The Sibling and the bond

[Malim he/him]

So this topic came up in the Stormlight board, and one of the questions raised was the timeline of the capturing of BAM, the Recreance, and the lessening or breaking of the Sibling's bond with Melishi.  Sorry to bring it here, but a thought occured to me that is solidly in WaT spoiler territory.

It was revealed that Navani's bond with the Sibling is limited both spacialy and in time.  Specifically, she cannot leave the Tower for prolonged periods without the bond weakening.  Could this be a clue as to what happened between Melishi and the Sibling?  Melishi leaves the Tower to hunt down BAM, maybe because he/she (can't remember if gender was ever stated) was the only active Bondsmith.  This weakened the bond and led to the reduction in power and withdraw of the Sibling that we see in the Gem Archive.  Melishi still had enough of a bond to do whatever needed to be done, and captured BAM in the Spirit Realm.  Then the bond was totally severed.

 

This could explain why the Sibling wasn't deadeyed, but why they withdrew.  It could also explain part of why the Sibling doesn't like humans.  From their perspective, they were abandoned, and a Spren was imprisoned. 

Any thoughts?

 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Malim said:

It was revealed that Navani's bond with the Sibling is limited both spacialy and in time.  Specifically, she cannot leave the Tower for prolonged periods without the bond weakening.  Could this be a clue as to what happened between Melishi and the Sibling?  Melishi leaves the Tower to hunt down BAM, maybe because he/she (can't remember if gender was ever stated) was the only active Bondsmith.  This weakened the bond and led to the reduction in power and withdraw of the Sibling that we see in the Gem Archive.  Melishi still had enough of a bond to do whatever needed to be done, and captured BAM in the Spirit Realm.  Then the bond was totally severed.

I'm 100% sure this wasn't it. The reduction of power would manifest in the same way as Syl leaving Kaladin for longer - his powers would fade but the bond would remain, when reunited he would regain his powers (we've seen this a little in WoR). But this shouldn't break the bond or affect the Sibling because they can create their own light - Towerlight - and with it power all functions and fabrials of the Tower, with or without the bond. I can't believe that there wasn't a longer period of time with unbonded Sibling in the past - if loss of the bond caused Urithiru to fail, this would have happened periodically in the past, yet Radiants had no clue what was happening with the Tower before the Recreance. Moreover, the hunt for BAM was not happening at the time of recording the gem archive and abandoning Urithiru - it was still being planned and they even said they would need Melishi for this in the future. 

The death of Honor and the wound caused by capturing BAM caused the Sibling to lose its ability to hear their own Tone and create the Towerlight, but something else was happening to the Sibling which made some protections and fabrials to fail. It was also said that the Sibling was the one who broke their bond - if the bond was broken after Mishram was captured, the Sibling would have become a Deadeye.

[Malim he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I'm 100% sure this wasn't it. The reduction of power would manifest in the same way as Syl leaving Kaladin for longer - his powers would fade but the bond would remain, when reunited he would regain his powers (we've seen this a little in WoR). But this shouldn't break the bond or affect the Sibling because they can create their own light - Towerlight - and with it power all functions and fabrials of the Tower, with or without the bond. I can't believe that there wasn't a longer period of time with unbonded Sibling in the past - if loss of the bond caused Urithiru to fail, this would have happened periodically in the past, yet Radiants had no clue what was happening with the Tower before the Recreance. Moreover, the hunt for BAM was not happening at the time of recording the gem archive and abandoning Urithiru - it was still being planned and they even said they would need Melishi for this in the future. 

The death of Honor and the wound caused by capturing BAM caused the Sibling to lose its ability to hear their own Tone and create the Towerlight, but something else was happening to the Sibling which made some protections and fabrials to fail. It was also said that the Sibling was the one who broke their bond - if the bond was broken after Mishram was captured, the Sibling would have become a Deadeye.

Could this have been something preemptive on the Sibling's part then?  Melishi is going to try to capture BAM.  They don't know what, if any, the implications will be, so they take precautions.  Melishi creates the defences, the Sibling starts to withdraw, and the plan goes ahead.  Sure they didn't know what exactly would happen with greater Connection, they may have not even thought about it, but could this simply be a fail safe?

Another thought: what if the plan itself went against the Sibling's beliefs?  They don't like Spren being captured and held after all.  I could see a scenario playing out like between Kaladin and Syl when he was going along with the plan to kill Elhokar.  The Sibling starts to lose themself, and withdraws, but in the actual moment, they break the bond, not Melishi.  Would this still deadeye them?  Not necessarily if it happened at the same time.  The Sibling is on a higher level than Syl after all, maybe they were able to sever the bond themselves without as many drawbacks.  If the bond had been already lessened, it might work.

