Rebuilding Devotion and Dominion

[Dofurion]

I've had this idea for a while now and I want to see if you think it's viable with the information we have now.

• We know that the tone of a shard attracts the investiture associated with it.
• We know that its anti-tone does the opposite and repels the investiture.
• Perpendicularities are points where the 3 realms overlap.

So, let's put this in perspective: Odium locked the shards of Devotion and Dominion in the Cognitive of Sel, there the investiture is in a state of immense pressure since it should not be there but rather in the Spiritual Realm where there is no concept of space. Theoretically, this investiture is very slowly returning to the spiritual according to the use that the inhabitants of Sel give it (but it is irriside given the amount we are talking about).

So couldn't we find a way to return that investiture to the Spiritual Realm with the information we have?

My proposal is the following: In the perpendicularity of Devotion, place a device that reproduces the tone of said shard and the anti-tone of Dominion. And do the opposite at the perpendicularity of Dominion. This should separate both types of investiture on those points.

Now this can't be that simple. While the perpendicularities that occur naturally due to the presence of a Shard on a planet link the three realms, this doesn't seem to be the case for the perpendicularities in Sel (whether due to interference from Odium or otherwise). So we'll need a Bondsmith to give them the necessary push or whatever other method is available to open a breach to the Spiritual.

After completing this process, I assume that the Shards will look for a new Vessel in the vicinity of the perpendicularities.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I've had this idea for a while now and I want to see if you think it's viable with the information we have now.

• We know that the tone of a shard attracts the investiture associated with it.
• We know that its anti-tone does the opposite and repels the investiture.
• Perpendicularities are points where the 3 realms overlap.

So, let's put this in perspective: Odium locked the shards of Devotion and Dominion in the Cognitive of Sel, there the investiture is in a state of immense pressure since it should not be there but rather in the Spiritual Realm where there is no concept of space. Theoretically, this investiture is very slowly returning to the spiritual according to the use that the inhabitants of Sel give it (but it is irriside given the amount we are talking about).

So couldn't we find a way to return that investiture to the Spiritual Realm with the information we have?

My proposal is the following: In the perpendicularity of Devotion, place a device that reproduces the tone of said shard and the anti-tone of Dominion. And do the opposite at the perpendicularity of Dominion. This should separate both types of investiture on those points.

Now this can't be that simple. While the perpendicularities that occur naturally due to the presence of a Shard on a planet link the three realms, this doesn't seem to be the case for the perpendicularities in Sel (whether due to interference from Odium or otherwise). So we'll need a Bondsmith to give them the necessary push or whatever other method is available to open a breach to the Spiritual.

After completing this process, I assume that the Shards will look for a new Vessel in the vicinity of the perpendicularities.

I don't think this would work. Firstly, investiture of Devotion and Dominion is now merged into the Dor, which is like Towerlight or Warlight and I don't know if a pure tone of only one Shard would affect it, or even separate it. Maybe if you were to first sing the rhythm of Dor with another person and slowly reach discord and end up singing tones of Devotion and Dominion - the reverse of what Navani and Raboniel did to create Warlight. Secondly, investiture doesn't return to SR, it returns back to CR once used. 

It may be possible to use a perpendicularity to return Dor to SR, but I don't think it would be that easy. I suspect we won't find a way to fix the Dor until we understand how Odium created the Dor in the first place and for that we probably have to wait for Elantris sequels.

Spoiler

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Spoiler

James Clifford

Science question!

Brandon Sanderson

Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science?

Adam Horne

It is Brandon science.

Brandon Sanderson

Fake science!

James Clifford

With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Investiture in the Cosmere when used goes to the Spiritual Realm, except in one place. What determines which Realm Investiture returns to when it's being used? 

Brandon Sanderson

Too many factors for me to actually say right here, Evgeni, so I'm gonna RAFO this one. There are lots of reasons that it could go in different ways and different places. 

Billy Todd

How many of those reasons are rule of cool? 

Brandon Sanderson

Rule of Cool is definitely a reason. I think he's trying to get at why on Sel things are weird, and I have not explained why things are weird on Sel yet. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[ChillPenguin]

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think this would work. Firstly, investiture of Devotion and Dominion is now merged into the Dor, which is like Towerlight or Warlight and I don't know if a pure tone of only one Shard would affect it, or even separate it. Maybe if you were to first sing the rhythm of Dor with another person and slowly reach discord and end up singing tones of Devotion and Dominion - the reverse of what Navani and Raboniel did to create Warlight. Secondly, investiture doesn't return to SR, it returns back to CR once used. 

It may be possible to use a perpendicularity to return Dor to SR, but I don't think it would be that easy. I suspect we won't find a way to fix the Dor until we understand how Odium created the Dor in the first place and for that we probably have to wait for Elantris sequels.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

James Clifford

Science question!

Brandon Sanderson

Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science?

Adam Horne

It is Brandon science.

Brandon Sanderson

Fake science!

James Clifford

With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

Investiture in the Cosmere when used goes to the Spiritual Realm, except in one place. What determines which Realm Investiture returns to when it's being used? 

Brandon Sanderson

Too many factors for me to actually say right here, Evgeni, so I'm gonna RAFO this one. There are lots of reasons that it could go in different ways and different places. 

Billy Todd

How many of those reasons are rule of cool? 

Brandon Sanderson

Rule of Cool is definitely a reason. I think he's trying to get at why on Sel things are weird, and I have not explained why things are weird on Sel yet. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

I just want to add that we’ve seen mixed condensed investiture be separated with solid Harmonium and Trellium as a catalyst. Yes it was a very violent separation and it didn’t work very well (made only small amounts of Lerasium and Atium). With tones and Trellium you probably could make it more efficient and less explosive.

That being said, I will paraphrase Brandon: you can do many things in the Cosmere but the question is how easy it is to do and if it would be a good idea to do it. The answer to those two things is probably “no.”  Since purified Dor is a thing and clearly Elantrians figured out how to use AonDor off Sel, the separation isn’t likely to happen. But I do think you could, to some degree, separate some of the investiture.

 

Try it with some captured Dor first in a small lab…. Away from anyone else…