How would a group of Rioters/Soothers controlling Koloss work?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

So Emotional Allomancy, when strong enough, can allow someone to take control of Hemalurgic Constructs like Koloss.

But one of the ways stated for this to happen is if a group of Soothers and/or Rioters working together can take control of Hemalurgic Constructs.

How would this work exactly? Would they all be able to give orders to the Koloss individually? Would they need to give the Koloss the same orders at the same time? 

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So Emotional Allomancy, when strong enough, can allow someone to take control of Hemalurgic Constructs like Koloss.

But one of the ways stated for this to happen is if a group of Soothers and/or Rioters working together can take control of Hemalurgic Constructs.

How would this work exactly? Would they all be able to give orders to the Koloss individually? Would they need to give the Koloss the same orders at the same time? 

We do not yet have much information on how the Koloss bond works (Different Bond theories discussed here) - but based on available data, it would seem that a group working together would exert pressure on the Cognitive Identity to "break through" into the Soul - which implies whichever of those allomancers got through would be the one to have the Koloss Bond and control of the being. 

WoB:

Spoiler

<Edited for length and related content>

Brandon Sanderson

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

Hope that helps

[+hwiles He/Him]

9 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So Emotional Allomancy, when strong enough, can allow someone to take control of Hemalurgic Constructs like Koloss.

But one of the ways stated for this to happen is if a group of Soothers and/or Rioters working together can take control of Hemalurgic Constructs.

How would this work exactly? Would they all be able to give orders to the Koloss individually? Would they need to give the Koloss the same orders at the same time? 

My general understanding is that emotional allomancy functions on hemalurgically augmented creatures by essentially invalidating and stripping away the target's identity (magically, of course...); multiple weak mistings pulling at the same string can break through just like one very strong mistborn. I suppose the real world analog would be like if a cult began feeding and housing a homeless person to build them up, then began relentlessly criticizing their every characteristic and compelling them with demands while threatening to kick them back out on the street.

It's worth noting that, since era2, a koloss who loses control, or feels themselves about to, or who otherwise has exceptional natural Determination, should be able to simply rip out a spike or two. I don't expect to see any Koloss being controlled emotionally in era3&4...I would think that just one broadsheet story about an enraged koloss violently beating to death a half-dozen rioters who were trolling it would be enough to make folks realize that, to overwhelming degree, volunteer soldiers are just safer, more reliable, and more effective than even the best emotionally manipulated super soldiers...

For narrative purposes, I would find it super peculiar if any of Autonomy's future Constructs can be controlled by anyone (except via normal non-magical means, like personal threats, desirable incentives, shared sense of purpose, love and affection, security, ect.)

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

My general understanding is that emotional allomancy functions on hemalurgically augmented creatures by essentially invalidating and stripping away the target's identity (magically, of course...)

Have you read Hero of Ages? Spoilers

Spoiler

Marsh shows that the Control has nothing to do with Identity - in fact, his strong Identity is what allowed him to keep his thoughts and throw off Ruin at the right time to remove Vin's earring. 

As the WoB above shows, Emotional Allomancy likely functions by pushing/pulling at the Cognitive Self (manipulating it) - and, when you have enough spikes, those "large pathways directing investiture directly to the spiritweb" (because Spikes pierce all three realms) allow that means of manipulation to pass through into the SR - hence the Bond, hence Control.

Very similar to the Emotional influence seen by Nightblood (sickness when opposed - suicidal bloodthirst when influencing "evil"). Also very similar to the Manipulation seen in SP3. Please see linked and referenced thread above for more detailed discussion. 

Hope that helps

[+hwiles He/Him]

42 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Have you read Hero of Ages? Spoilers

  Hide contents

Marsh shows that the Control has nothing to do with Identity - in fact, his strong Identity is what allowed him to keep his thoughts and throw off Ruin at the right time to remove Vin's earring. 

As the WoB above shows, Emotional Allomancy likely functions by pushing/pulling at the Cognitive Self (manipulating it) - and, when you have enough spikes, those "large pathways directing investiture directly to the spiritweb" (because Spikes pierce all three realms) allow that means of manipulation to pass through into the SR - hence the Bond, hence Control.

Very similar to the Emotional influence seen by Nightblood (sickness when opposed - suicidal bloodthirst when influencing "evil"). Also very similar to the Manipulation seen in SP3. Please see linked and referenced thread above for more detailed discussion. 

