Is Cultivations plan much bigger than Roshar/Odium? Is she playing a long game for Ado?

[FireCaste]

So, the more I read about Cultivation, the less sense her actions and dialogue makes to me in regards to the Stormlight Archive story so far.

Up to the Interlude, she seems not interested in ending the conflict over Roshar. Just cultivating some people to take up the fight against Odium, or replacing Rayse. So, without Cultivation, or the Nightwatcher involvement, Rodium would have steamrolled Roshar, but at least the conflict would be over.

What of her endgame is not limited to the conflict with Odium but something else entirely? And as there are some hints regarding Adonalsium, what if her plan has to do with him?

There are some points which got me thinking:

• She and Honor both settle on Roshar, against the agreement of the 16 not to get near to each other
• Why did they both chose Roshar in the first place? A heavily invested place, with sprens running around, in a star system with other....interesting planets. A place assumingly engineered by Adonalasium for a specific purpose (no tectonial activities, no obliquity, continent shaped like a Julia Set....)
• Per WoB, Odium needed permission from both Honor and Cultivation to also settle there. Why allow him in?
• At least one Dawnshard is/was hidden on Roshar
• The two voices whispering "Unite them" to Dalinar

 

So, what if she has the ultimate goal to reunite/reform Adonalasium? I mean obviously, 16 (now ~10) shards battling each other over the galaxy is not the best idea for anyone living there, be it Human, Singer, Dragon, Spren, Shards or whatever.

Either she realized this like the next day after the shattering or some time later, after Odium splintered the first shard. It may have to do with her being a dragon, but perhaps she is just the only sane one of the bunch (besides Hoid).

In this context, all her actions could be part of a master plan spanning the whole galaxy. E.g. perhaps she cultivated the heralds to cause the last desolation, as she needed the ~4500 year stagnation for the rest of the Shard-Planets to catch up to the Rosharan civilization. So I assume, her plan would be to cause a Shard-war across the galaxy and for this you would need opponents of mostly equal power.

Just so, that after all the other shards have battled each other to the ground, she (with the help of some "cultivated" individuals and perhaps the Dawnshards) unites the splitered pieces again. With herself as the vessel? Or maybe even someone else.

[listerfeend]

Interesting hypothesis. Maybe it's naive of me, but I constantly get stuck on the fact that we are told that Tanavast and Koravellium were "lovers", so it feels really strange to me any theory that pits Cultivation against Honor. You aren't necessarily saying that outright, but the implication would be that her actions were intended to end up with Tanavast dead. 

Although, it's certainly possible that after Tanavast's death, that became her goal. 

[The Sovereign]

28 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Interesting hypothesis. Maybe it's naive of me, but I constantly get stuck on the fact that we are told that Tanavast and Koravellium were "lovers", so it feels really strange to me any theory that pits Cultivation against Honor. You aren't necessarily saying that outright, but the implication would be that her actions were intended to end up with Tanavast dead. 

Although, it's certainly possible that after Tanavast's death, that became her goal. 

Keep in mind the Vessels could be in sync while the Powers were not. Also, there are several references to Honor kind of losing it around the end. I suspect he was mostly being overtaken by the Power/Intent. Think of an Elderly couple with one person suffering from Alzheimer's or Dementia; There is a point where the person isn't really themself anymore. If Tanavast hit that point, then Koravellium may have felt she had to act.

Edited September 20 by The Sovereign
Some grammar issues...

[listerfeend]

6 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Keep in mind the Vessels could be in sync while the Powers were not. Also, there are several references to Honor kind of losing it around the end. I suspect he was mostly being overtaken by the Power/Intent. Think of an Elderly couple with one person suffering from Alzheimer's or Dementia; There is a point where the person isn't really themself anymore. If Tanavast hit that point, then Koravellium may have felt she had to act.

That's true enough, but I feel like the implication is that Honor was wounded/damaged somehow, and that lead to the decline. Otherwise he wouldn't have been Splintered, he just would have dropped the shard like what happened to Leras, right? Or am I crazy? 

 

Edited September 20 by listerfeend
clarification

[The Sovereign]

2 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That's true enough, but I feel like the implication is that Honor was wounded/damaged somehow, and that lead to the decline. Otherwise he would have been Splintered, he just would have dropped the shard like what happened to Leras, right? Or am I crazy? 

 

Being seriously wounded could certainly lead to Tanavast losing his Autonomy from the Intent of Honor. Regarding him being Splintered I'm fairly sure that happened due to Odium intentionally Splintering Honor.

[Acolyte of Radiance]

This may be the case, we just don’t know enough about Adolnadium and the shattering motives to say if this is the truth,I feel like the shattering was them basically trying to kill adol and hoping one of them got his full power,not that it would split.(sry I went off on a tangent

[listerfeend]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:48 PM, The Sovereign said:

Being seriously wounded could certainly lead to Tanavast losing his Autonomy from the Intent of Honor. Regarding him being Splintered I'm fairly sure that happened due to Odium intentionally Splintering Honor.