It's problematic I know, but I think it is at least a possible action given the timeline we suspect.

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I can't believe that there wasn't a longer period of time with unbonded Sibling in the past - if loss of the bond caused Urithiru to fail, this would have happened periodically in the past, yet Radiants had no clue what was happening with the Tower before the Recreance. Moreover, the hunt for BAM was not happening at the time of recording the gem archive and abandoning Urithiru - it was still being planned and they even said they would need Melishi for this in the future. 

Two things: I’m pretty sure the Sibling makes a comment that they used to choose their bonds very carefully. I’d imagine that implies there were definitely times without a Sibling Bondsmith. Also, the gem archive wasn’t necessarily created all at once - one gem comments on the singer’s push towards Feverstone Keep, which would be pre-BAM binding, while another comments on the effects it seemingly had, which would be after.

 

It’s the Honorspren who say that it was the Sibling that ended the bond, and they wouldn’t actually know what happened. My guess for what actually happened is Melishi died before they could break their Oath, either as a consequence of binding BAM in the Spiritual Realm or of something else. But Melishi exiling themselves from Urithiru, then living until they died of natural causes, would probably have a similar effect.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Malim said:

Could this have been something preemptive on the Sibling's part then?  Melishi is going to try to capture BAM.  They don't know what, if any, the implications will be, so they take precautions.  Melishi creates the defences, the Sibling starts to withdraw, and the plan goes ahead.  Sure they didn't know what exactly would happen with greater Connection, they may have not even thought about it, but could this simply be a fail safe?

I highly doubt it. The plan wasn't even fully drafted when the Tower was already failing and Melishi wasn't involved in its creation - it was scholar Radiants. Also it was suggested by one record that the Sibling withdrew unintentionally, something affected them before all of this was happening. 

15 hours ago, Malim said:

Another thought: what if the plan itself went against the Sibling's beliefs?  They don't like Spren being captured and held after all.  I could see a scenario playing out like between Kaladin and Syl when he was going along with the plan to kill Elhokar.  The Sibling starts to lose themself, and withdraws, but in the actual moment, they break the bond, not Melishi.  Would this still deadeye them?  Not necessarily if it happened at the same time.  The Sibling is on a higher level than Syl after all, maybe they were able to sever the bond themselves without as many drawbacks.  If the bond had been already lessened, it might work.

This might have contributed to the disagreement between the Sibling and Radiants, but this can't be the sole reason. Kaladin swore two conflicting Oaths which was the root of his problem, Melishi wasn't even involved in the planning so I doubt he would have any reason to swear something like that. Syl was losing her mind because she needs Kaladin to think in the Physical Realm - the god spren like Stormfather or the Sibling don't need that. They are fully capable of thinking and existing in the Physical Realm on their own (yes, the bond changes them and expands their mind, but they all think clearly without it). The Sibling shouldn't have been affected by unkept Oaths like Syl was. 

Breaking the bond before Mishram was captured shouldn't cause the Sibling to lose themselves like this, they would just lose the bond and be fine with all systems online. Breaking the bond during the imprisonment would either result in Melishi's inability to complete the process, or the Sibling would turn deadeye once the process was finished (assuming Bondsmith powers were needed to imprison Mishram, which I seriously doubt based on two other examples of Unmades being captured - you just need someone who knows that Unnamed very well and who can open themselves for them).

 

12 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

while another comments on the effects it seemingly had, which would be after.

No, it could have. No gem was recorded after Mishram's imprisonment. OB ch 81 epigraphs:

Quote

"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects."

 

13 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

It’s the Honorspren who say that it was the Sibling that ended the bond, and they wouldn’t actually know what happened.

They may not know what actually happened, but spren know when somebody is bonded - the Sibling was able to tell that Rlain was already taken. They were other spren who survived the Recreance (Blended for example), they would be the ones who knew there was no Bondsmith during Recreance and the Sibling broke their bond with Melishi. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I highly doubt it. The plan wasn't even fully drafted when the Tower was already failing and Melishi wasn't involved in its creation - it was scholar Radiants. Also it was suggested by one record that the Sibling withdrew unintentionally, something affected them before all of this was happening.

Then why did the Sibling withdraw? The three main things thag were happening at that time were BAM being being bound, the Recreance, and Honor fully dying - in that order. If all the gems are pre-Binding, then the Sibling would have to be withdrawing for some other reason.

