WaT Chapters 14 / 15

[+Child of Hodor]

4 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Happen to be rereading Edgedancer rn, and it almost certainly feels like Lifespren are Edgedancer platespren? Get more mentions around Lift than windspren to Kaladin and creationspren to Shallan. Wonder if Bondsmith use the same spren as other orders, but after reading this I’m 80% lifespren are edgedancer armor

I think Bondsmith platespren are gloryspren. An "impossible" number of them swirl around him as he creates the perpendicularity in OB.  They could be showing up just because he's doing something glorious, but they usually ring around a person's head briefly. These were swirling around his whole body in a pillar.  

Before that as Dalinar is kneeling on the ground trying not to give into Odium a single gloryspren swirls around him and Odium swats it away. 

I can't think of another strong candidate for bondsmith platespren as far as spren that hang out around Dalinar a lot other than angerspren and that's more to do with his beserker raging youth. 

[listerfeend]

9 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I can't think of another strong candidate for bondsmith platespren as far as spren that hang out around Dalinar a lot other than angerspren and that's more to do with his beserker raging youth. 

I would also be VERY willing to bet that each of the 3 Bondsmith, if they get plate (which I assume they do), they could very well each have different plate spren. It seems the Spren you are Bonded with as a Bondsmith very much change certain aspects of the Bond. Navani being stuck in the Tower, for instance.

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I would also be VERY willing to bet that each of the 3 Bondsmith, if they get plate (which I assume they do), they could very well each have different plate spren. It seems the Spren you are Bonded with as a Bondsmith very much change certain aspects of the Bond. Navani being stuck in the Tower, for instance.

That's a good point. Bondsmiths each have special radiant spren that are extremely distinct from each other as far as whether they are more of Honor or Cultivation.  They aren't really one subtype of spren like Honorspren or Cryptics. It would make sense for them to have different platespren.  

[listerfeend]

Just now, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good point. Bondsmiths each have special radiant spren that are extremely distinct from each other as far as whether they are more of Honor or Cultivation.  They aren't really one subtype of spren like Honorspren or Cryptics. It would make sense for them to have different platespren.

That's basically my thought. I also wouldn't be surprised if Navani's plate spren would be a mix of whatever the platespren of Nightwatcher and Stormfather would be. The going theory for Dalinar would be Gloryspren, Nightwatcher Lifespren make the most sense. So maybe Sibling plate spren would be both?

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

36 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That's basically my thought. I also wouldn't be surprised if Navani's plate spren would be a mix of whatever the platespren of Nightwatcher and Stormfather would be. The going theory for Dalinar would be Gloryspren, Nightwatcher Lifespren make the most sense. So maybe Sibling plate spren would be both?

Tbh aso cuts into a theory ive had that Bondsmith powersets dont overlap.
Kinda with the nature of how spren work and etc. i thought the surges the bondsmith spren embody might be different. Especially with Adhesion being  tied to honor in a way no other surge seemingly is.

I had the idea that cultivations bondsmith might have access to the same surges as truthwatchers
while Navani might have both adhesion and progression. 

I cant find the WOB but Brandon has said truthwatchers can also do spiritual shenanigans and are related to bondsmiths in a way.

Edit: Found the WOB

Quote

TGJackass

The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

Tho the Surgebinding chart kinda disproves that ive been looking at radiant orders way too long ever since these chapters dropped.

Edited Thursday at 01:38 PM by MarcieIsForager

[Atlas333]

2 hours ago, listerfeend said:

That's basically my thought. I also wouldn't be surprised if Navani's plate spren would be a mix of whatever the platespren of Nightwatcher and Stormfather would be. The going theory for Dalinar would be Gloryspren, Nightwatcher Lifespren make the most sense. So maybe Sibling plate spren would be both?

I'm willing to bet that Sibling platespren will be keenspren, given that they've so far only shown up around Navani after her bond. 

[Kesamijr]

2 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

I'm willing to bet that Sibling platespren will be keenspren, given that they've so far only shown up around Navani after her bond. 

I think Keenspren are Radiant spren?

Probably just a soon to be radiant announcing themselves in that case.

i can’t strike through here idk why. But this is wrong

On the wiki keenspren are listed as Radiant spren, but we know all the radiant spren? So this is actually a great guess yeah. And makes sense that she’d just start seeing them cuz hers and the Sibling’s bond wasn’t necessarily “supposed” to happen. B Sands also says keenspren is a nickname so maybe they are radiant spren? I can’t tell lmao.