Hope that helps

This is a fair critique, I acknowledge that. I'm not quite sure what the right words are to describe the phenomena. I typically think of an individual's identity as their connection (little c) to themselves (their past, present, future, thoughts, beliefs, values, ect.) on a spiritual level (but it functions differently than normal Connection(s) (big C). The control mechanism is essentially a means by which to forcibly overstrain the construct's already artificially weakened sense of self to pump external influence directly into their mind and overwhelm self-awareness and intelligent action, reducing them to obeying the whims of an external force. (That's how I see it though; again, getting that to fit a real world metaphor ((which...I know it does not technically have to)) and realmatics simultaneously is a challenge)

It does help, thanks. I would dearly love to see the Cosmere evolve beyond these types of abusive and exploitative forms of command and control is the main point I would like to get across, but we shall see. Regardless, as understanding of the various systems becomes more widespread, I expect constructs (at least the one's which are technically organic) to gradually behave with greater autonomy (little a) and resistance to emotional manipulation, either by removing spikes, resorting to suicide when spike removal isn't possible, inserting new spikes which specifically guard against exploitation in a larger scale than what has been seen thus far, or by armoring themselves in aluminum if all other options fail.

Back to @JustQuestin2004 's question: my expectation is that if, for example, 3 soothers were required to breakthrough a koloss in era2, the first two would put pressure on it, and the third one would breakthrough and assume normal full control until they mentally relinquish it or travel too far away. If the bond were somehow shared evenly, they could very quickly and easily drive the beast insane with conflicting mental commands, which...would be very bad for all of them. 

Edited Thursday at 02:24 PM by hwiles

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

This is a fair critique, I acknowledge that. I'm not quite sure what the right words are to describe the phenomena. I typically think of an individual's identity as their connection (little c) to themselves (their past, present, future, thoughts, beliefs, values, ect.) on a spiritual level (but it functions differently than normal Connection(s) (big C). The control mechanism is essentially a means by which to forcibly overstrain the construct's already artificially weakened sense of self to pump external influence directly into their mind and overwhelm self-awareness and intelligent action, reducing them to obeying the whims of an external force. (That's how I see it though; again, getting that to fit a real world metaphor ((which...I know it does not technically have to)) and realmatics simultaneously is a challenge)

It does help, thanks. I would dearly love to see the Cosmere evolve beyond these types of abusive and exploitative forms of command and control is the main point I would like to get across, but we shall see. Regardless, as understanding of the various systems becomes more widespread, I expect constructs (at least the one's which are technically organic) to gradually behave with greater autonomy (little a) and resistance to emotional manipulation, either by removing spikes, resorting to suicide when spike removal isn't possible, inserting new spikes which specifically guard against exploitation in a larger scale than what has been seen thus far, or by armoring themselves in aluminum if all other options fail.

Or, you could not be a murderhobo sporting the stolen souls of people you have murdered. That's an option too. . . 

On a less sarcastic note (WoBs at the end) - I would guess that the Bond is actually affecting Connection not Identity. We already have firm evidence that while Hemalurgy can strip Identity (Constructs with spikes using traits, not Powers - e. g. Koloss - Era 1) and already has the side effect of making emotional self-control more difficult. We also know that outside influence is lessened through extreme emotion - it cannot be that Connection or Identity are replaced - more like smothered by the external overlay - which is slackened by other emotions. Since we see Marsh retain his Identity - even while controlled it seems more like the Connection between the Spiritual/Cognitive self and the Physical shell is being overridden - and in stronger forms (like Ruin), they even think the way he wants when his focus is entirely on controlling their thoughts and minds.

Notably, Vin senses Human's internal thoughts through the Control - but can only influence his physical actions. 

I doubt removing a spike in-scene would help mitigate somebody taking control - placing the spike creates the extra cracks that facilitate this effect, but that crack does not go away with the removal of the spike. You just have an empty hole - which may even make Control easier rather than harder. 

Spoiler

Annotation to HoA Ch 37:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Human's Origin

Human is a very special koloss. He's quite a bit older than most, his creation running all the way back to before the Lord Ruler's death. He was originally the leader of a rebellion out in the southeast—the same area where Clubs spent his youth fighting. Human, then known as Vershad, was one of the more successful leaders of the wasted men—those who live out in the desert outside the borders of the Final Empire, but come in to raid and steal supplies from outlying villages.

Charismatic and intelligent, he managed to keep his band alive even once the Lord Ruler turned his attention on them. Rather than ravaging villages, Vershad would convert them—quietly, carefully—to his side and get them to give him supplies. In turn, he would "raid" them and destroy the lords' mansions, causing chaos and letting the people get a sideways revenge against their masters. In the chaos, it would be assumed that the raiders got away with the skaa food, and it would be replenished.

The Lord Ruler tired of such games and eventually sent his koloss against Vershad and his men. As clever as they were, they weren't able to stand against a well-laid betrayal and ambush set by an Inquisitor—one who controlled a troop of koloss. The raiders were slaughtered, and Vershad himself was turned into a koloss for his crimes.

He retained enough of his determination and his intelligence, however, to make a remarkably clever koloss. (There is some variety to koloss, based on who they were before the transformation.)