In RoW, the Sibling also specifically calls out that they lost the Tone of Honor on the same day BAM was bound.

Also Navani bonding the Sibling patched over the problem - if these happened before, Melishi’s bond should have had the same effect.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

(assuming Bondsmith powers were needed to imprison Mishram, which I seriously doubt based on two other examples of Unmades being captured - you just need someone who knows that Unnamed very well and who can open themselves for them).

I’m pretty sure what you need is a strong Connection to the Unmade - which non-Bondsmiths can make over time, but Bondsmiths can much more easily produce. Plus the archive specifically calls out they need Melishi.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, it could have. No gem was recorded after Mishram's imprisonment. OB ch 81 epigraphs:

Ah, fair. Misremembered that one. But I still do think the timing is mixed up.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

They may not know what actually happened, but spren know when somebody is bonded - the Sibling was able to tell that Rlain was already taken. They were other spren who survived the Recreance (Blended for example), they would be the ones who knew there was no Bondsmith during Recreance and the Sibling broke their bond with Melishi. 

I highly doubt that’s a hard and fast rule, otherwise Ivory would have called out Pattern to Jasnah in WoK / Pattern called out Syl to Shallan in WoR (or as a deeper cut, known Syl had survived the Recreance). The Sibling’s more aware of what goes on in their tower.

If they’d really known how, I’d imagine they’d also really known why as well. The whole “we chose” thing seemed a surprise to everyone involved.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Then why did the Sibling withdraw? The three main things thag were happening at that time were BAM being being bound, the Recreance, and Honor fully dying - in that order. If all the gems are pre-Binding, then the Sibling would have to be withdrawing for some other reason.

OB ch 67, 68 and 70 epigraphs:

Quote

"This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing."

"My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent- but I find counter to that theory."

"Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue."

Honor was already in the process of dying (it was a protracted event)  and he changed in some way (he was also raving about Dawnshards at the same time). Something was happening to the Sibling, something that the Sibling might not even have any control over, which others perceived as the Sibling withdrawing. I wouldn't be surprised if Honor's death throes affected the Sibling. 

It's also possible that whatever Mishram did to Connect herself to every Singer, affected the Sibling as well. After all, if her imprisonment wounded everyone who belonged to Roshar, the very act of forging that Connection might have caused the Sibling to behave weirdly. However this is highly speculative. 

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I’m pretty sure what you need is a strong Connection to the Unmade - which non-Bondsmiths can make over time, but Bondsmiths can much more easily produce. Plus the archive specifically calls out they need Melishi.

Yes, Connection can be forged, but that doesn't give you understanding. Read again the chapter in which Dalinar captured the Thrill (OB 120) - it's because Dalinar understood it on the deepest level possible that he was able to open himself to it and embrace it. A forged Connection won't provide you this kind of understanding. 

Yes, the gemstone said they need Melishi, but this can also mean that Melishi was the only one who understood Mishram like Dalinar understood Nergaoul.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Ah, fair. Misremembered that one. But I still do think the timing is mixed up.

I don't really see any evidence for this. It seems to me like the decision was made to abandon the Tower and Radiants were allowed to make a time capsule. During Recreance the Sibling was unbonded and abandoned, the Oathgates were already closed, nobody would be allowed to enter the Tower to record anything shortly before.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I highly doubt that’s a hard and fast rule, otherwise Ivory would have called out Pattern to Jasnah in WoK / Pattern called out Syl to Shallan in WoR (or as a deeper cut, known Syl had survived the Recreance). The Sibling’s more aware of what goes on in their tower.

The situation between the Sibling and Ivory/Pattern/Syl was a bit different. The Sibling was looking at the potential candidates for a bond, while others were already bonded and wouldn't be looking at others deeply enough to notice their bonds.

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

If they’d really known how, I’d imagine they’d also really known why as well. The whole “we chose” thing seemed a surprise to everyone involved.

But they didn't know how. They just knew the Sibling broke their bond before the Recreance, but they didn't know why they made such a decision and how they knew to do that. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Honor was already in the process of dying (it was a protracted event)  and he changed in some way (he was also raving about Dawnshards at the same time). Something was happening to the Sibling, something that the Sibling might not even have any control over, which others perceived as the Sibling withdrawing. I wouldn't be surprised if Honor's death throes affected the Sibling. 

It's also possible that whatever Mishram did to Connect herself to every Singer, affected the Sibling as well. After all, if her imprisonment wounded everyone who belonged to Roshar, the very act of forging that Connection might have caused the Sibling to behave weirdly. However this is highly speculative. 