My thought on that was:

Odium is bound to Braize (somehow)
Tanavast died on Roshar (somehow)
The Shard Honor was Splintered on Roshar (somehow)

If Odium was on Braize (there was no true Desolation happening) how was he able to Splinter the Shard if he wasn't there. I've been told that the restrictions were specifically that he could take no action against people on Roshar, unless they were fully given to Odium and that's the reason why (that's explained in the Interludes). However, that doesn't seem entirely clear that that is the full extent of the binding that is going on. Seems to me there are rules about what Odium is allowed to do during a Desolation, and between them, and they aren't exactly the same. If he was able to act off planet in between Desolations, seems like the Everstorm and everything like that should have happened way way way earlier than it currently is. When Leras died, Preservation was dropped right away, intact, for Kelsier to pick up, and then pass along to Vin, who passed it along to Sazed when she died. But Honor just...fell splintered? Odium was able to nab it and Splinter it? Does Splintering happen in the SR? 

[The Sovereign]

16 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Does Splintering happen in the SR? 

It likely happens on all three realms, with that said, we know under normal circumstances the majority of a Shard is contained in the Spiritual Realm. This also accounts for distance as the Spiritual Realm is all locations and none.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Odium is bound to Braize (somehow)
Tanavast died on Roshar (somehow)
The Shard Honor was Splintered on Roshar (somehow)

Odium is bound to the Rosharan system as a whole, not just to Braize. He certainly has a lesser ability to influence and act on Roshar outside of a Desolation (but he still can do that, he was with Dalinar all the time), but I don't think this would matter during a direct confrontation with Honor.

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

[...]

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

When Leras died, Preservation was dropped right away,

Not really. Leras died thousands of years before Era 1 was happening - he constantly reminded Kelsier about this. He was already dead at that point, just not fully. The same happened with Honor - Honor's death took some time. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

But Honor just...fell splintered? Odium was able to nab it and Splinter it?

Well, there was nobody to pick up the Shard, so Odium was able to Splinter it fully after killing its Vessel. Preservation was being Splintered when Kelsier Ascended and that prevented Ruin from finishing the job. SH ch 6-4:

Quote

Kelsier, he’s splitting my power. He’s breaking it apart. It will be gone . . . Splintered. . . . He’ll destroy it.

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Does Splintering happen in the SR? 

It transcends all realms.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the shattering [Splintering] of Honor happen in the Cognitive Realm, and Ruin in the Physical? *Brandon laughs* The reason I'm wondering is, are spren the expression of the shattering in the Cognitive Realm while Ruin's physical being is an expression of the shattering in the Physical?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an interesting theory that I don't want to completely shoot down, but it is not heading in absolutely correct directions. The [Spintering] of a Shard is an event that transcends all three Realms.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

[FireCaste]

On 9/20/2024 at 2:57 PM, listerfeend said:

Interesting hypothesis. Maybe it's naive of me, but I constantly get stuck on the fact that we are told that Tanavast and Koravellium were "lovers", so it feels really strange to me any theory that pits Cultivation against Honor. You aren't necessarily saying that outright, but the implication would be that her actions were intended to end up with Tanavast dead. 

Although, it's certainly possible that after Tanavast's death, that became her goal. 

I picture Cultivation as Kelsier on steroids. Plans within plans and "There's always another secret" x 9000

So perhaps there was a plan A1 to reunite Ado with Honor still alive. That didn't happen due to unforseen shard stuff and after 8.000 years we are currently on plan V389³.

Her taking direct action (probably) in the next week chapters 16/17 will be reeeeaaally interesting!

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 9/21/2024 at 12:15 AM, listerfeend said:

That's true enough, but I feel like the implication is that Honor was wounded/damaged somehow, and that lead to the decline. Otherwise he wouldn't have been Splintered, he just would have dropped the shard like what happened to Leras, right? Or am I crazy? 

 

I sometimes wonder that since Tanavast was holding Honor, Honor is all about making oaths and keeping them, Is it possible that when his Heralds abandoned the oathpact, their actions hurt Honor, wounded him and made him weak. 

I also believe that a new vessel is more capable of doing things that are not exactly in line with their shards Intent. But as 1000s years pass, it becomes more and more difficult for them to diverge. So, Tanavast was able to use whatever loophole existed to settle on Roshar with Cultivation but as time passed, that action also hurt him. 

I know that Honor was already dying or that he was going mad, but I wonder if The Recreance, where so many KRs broke their oaths, hurt him also to the extent that it proved to be the final nail on his coffin. 

 

Edited September 24 by Aon Tia

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:48 PM, The Sovereign said:

Being seriously wounded could certainly lead to Tanavast losing his Autonomy from the Intent of Honor. Regarding him being Splintered I'm fairly sure that happened due to Odium intentionally Splintering Honor.

