel, wasn't fractured because Ambition escaped and was Splintered somewhere else - the Vessel wasn't killed in the Threnodite system. 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

Sure, but with the added piece of Uli Da's heavily invested physical vessel also being a part of the equation.

Physical Vessel? The body of the Vessel it's their investiture in the Physical Realm - like Mists, god metals, or Stormlight. The Vessel doesn't have a body like humans have, they are no longer humans after Ascension, their body got vaporized by the power. They are the mind of the Shard (Cognitive part) and their Spirit Web (Spiritual part) was merged with the power. The Vessel isn't physical, it's mainly Spiritual and Cognitive. 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

And we don't know what the rules of consciousness are for shard investiture that's unwillingly broken off.

Well, per WoB I posted in the previous point, sapience in investiture that is left alone will develop very slowly. But this also requires special circumstances. Unwillingly or not, a pile of investiture left alone will take a long time to develop sapience - and it will gain its own identity.

Spoiler

Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shards. Is it possible for them to think outside-- without having a person they're working through?

Brandon Sanderson

The power left alone around people will eventually gain a kind of sentience.

Questioner

Kind of like the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So it is possible. It doesn't always happen, and sometimes it takes a while. For example, the Dor? Basic, rudimentary, feeling only. It's not-- you know.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

A literal piece of a god left behind to fend for itself is a spren.

A Divine Breath is also a Splinter, but it isn't neither sentient, nor self-aware. It takes time or intent to create sapient spren. This generally requires people thinking about investiture, which makes it alive. Yes, it's possible for Splintered pieces of Ambition to become self-aware on Threnody, but I doubt they would retain memories and feelings of their former Vessel, as they were separated from her.

Seons and Skaze were also created during Odium's clash with Devotion and Dominion, yet they do not have any memories of feelings passed down on them from Shard's Vessels. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

LazerWulf (paraphrased)

You've said that Seons and Skaze contain splinters of Devotion and Dominion. Were these splinters created when Odium killed the shardholders and Splintered their shards? Or are they more similar to how Endowment splinters himself (herself?) to make divine breaths? What is the difference between the two?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

First, he said that it was a very good question. Then he said that those splinters weren't supposed to be there, and they were indeed created when Odium splintered the shards. He said that the difference lies in how each magical system works. Endowment's splinters are more similar to how Preservation invested a little bit of her shard into each human on Scadrial.

Miscellaneous 2013 (Sept. 27, 2013)

 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

A big piece of a god that's sole thought is ambition may behave differently. 

A Splinter can have its own intent. The Stormfather is a huge Splinter of Honor, he's Honor's Cognitive Shadow, yet he isn't Honor - he's his own thing. 

Spoiler

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

I just don't think she's fully splintered like Devotion/Dominion. I can't help but think that the part of Ambition left on Threnody is still "kinda" Ambition. Never fully splintered, so normal rules really don't apply. Like a person being on life support, but that person is a god so they're self aware to an extent and pissed AF

She's 100% Splintered. That's what Splintering is, separating into pieces and killing the Shard. Ambition is killed, whatever existed on Threnody before the battle was twisted by waves of power flowing over the system during Ambition's fight. Even the Evil existed before the Splintering but wasn't Evil yet, it was changed because of Shards fighting.

Yes, there can be sentient pieces of Ambition left over on Threnody, they can do stuff, but they aren't Ambition. The Vessel is dead, the power is in pieces. 

Spoiler

Questioner

I had a question about Odium's intent for going after Ambition. Obviously, with Devotion and Dominion teaming up, he didn't want a twosome over there. Are we ever gonna learn more about the background on Threnody? 'Cause Khriss implies that there was always Investiture there, before the clash. So I'm looking for a little bit of information about the Evil before the Admiral's background story.

Brandon Sanderson

Before the clash, the Evil was not the Evil. It is the clash that warped it. [SP5 spoilers out]

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

BS hints that Ambition's shard may be picked up

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e10989

It's a RAFO, not a hint, not a confirmation, it's Read And Find Out.

Here is a WoB in which Brandon confirms there is a reason for why Ambition hasn't been picked up since her Splintering:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

So while it's possible to Ascend to Ambition (I have no doubts about it), it's definitely very problematic and it would require a lot of work - Odium made sure of this.

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

What if this thing that is currently The Evil did something weird when people died, like created spren-like beings or seo-like beings and the corruption now turns them into shades?

It wasn't the Evil that made Shades, they were both made during Ambition's fight. The power washed over the entire system and twisted everything in it - including people and what ever the Evil was before. Every Threnodite has something corrupted in them that makes them Cognitive Shadows after they die from Shade's hands. The Shades existed on the smaller continent before the Evil became active in the Homeland and there were no Shads on the larger continent. AU the Threnodite system essay:

Spoiler

Judging by the records that Nazh has provided, I have concluded that some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards. However, the waves of destruction— carrying ripped-off chunks of Ambition’s power—twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

16 hours ago, juggbigt said:

but BS has been pretty coy about Ambition and has in a very BS was avoided actually saying that she's splintered in the same way that D&D are. 

He is very direct about this, he even confirmed something similar to D&D happened to Ambition. AU:

Quote

Ambition would later be Splintered...

RoW letter:

Quote

That said, the most worrying thing I have discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed - and Ambition was destroyed.

 

Spoiler

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

[...]

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

IslayThePeaty

Does Ambition factor into Sel, either in the events we've seen on-planet or in terms of where Uli Da was ultimately spintered?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO this for now. Suffice it to say that this specific splintering has had far-reaching effects.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 6, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

[...]

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

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