Hemalurgic Residue

[Trusk'our he/him]

Hemalurgy's got some strange mechanics at times, such as how the genetic potential of Invested powers granted via spikes do not pass down to a Hemalurgist's progeny. Simultaneously, some things like a Koloss's change in biology can be transferred, though only partially. 

I have a new hypothesis as to why this may be, and the consequences of such.

Hemalurgy is destructive, both to the donor and the recipient of the spike. It's inherently about change, but a destructive type of change.

When a spike is implanted in a person, it forcibly changes their anatomy to plug in, rearranging the Spiritweb to make room for itself, which is reflected in the Physical Realm by changing organ placement and such.

However, my thinking is that some of these changes are more permanent, warping the underlying true Spiritweb of the Hemalurgist, not just stapling on Investiture with the spike itself. A bit like Savantism, actually, having the Investiture change the Spiritweb to better fit it.

These changes to the Spiritweb can be transferred, as they aren't part of the spike's Spiritweb fragments and Identity, but the Hemalurgist's own. Hence the reason Koloss can have Koloss-blooded children: the warping (and possibly expanding? It is caused by an introduction of extra Investiture, after all, like how Slivers get more expanded from holding Investiture temporarily) gets transferred, though the power of the spikes themselves (which are part of a full Koloss's spiritual and physical form) is distinct enough to remain separate. 

These changes could also explain why Steel Inquisitors can have children with no extra Allomantic potential, but can have "complications": the physical and mental transformations can be passed on to a lesser degree, but Allomantic potential is not (the first WoB says Allomancy can't be transferred, and it's from 2019 vs the second from 2012, hence the reason I trust it more).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/391-berlin-signing/#e12858

Questioner

I wondered if an Inquisitor had children, if they would inherit stronger Inquisitor abilities, or if they would just inherit the lesser lines from being a Seeker, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. I don't think I've ever been asked this before... The way Hemalurgy works, if you're not aware, you are taking someone else's soul, and you are basically nailing it to your soul... That won't affect the children. So you will have the weaker lines.

They have tried that. Unfortunately.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/192-rfantasy_bookclub-alloy-of-law-qa/#e4148

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

Now I know an argument can be made that Koloss are unique due to Sazed's direct meddling and therefore can't be considered a reliable source to determine how Hemalurgic genetics work, but I have a hypothesis for that too.

I don't think Sazed did change their species directly, but changed the system a bit, much like he tweaked Allomancy's required trauma for Snapping. Modern Hemalurgy is far less "aggressive"- it refuses to grant more than a certain number of powers (probably due to excessive Spiritweb damage) and can't override Identity contamination.

Ancient Hemalurgy may have rendered Koloss sterile due to the extra Spiritweb damage it caused, but modern Hemalurgy may not do this due to its lessened capacity. I think that this is what Sazed changed (and probably fixed up previously existing Koloss like he did Spook so they could function as modern Koloss).

In any case, moving back to the original topic, I think that there are ways we could see this permanent Spiritweb transformation be relevant. 

If a Hemalurgist tried to swap power spikes, I think that there would be a slight residual change each time, possibly making the Hemalurgist continue to be Invested with Ruin's Investiture and Connect to it as well as become slightly less "human" each time. These changes would be small enough to be pretty much inconsequential most of the time, but I think would technically exist. 

If a Koloss were to have their spikes removed and tapped sufficient F-gold (no, I don't think removing the Linchpin spike would be an issue. Yes, I do have a good reason to assume this and I'll make a separate post about it another time), I think that their would be a residual change, maybe making them into a Koloss-blooded person instead of a regular human (though perception may screw with this).

Thoughts?

Edited Friday at 03:06 AM by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Modern Hemalurgy is far less "aggressive"- it refuses to grant more than a certain number of powers (probably due to excessive Spiritweb damage) and can't override Identity contamination.

Ancient Hemalurgy may have rendered Koloss sterile due to the extra Spiritweb damage it caused, but modern Hemalurgy may not do this due to its lessened capacity.

You might term it this way, but it was the other way around. Ruin was Warping Hemalurgy during the Final Empire. Sazed simply allowed it to return to "normal"

TLM Ars Arcanum:

Spoiler

In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spiritwebs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable.

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

However, my thinking is that some of these changes are more permanent,

I think this has to do with the nature of the Spike and Metal. Think of it like a car. For example, H-Steel and H-Pewter Spikes steal and add Allomantic and Feruchemical Abilities - like adding "bling" to a car (a Spoiler, neon undercarraige, etc.) and these things are not inheritable sDNA. However, H-Iron and H-Tin steal normal attributes (Physical Strength and Senses, respectively) and is more like Upgrading the engine or drivetrain - and these upgraded normal components are inheritable sDNA traits (including parts of the warped PR reflection of the changes). 

[Trusk'our he/him]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You might term it this way, but it was the other way around. Ruin was Warping Hemalurgy during the Final Empire. Sazed simply allowed it to return to "normal"

TLM Ars Arcanum:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spiritwebs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable.

Your term seems more accurate based on the info we have, I believe. 

I think the main takeaway is the same though: with changes to the magic system as a whole allowing for Koloss reproduction, regardless of whether Sazed deliberately made them or if it was merely a byproduct of Ruin's newer, more docile nature. 

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

 

I think this has to do with the nature of the Spike and Metal. Think of it like a car. For example, H-Steel and H-Pewter Spikes steal and add Allomantic and Feruchemical Abilities - like adding "bling" to a car (a Spoiler, neon undercarraige, etc.) and these things are not inheritable sDNA. However, H-Iron and H-Tin steal normal attributes (Physical Strength and Senses, respectively) and is more like Upgrading the engine or drivetrain - and these upgraded normal components are inheritable sDNA traits (including parts of the warped PR reflection of the changes). 