Also also, saw a theory I really liked the other day that was basically: Lift currently has TWO spren bonds, one of which is the Nightwatcher, so we already have the 3rd Bondsmith. Cuz right now it’s rub-y that the Nightwatcher Bondsmith would have the same platespren as an Edgedancer. Makes me think either:

a) It’s just a weird rub that only happens here and their platespren are the same

b) we just have it wrong and it’ll be like luckspren or joyspren or something

c) lifespan around Lift is a red herring cuz of her condition

d) Lift already IS the bondsmith which is why she always has lifespan around her

or e) the Nightwatcher isn’t the 3rd bondsmith spren it’s like BAM or something? Maybe the nightwatcher has been confirmed but there’s a weird overlap here but nowhere else based on how we’re theorizing right now.

 

 

 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

I'm willing to bet that Sibling platespren will be keenspren, given that they've so far only shown up around Navani after her bond. 

One spren that Navani has never before seen in her life? A spren which name she knew meaning it's a known type of spren spotted by other people on Roshar? And that spren is the Sibling's platespren? I'm not really buying this. There are some spren which are very rare, like Gloomspren seen by Kaladin. OB ch 5:

Quote

“Wow,” Syl said. “Gloomspren.”
Kaladin looked up and noted an unusual spren whipping about. Long, grey, like a tattered streamer of cloth in the wind. It wound around him, fluttering. He’d seen its like only once or twice before.
“Why are they so rare?” Kaladin asked. “People feel gloomy all the time.”
“Who knows?” Syl said. “Some spren are common. Some are uncommon.”

 

59 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

I think Keenspren are Radiant spren?

Probably just a soon to be radiant announcing themselves in that case.

i can’t strike through here idk why. But this is wrong

On the wiki keenspren are listed as Radiant spren, but we know all the radiant spren?

We know all 10 types of Radiant spren and Keenspren is not one of them. 

The WoB on which wiki is based said only that Keenspren is a nickname but Brandon neither confirmed nor denied if they are Radiant spren. I'm pretty sure with its appearance in recent WaT chapter we can safely say it's just an emotion spren and the WoB is outdated or there is just another name for Keenspren. 

Spoiler

Windrunner17

We now know all nine types of true spren that make up Radiants, but Wyndle has mentioned making a garden for keenspren. Are these an intelligent spren that does not form Radiant bonds, and are there others?

Brandon Sanderson

Keenspren is a nickname.

Adam Horne

I was wondering if that was a slang term.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it's a slang term.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, Kesamijr said:

or e) the Nightwatcher isn’t the 3rd bondsmith spren it’s like BAM or something? Maybe the nightwatcher has been confirmed but there’s a weird overlap here but nowhere else based on how we’re theorizing right now.

Nightwatcher was confirmed by the Stormfather to be a Bondsmith spren.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm pretty sure with its appearance in recent WaT chapter we can safely say it's just an emotion spren and the WoB is outdated or there is just another name for Keenspren. 

The description matches how mistspren look:

Quote

A solitary keenspren, like a marvelous three-dimensional gradient of color, appeared above her. She gasped—it was the first she’d ever seen.

They also have conversations, which doesn't make sense if they aren't sapient spren:

Quote

"Mistress," Wyndle said, "that was the strangest conversation I've ever heard, and I once grew an entire garden for some keenspren."

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

4 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Also also, saw a theory I really liked the other day that was basically: Lift currently has TWO spren bonds, one of which is the Nightwatcher, so we already have the 3rd Bondsmith

Oh cool I love that idea, mind sharing where you saw the theory? It would be neat if Bondsmiths all can somehow make Light, so you have Dalinar making the perpendicularity, Navani with Towerlight and the Sibling, then Lift metabolizing food into Lifelight.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The description matches how mistspren look:

You have a point, their description does look similar, so maybe they are Mistspren. But why would a Mistspren be attracted to her at that moment? She was overjoyed due to her acknowledging her self-worth and becoming a Radiant, which seems like a Lightweaver/Elsecaller thing to me, not Truthwatcher. Yes, the Truthwatcher's bits were still there, the excitement for science and future discoveries, but I don't think it was a dominant feeling. And that would be the first time when a True Spren was attracted to simple emotions - which is weird on its own. Maybe the awakening of the Sibling made them act like this, but I still think we can't say for sure a Keenspren is a Radiant spren, although it seems far more likely to me. 