Mishram's actions and binding seems to be what the Sibling themself thinks is the issue, in RoW 49. They say they lost Honor's tone when BAM was bound, and that Honor could have helped but was too mad (and soon after too dead) to do so. Not before.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Connection can be forged, but that doesn't give you understanding. Read again the chapter in which Dalinar captured the Thrill (OB 120) - it's because Dalinar understood it on the deepest level possible that he was able to open himself to it and embrace it. A forged Connection won't provide you this kind of understanding. 

Yes, the gemstone said they need Melishi, but this can also mean that Melishi was the only one who understood Mishram like Dalinar understood Nergaoul.

Dalinar almost certainly had the necessary Connection to Nergaoul just based on being affected by the Thrill so much, but it's highly unlikely he understood Nale in the same way when he Connected to him. Dalinar also clearly isn't very skilled at his Bondsmithing abilities compared to Ishar - which is a little unfair, but I think it's likely Melishi was far more skilled than Dalinar was. There's also a line at the end of RoW when Dalinar Connects Kaladin to Tien - Connection must have a reason/meaning, but Dalinar's able to find something that means something to Kaladin despite not knowing really any details about it himself.

We also have no reason to believe that Melishi had any specific natural Connection to Mishram, but that's more because we don't know much about them - but we do know Mishram is a whole lot more self-aware about not just letting herself be bound than Nergaoul was.

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The situation between the Sibling and Ivory/Pattern/Syl was a bit different. The Sibling was looking at the potential candidates for a bond, while others were already bonded and wouldn't be looking at others deeply enough to notice their bonds.

Maybe, but does that translate to other spren looking for the Sibling and finding/not finding them? Re-Shephir spent a few thousand years looking and thought the Sibling was gone for good.

Somewhat unrelated to that idea, but since I'm rereading anyway - it's actually not the Sibling who notes Rlain is taken, as the Sibling still wants to try and find/bond Rlain up until Navani makes a bond. It's Timbre who notes it (basically immediately before Rlain bonds Tumi). Not sure what that means.

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But they didn't know how. They just knew the Sibling broke their bond before the Recreance, but they didn't know why they made such a decision and how they knew to do that. 

My point is more that they don't know how or why - I don't see how they'd know what, either. The honorspren does call why the Sibling broke their bond a "matter of dispute", and the Radiants in the Gem Archive clearly have no idea what's happening to them.

I think it's more possible the Sibling broke the bond, now that I see a little more, but I also think something happened to Melishi. If he'd been still alive he'd probably have been able to give more answers. But I imagine we'll find out in Wind and Truth.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Mishram's actions and binding seems to be what the Sibling themself thinks is the issue, in RoW 49. They say they lost Honor's tone when BAM was bound, and that Honor could have helped but was too mad (and soon after too dead) to do so. Not before.

Yes, the imprisonment of Mishram caused the Tower to shut down completely, but this happened after the Sibling broke her bond with Melishi and after Radiants noted that the Sibling behaved weirdly and some systems had stopped working. We don't know what caused the Tower to fail before Mishram was imprisoned and that's what I was talking about. The bond with Melishi had to be broken before Mishram was imprisoned, otherwise the Sibling would have been still able to produce her light and would have been Deadeyed by the act of breaking the bond. 

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

But I imagine we'll find out in Wind and Truth.

Agreed, there are still way too many uncertainties around the Recreance and binding of Mishram and it seems like WaT will be heavily focused on this. I'm a bit sad that Shallan didn't press Kalak to reveal the full truth about Recreance (in epigraphs he said he knows the truth) because now Kalak is out of their reach. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, the imprisonment of Mishram caused the Tower to shut down completely, but this happened after the Sibling broke her bond with Melishi and after Radiants noted that the Sibling behaved weirdly and some systems had stopped working. We don't know what caused the Tower to fail before Mishram was imprisoned and that's what I was talking about. The bond with Melishi had to be broken before Mishram was imprisoned, otherwise the Sibling would have been still able to produce her light and would have been Deadeyed by the act of breaking the bond. 

Right, and I’m saying there’s options where it was only the imprisonment of Mishram that damaged things and caused the tower to fail. The Sibling didn’t say “yeah I was having problems with my Light for a while”, they said that they had their Light and then lost it the exact same day Mishram was bound. And I think their word would be more accurate than the Honorspren’s and assuming the gem archive has to be an all-at-once thing. 

There’s also other ways that a bond can break without the Oaths breaking and leaving a deadeye. That’s why I think Melishi died, either as a consequence of binding Mishram or very soon after. If Melishi was still around, the other Radiants could just ask him what happened to the Sibling and we’d probably have a lot more answers.