That actually reminds me of an old theory i had i dont think Odium was the one who splintered Honor, i think it was Cultivation. Basically every splintering we know to attribute to Odium was super messy and left their respective planets some type of untraversable either the subastral or the actual planet.

Plus Honors shattering left more than enough around for someone to reassemble the shard, Devotion, Dominion and Ambition arent remotely this easy to reassemble

My theory was that while Tanavast had some lucid moment he went to Cultivation and asked to be splintered in a very specific way maybe with some of cultivations foresight. 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Aon Tia said:

I sometimes wonder that since Tanavast was holding Honor, Honor is all about making oaths and keeping them, Is it possible that when his Heralds abandoned the oathpact, their actions hurt Honor, wounded him and made him weak. 

We have a WoB on this, the answer is no. 

Spoiler

Wetlander

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Wetlander

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, indeed.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

5 hours ago, Aon Tia said:

So, Tanavast was able to use whatever loophole existed to settle on Roshar with Cultivation but as time passed, that action also hurt him. 

Not the case. Shards didn't make an official Oath, just a "suggestion" and it was loose enough to allow them to settle together if all parties agreed to it.

But here is a catch - Honor allowed Odium to settle on Roshar, what if by permanently imprisoning Odium in the system, Honor strained or broken this agreement, which weakened him enough to allow Odium to eventually Splinter him? However, if Honor straight up broke his word by doing so, Odium would have been freed and the chains binding him would disappear. So this might be related, but it wasn't a broken oath or a word - some loophole at most. 

Spoiler

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[+robardin he/him]

I will say this, as I had said even since the end of RoW:

Taravangian, who Ascended to Odium specifically due to the machinations of Cultivation, still thinks he knows more / can plan around Cultivation.

You have no idea what you've done.

O Rly? When you were all but groomed -- pruned, if you will -- to reach this point, just as Dalinar's actions threaded a very narrow needle's eye in not becoming Odium's Champion, as so many future paths foreseen had led to?

16 hours ago, FireCaste said:

I picture Cultivation as Kelsier on steroids. Plans within plans and "There's always another secret" x 9000

So perhaps there was a plan A1 to reunite Ado with Honor still alive. That didn't happen due to unforseen shard stuff and after 8.000 years we are currently on plan V389³.

Her taking direct action (probably) in the next week chapters 16/17 will be reeeeaaally interesting!

That's a great description, LOL. I think she and Kell would get along quite well, if they were aligned.

As for what her end game/goal is, well, I don't think it's to Bring Back Adonalsium (else why Shatter Ado in the first place...?), but we'll see!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:46 AM, Aon Tia said:

I also believe that a new vessel is more capable of doing things that are not exactly in line with their shards Intent. But as 1000s years pass, it becomes more and more difficult for them to diverge. So, Tanavast was able to use whatever loophole existed to settle on Roshar with Cultivation but as time passed, that action also hurt him.

I'd say that the agreement said something like "I will not tresspass onto another Shard's territory." Going somewhere together is not tresspassing.

On 9/24/2024 at 2:50 PM, robardin said:

That's a great description, LOL. I think she and Kell would get along quite well, if they were aligned.

As for what her end game/goal is, well, I don't think it's to Bring Back Adonalsium (else why Shatter Ado in the first place...?), but we'll see!

Her end goal is probably to survive in order to cultivate.

As far as she sees it the other Shards want her to sacrifice herself to stop Odium. Honor, being honorable, agreed to do the honorable thing. Honor, however, is splintered. Cultivation simply has no interest in binding Odium to Roshar. It is suicidial. She does not like him, but if the other Shards want Odium neutralized, well, then they better fight him and his allies. She will watch and cultivate the remains.
Rayse was not ready to leave Roshar behind in an undestroyed state. That is why he had to be eliminated.

And, yes, that is what Kelsier would do.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:50 AM, robardin said:

I will say this, as I had said even since the end of RoW:

Taravangian, who Ascended to Odium specifically due to the machinations of Cultivation, still thinks he knows more / can plan around Cultivation.

You have no idea what you've done.

O Rly? When you were all but groomed -- pruned, if you will -- to reach this point, just as Dalinar's actions threaded a very narrow needle's eye in not becoming Odium's Champion, as so many future paths foreseen had led to?...

I have always suspected that Cultivation is the real villain of the Stormlight Archive, and, like you, I think Taravangian is a fool to believe he will outfox her; the hubris of a moderately intelligent man suddenly inundated with massive amounts of power.

The entry at the coppermind re: Taravangian's ascension suggest that his connections to the "Old Magic" were obliterated when he took up Odium, I don't agree with that at all (and if I recall correctly, Brandon has been coy about confirming/denying this). Taravangian didn't actually die, he's not a cognitive shadow holding a shard, he's still connected to the old magic, and I think that gives Cultivation a crucial advantage over him.