Where is that image from? I don't recognize it from this fragment.

14 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They also have conversations, which doesn't make sense if they aren't sapient spren:

Another good point, but I have to say that Windspren sometimes talks. So maybe that's why Wyndle referred to Keenspren as he heard non-sapient spren talking to each other and yet Lift still made a weird conversation than Keenspren.

And that made me think - what if their similarity to Mistspren and potential ability to talk is an indication that they are a platespren of Truthwacthers? Windspren are almost unrecognizable from Honorspren, they can look exactly the same, they can talk and even use Adhesion, so why can't other spren have a similar relation with their platespren? Rarity wouldn’t prevent them from being a Keenspren - Logicspren are very rare in the east, yet they’re Elsecaller’s platespren.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

She was overjoyed due to her acknowledging her self-worth and becoming a Radiant, which seems like a Lightweaver/Elsecaller thing to me, not Truthwatcher. Yes, the Truthwatcher's bits were still there, the excitement for science and future discoveries, but I don't think it was a dominant feeling.

That's fair, I'm not entirely sure either.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

And that would be the first time when a True Spren was attracted to simple emotions - which is weird on its own.

Syl was attracted to Kaladin. If it only just transitioned, it might still be in that primal state where it's not as aware yet.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Where is that image from? I don't recognize it from this fragment.

RPG, picture was shared in this Kickstarter update.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I have to say that Windspren sometimes talks. So maybe that's why Wyndle referred to Keenspren as he heard non-sapient spren talking to each other and yet Lift still made a weird conversation than Keenspren.

Only a little bit (WoR 6):

Spoiler

In her quarters, Pattern moved up the wall beside her, watching without eyes as she searched for a passage she remembered, which mentioned spren that spoke. Not just windspren and riverspren, which would mimic people and make playful comments. Those were a step up from ordinary spren, but there was yet another level of spren, one rarely seen. Spren like Pattern, who had real conversations with people.

It doesn't sound like they can do full conversations.

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

what if their similarity to Mistspren and potential ability to talk is an indication that they are a platespren of Truthwacthers?

Oh that could be cool. I think outright being mistspren is more likely for the reason above, but if this turned out to be true I wouldn't be shocked.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Syl was attracted to Kaladin. If it only just transitioned, it might still be in that primal state where it's not as aware yet.

That's true, this is a possible and likely explanation. However, I wouldn't call Kaladin's emotion's simple and there was also a voice (the Wind?) involved in Syl's transition. But on the other hand maybe Navani's emotions were vastly deeper at that moment because they were related to a great revelation about a fundamental part of her identity. Calling them simple would be a misservice.

29 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

RPG, picture was shared in this Kickstarter update.

Thanks, missed that.

30 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Only a little bit (WoR 6):

  Reveal hidden contents

In her quarters, Pattern moved up the wall beside her, watching without eyes as she searched for a passage she remembered, which mentioned spren that spoke. Not just windspren and riverspren, which would mimic people and make playful comments. Those were a step up from ordinary spren, but there was yet another level of spren, one rarely seen. Spren like Pattern, who had real conversations with people.

It doesn't sound like they can do full conversations.

That's why it would be so weird - they can't have a logical conversation, they just say random words or mimic each other. They still talk to each other, so it's a conversation, but it just makes no sense at all, so Wyndle can compare Lift's nonsense to this situation. 

[Ninth of the Night]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

But why would a Mistspren be attracted to her at that moment? She was overjoyed due to her acknowledging her self-worth and becoming a Radiant, which seems like a Lightweaver/Elsecaller thing to me, not Truthwatcher.

Syl was drawn to Navani as well. According to Kaladin, all of the spren had a new strange way of behaving when in her presence.

So that could possibly explain why a random Mistspren was hovering around her. Probably unbonded, sure, but I doubt that means it wants to bond Navani specifically. As mentioned, it could have just crossed into the Physical Realm leaving it barely self aware, so it just followed the source of a good feeling. Chances are once it wakes some more it'll find a new Radiant to bond with.