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 10, 2009)

M:SH 6-7:

Quote

Below, Marsh struggled with—then finally slaughtered—the hapless Goradel. Kelsier winced as his brother didn’t just murder, but reveled in the death, driven to madness by Ruin’s taint. Strangely, Ruin worked to hold him back. As if in the moment, he’d lost control of Marsh.

I know there is a WoB about how hemalurgic contructs like Koloss and Inquisitors fall into Bloodlust when killing (due to the effect of Ruin on the Spiritweb), but I'm having trouble finding it at the moment.

Annotations to HoA Ch 70:

Quote

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It’s in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That’s because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn’t happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

Annotations to HoA Ch 79:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

HoA Ch 8:

Quote

Even now, Vin could feel her koloss tugging at her, trying to break free. It didn’t like being controlled—it wanted to attack her. It could not, fortunately; she controlled it, and would continue to do so whether awake or asleep, burning metals or not, unless someone stole the beast from her.

Even linked as they were, there was so much Vin didn’t understand about the creatures. She looked up, and found the koloss staring at her with its bloodred eyes.

 

Hope that helps

 

Edited Thursday at 03:26 PM by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I doubt removing a spike in-scene would help mitigate somebody taking control - placing the spike creates the extra cracks that facilitate this effect, but that crack does not go away with the removal of the spike. You just have an empty hole - which may even make Control easier rather than harder. 

I do not believe this to be the case: Spook immediately became free from Ruin's manipulation after removing his spike in HoA.

Kandra also become free from control when only bearing one of their spikes, though admittedly only Bleeder has been seen to do this and she had Trellium backing her up too.

I think the cracks the spike makes are inherently part of the spike's function- the spikes acts as an entrance for its Investiture and the host's Spiritweb, so removing it removes that entrance as well.

Quote

We already have firm evidence that while Hemalurgy can strip Identity (Constructs with spikes using traits, not Powers - e. g. Koloss - Era 1) and already has the side effect of making emotional self-control more difficult.

Do we know that Identity loss happens to Koloss? It could, but I don't believe we have enough evidence at this point to say that confidently.

Honestly, I don't feel like we know hardly anything about Identity still, other than the fact that it keys Investiture to you, can affect your accent when using Connection translation, and can be tangentially related to your appearance. 

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

I do not believe this to be the case: Spook immediately became free from Ruin's manipulation after removing his spike in HoA.

Spook only had 1 spike, and was not under control at all - he was being manipulated and shown phantasms that were not real;  which he could not longer perceive with the spike removed (same with the Citizen). That's very different than being Controlled by a Bond that has been formed.

The cracks remain, because we see that Vin feels TLR's soothing more strongly due to her Spike (when Kelsier claims it cannot be sensed through the Coppercloud, but she still does - Copper or not) - and that did not change when her Earring was removed. 

18 minutes ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Do we know that Identity loss happens to Koloss? It could, but I don't believe we have enough evidence at this point to say that confidently.

Did you not read the Annotation WoB about who Human was before being changed? The weakened and reused spikes allowed some E1Koloss some level of higher thinking they did not normally have, but their Identity was gone (likely supressed?) until killed when their normal Cognitive Identity (free of the physical shell) reasserted in Shadesmar before going to the Beyond (as seen in Secret History). 

20 minutes ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Kandra also become free from control when only bearing one of their spikes, though admittedly only Bleeder has been seen to do this and she had Trellium backing her up too.

Not really - E1Kandra had to remove both spikes to prevent Ruin's Control. Bleeder was something different, allowing her to "function" with a Single Trellium spike (the essence of Autonomy likely prevented control). 

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Did you not read the Annotation WoB about who Human was before being changed? The weakened and reused spikes allowed some E1Koloss some level of higher thinking they did not normally have, but their Identity was gone (likely supressed?) until killed when their normal Cognitive Identity (free of the physical shell) reasserted in Shadesmar before going to the Beyond (as seen in Secret History). 

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e7707

The Hero of Ages Annotations - Chapter 37-2

#109Nov. 10, 2009 

Brandon Sanderson

Human's Origin

Human is a very special koloss. He's quite a bit older than most, his creation running all the way back to before the Lord Ruler's death. He was originally the leader of a rebellion out in the southeast—the same area where Clubs spent his youth fighting. Human, then known as Vershad, was one of the more successful leaders of the wasted men—those who live out in the desert outside the borders of the Final Empire, but come in to raid and steal supplies from outlying villages.

Charismatic and intelligent, he managed to keep his band alive even once the Lord Ruler turned his attention on them. Rather than ravaging villages, Vershad would convert them—quietly, carefully—to his side and get them to give him supplies. In turn, he would "raid" them and destroy the lords' mansions, causing chaos and letting the people get a sideways revenge against their masters. In the chaos, it would be assumed that the raiders got away with the skaa food, and it would be replenished.