Perhaps, but why then is natural Allomancy and Feruchemy heritable?

They should count as "bling" under this definition too, yet they can be passed on just fine.

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Perhaps, but why then is natural Allomancy and Feruchemy heritable?

They should count as "bling" under this definition too, yet they can be passed on just fine.

I think natural (or Lerasium induced) Metallic Arts are like the car's paintjob, a natural part of the default Spiritweb as it was born (or integrated so thoroughly by Lerasium as to be functionally the same), while Spike-induced MoIs are "stapled on" extras (like weird-dude's duct-tape spoiler) - it's there now, and works (mostly - just not as efficient) but is not truely part of the default Identity to be an imheritable property outright. To paraphrase:

In the venn diagram of "this is me"

• a Normal trait is "upgrading" a section completely within the circle
• Lerasium is expanding the circle
• Normal Misting's and Ferring's circles include their ability(ies)
  • however
• A Spike-induced power is a seprate circle, with some overlap but not "full coverage."

I hope that makes sense to csomebody besides me

[Trusk'our he/him]

41 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think natural (or Lerasium induced) Metallic Arts are like the car's paintjob, a natural part of the default Spiritweb as it was born (or integrated so thoroughly by Lerasium as to be functionally the same), while Spike-induced MoIs are "stapled on" extras (like weird-dude's duct-tape spoiler) - it's there now, and works (mostly - just not as efficient) but is not truely part of the default Identity to be an imheritable property outright. To paraphrase:

In the venn diagram of "this is me"

• a Normal trait is "upgrading" a section completely within the circle
• Lerasium is expanding the circle
• Normal Misting's and Ferring's circles include their ability(ies)
  • however
• A Spike-induced power is a seprate circle, with some overlap but not "full coverage."

I hope that makes sense to csomebody besides me

I must admit I still find it difficult to accept at this time, as I don't see strong evidence for why a power stapled onto someone versus extra attributes should differ in how they're accepted as part of the whole (though, I suppose attributes do "twist" more, so perhaps something is fundamentally different and I'm just pulling at straws).

That said, I certainly could be wrong, and I'm glad I got another point of view @Treamayne. Really, I always love feedback on one of my posts 

Perhaps another explanation for why Allomantic and Feruchemical potential isn't transferred via Hemalurgy is because Ruin's Intent corrupts the Investiture, so anything passed down may be of Ruin, not Preservation or even a mix. I'm a lot less sure about this one, but it's better not to cut off any possibilities until we get confirmation. 

[Duxredux he/him]

The OP seems well reasoned, @Trusk'our, though I think I would add one potential tweak:

On 9/12/2024 at 8:30 PM, Trusk'our said:

If a Hemalurgist tried to swap power spikes, I think that there would be a slight residual change each time, possibly making the Hemalurgist continue to be Invested with Ruin's Investiture and Connect to it as well as become slightly less "human" each time. These changes would be small enough to be pretty much inconsequential most of the time, but I think would technically exist. 

I think this makes sense, but it might only be warping the person hot-swapping spikes for every new bindpoint utilized, but not necessarily for going back to a previously used spike and bindpoint - because the necessary warping would have already occurred at that junction, right?

As for:

10 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I must admit I still find it difficult to accept at this time, as I don't see strong evidence for why a power stapled onto someone versus extra attributes should differ in how they're accepted as part of the whole (though, I suppose attributes do "twist" more, so perhaps something is fundamentally different and I'm just pulling at straws).

Fun fact - if you get a bone marrow transplant IRL your blood will have the DNA of the donor. Reported by a few news outlets included NY Times, there's been a case of a man who got such a transplant and had the DNA swap be so pervasive that any children he had would inherit the donor's DNA - not his. The term they used for him was a chimera. Other article here. There's also been a law case back in 2002 of a woman named Lydia Fairchild with genetic chimerism who had some difficulty establishing enforcement of child support because of the two distinct DNA lines in her body, until they genetic samples from different locations of her body.

We know that DNA and sDNA are not quite the same thing, nor are they inherited quite in the same way. My guess is that Allomantic and Feruchemical spikes distort the sDNA and do not touch heritable sDNA or DNA, but perhaps the physical changes caused by the Iron spikes do leave lasting alterations to the DNA of the recipient - changes that are heritable through regular DNA.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

The OP seems well reasoned, @Trusk'our, though I think I would add one potential tweak:

I think this makes sense, but it might only be warping the person hot-swapping spikes for every new bindpoint utilized, but not necessarily for going back to a previously used spike and bindpoint - because the necessary warping would have already occurred at that junction, right?

Agreed: if a Bindpoint is already warped, it shouldn't change again when a spike is reapplied, but previously untouched Bindpoints should change.

Makes me wonder what would happen should someone deliberately use different Bindpoints each time, leading to more alterations over time. Perhaps they would see the warping an Inquisitor would get (extra height and a scratchy voice)?

[Duxredux he/him]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Makes me wonder what would happen should someone deliberately use different Bindpoints each time, leading to more alterations over time. Perhaps they would see the warping an Inquisitor would get (extra height and a scratchy voice)?

Not sure on extra height, but scratchy voice is probably the spikes punching holes in the chest cavity and lungs with the necessary physiological modification to make that survivable. 

Chest puncture wounds are dangerous because they introduce air into the chest cavity which causes the lung to collapse - and special occlusive bandages are needed to remove any introduced air. Considering all the physical activity that Inquisitors get to with those embedded spikes (and maybe they create air tight seals, but... even when swinging axes?), there must be substantial alteration to the respiratory system. The scratchy voice is likely a byproduct of that. If hot-swapping spikes becomes prevalent, those bindpoints might be avoided when you don't intend to retain the power granted alongside a punctured lung.