Or he could have just left the tower (to go bind Mishram or to exile) and let the bond naturally fade. There’s also a WoB that the spren can originate a severing of the bond “safely”, which could have been post-Mishram but pre-Recreance and severed the bond with some damage but not as much as a deadeye.

(Also the Sibling’s a they, iirc.)

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Right, and I’m saying there’s options where it was only the imprisonment of Mishram that damaged things and caused the tower to fail. The Sibling didn’t say “yeah I was having problems with my Light for a while”, they said that they had their Light and then lost it the exact same day Mishram was bound.

What is the timeline in your opinion? I think you believe that Radiants started to record some messages when the Tower was still fully functional and Sibling was engaged, Mishram was imprisoned, the Tower started failing, the Sibling withdrew, they recorded more gems and left the Tower, then the Recreance happened? Is that correct? As I said, I believe all gems were recorded before Mishram's capture and the gemstone archive makes even more sense if you sort it by drawers - the very first records talk about the Sibling's withdrawal and their fabrials failing, the very last are about plans to put BAM in a gemstone. What records speak to you as evidently recorded post-Misham?

It didn't have to be a problem with Light, it could have been some Connection problem, Honor's changing, some deeper Spiritual problem with the Sibling, maybe an Unmade influence - we don't know what it was, but it didn't have to be just that they weren't able to produce Towerlight.

18 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

There’s also other ways that a bond can break without the Oaths breaking and leaving a deadeye.

But neither knights nor their spren knew Deadeyes would be created. Maya did expect pain, but not death. They would have no reasons to do it any other way - and if their bond was at the 5th Ideal, it can't be broken without killing the spren (Notum's words).

Melishi dying in the process of binding is possible, but based on the Thrill's binding I don't really see what could cause his death. 

31 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Or he could have just left the tower (to go bind Mishram or to exile) and let the bond naturally fade.

I don't think the bond fades and gets broken, it would be weaker, a Bondsmith would lose their powers, but it would never be broken just because Melishi/Navani left the Tower for too long. 

34 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

(Also the Sibling’s a they, iirc.)

Sorry, I know, my mistake. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What is the timeline in your opinion? I think you believe that Radiants started to record some messages when the Tower was still fully functional and Sibling was engaged, Mishram was imprisoned, the Tower started failing, the Sibling withdrew, they recorded more gems and left the Tower, then the Recreance happened? Is that correct? As I said, I believe all gems were recorded before Mishram's capture and the gemstone archive makes even more sense if you sort it by drawers - the very first records talk about the Sibling's withdrawal and their fabrials failing, the very last are about plans to put BAM in a gemstone. What records speak to you as evidently recorded post-Misham?

It didn't have to be a problem with Light, it could have been some Connection problem, Honor's changing, some deeper Spiritual problem with the Sibling, maybe an Unmade influence - we don't know what it was, but it didn't have to be just that they weren't able to produce Towerlight.

Pretty much that timeframe. Around the time of the Recreance, the Radiants were starting to have questions unrelated to the Sibling and Mishram - the fact they learned that humans weren't native to Roshar, and possibly some other things about Nahel bonds or Kalak or Old Magic or many other things. We don't have a timeframe for that, just that it was around the same time. But we also don't know how the gems were sorted - for example, the in-world Words of Radiance has 7 chapters in-between Melishi deciding to bind Mishram and the actual Recreance, seemingly filled with other Radiant activities.

My theory's that most of them are post-Mishram. All the ones that reference the Sibling withdrawing, at least. There's also the "I foresaw this" record - which is probably another nod to the Enlightening of Truthwatcher spren, but it's also a question of what was foreseen? That Mishram would be bound, or some aftereffects? I'd imagine they would have made a record like that only after seeing their prediction come true.

There's no evidence I can see of an earlier non-Light problem? The Sibling only mentions a Light problem (which is really a Tone problem) in relation to Mishram. Navani bonds the Sibling, then the Towerlight returns and all of the things that the Gem Archive said were failing - the protections, the temperature - come back to normal. 

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Melishi dying in the process of binding is possible, but based on the Thrill's binding I don't really see what could cause his death. 

A few ways. One, Nergaoul isn't sapient and couldn't really fight back - Mishram probably could in some capacity. Two, even if the binding went as expected, Melishi then managed to stuff a physical object holding a very Invested entity into the Spiritual Realm, which seems fairly dangerous. Three, it might not have a physical ramification - Melishi could have realized just how much damage he did with his actions and just not been able to take it.