The Lord Ruler tired of such games and eventually sent his koloss against Vershad and his men. As clever as they were, they weren't able to stand against a well-laid betrayal and ambush set by an Inquisitor—one who controlled a troop of koloss. The raiders were slaughtered, and Vershad himself was turned into a koloss for his crimes.

He retained enough of his determination and his intelligence, however, to make a remarkably clever koloss. (There is some variety to koloss, based on who they were before the transformation.)

Though I suppose if your appearance in the Cognitive Realm is based on Identity then this makes sense. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127-salt-lake-city-comiccon-2017/#e5187

Questioner

I've got a Mistborn question for you. So, Identity? Can you store, like-- is your physical appearance part of your Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

It is to some people. To most people, it's a part of it, yes.... I don't know the answer-- don't take that as "You can store that." and things like that. It's involved. There are certain things you can do. But it's not as simple as it might have sounded, what I just implied.

Questioner

So, does that apply to your Identity, if you're in the Cognitive Realm? Or the Physical Realm? Can you store that?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason you look like you do in the Cognitive Realm is because it's Identity, things like that. I'm not gonna talk about specifically how storing that works really. Although there is the idea that your soul is the key to Investiture and stuff like that.

I'm usually just hesitant to jump into saying "this is what this attribute does" as it has large ramifications and there are plenty of alternatives.

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Spook only had 1 spike, and was not under control at all - he was being manipulated and shown phantasms that were not real;  which he could not longer perceive with the spike removed (same with the Citizen). That's very different than being Controlled by a Bond that has been formed.

Hmm, could be.

Maybe if the bond was already in place you don't need the cracks still?

That could be awesome actually, as you could form a web of Connections between people by temporarily spiking them (and they use Emotional Allomancy on each other), then they remove the spikes afterwards and become immune to outside control while maintaining the previously established bonds.

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The cracks remain, because we see that Vin feels TLR's soothing more strongly due to her Spike (when Kelsier claims it cannot be sensed through the Coppercloud, but she still does - Copper or not) - and that did not change when her Earring was removed. 

I thought she just kept the earring pretty much all of the time and felt the extra pressure from that. 

The only time it was gone was when TLR ripped it out at the end, right? (It's been a while since I read TFE)

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Not really - E1Kandra had to remove both spikes to prevent Ruin's Control. Bleeder was something different, allowing her to "function" with a Single Trellium spike (the essence of Autonomy likely prevented control). 

That's a fair point, but from Sazed's remarks in SoS it didn't seem like he thought one spike would be enough for control.

He isn't perfectly knowledgeable though, and she did have Trellium, so it's not really that useful.

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Sazed's remarks in SoS it didn't seem like he thought one spike would be enough for control.

Concur, I don't think 1 spike is enough to establish control, but I also doubt that removing only 1 spike will break Control that has already been established - especially in Constructs like Koloss with 4 (or more) spikes to start with. And, if you are already under control - how would you get the chance to remove the spike anyway (as seen by Marsh). 

As I recall, Bleeder was briefly spikeless each time she changed the Spike (pulling it out and falling onto the new one), which is presumably how she avoided Harmony's control the first time (taking out both normal Blessing spikes to fall onto the Trellium Spike).

20 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Do you mean this one?

Though I suppose if your appearance in the Cognitive Realm is based on Identity then this makes sense.

Yes, those are what I meant - Human does not recall having been Vershad and does not seemto have any sense of self from before being Spiked (except that he "is human"). But the Obligator Shade that Kelsier talks to in SH immediately recalls how and why he was spiked (with as much Noble snootiness as possible) before moving Beyond. However, Kar and Marsh both seem to have full recollection of their pre-Inquisitor lives - so it seems a side-effect of the massive changes wrought when spiking with Human attributes, rather than Manifestations of Investiture. 

Edited Thursday at 06:28 PM by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Yes, those are what I meant - Human does not recall having been Vershad and does not seemto have any sense of self from before being Spiked (except that he "is human"). But the Obligator Shade that Kelsier talks to in SH immediately recalls how and why he was spiked (with as much Noble snootiness as possible) before moving Beyond. However, Kar and Marsh both seem to have full recollection of their pre-Inquisitor lives - so it seems a side-effect of the massive changes wrought when spiking with Human attributes, rather than Manifestations of Investiture. 

Good point. 

I will say though, could this just be due to mental limitations of Koloss biology, or because the changes wrought from severe Spiritweb damage can cause memory loss?

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

As seen with Charred and how they lose their personality and can be controlled more easily due to the damage caused from their transformation. 

Not saying Identity alteration can't be what causes it, only that there may be other noteworthy possibilities. 

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Not saying Identity alteration can't be what causes it, only that there may be other noteworthy possibilities. 

Or the Chimerae in Shadows of Self