Chapters 16, 17 & 18

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I would definitely agree that Cultivation is playing a big game that far exceeds what we currently know. However, I think he chapters show she was very surprised on Taravangian's attitudes once he became Vessel. He was talking about murdering other Shards, so it is in her best interest for him to be defeated.

No. I am sorry, but that is not the case. It is in Cultivation's interest to have Odium splintered. Defeating him in the contest does not do that. On the contrary, it would leave her alone with him and give him a good reason for being angry at her for aiding Dalinar.

[listerfeend]

2 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Guys it’s over. Shallan is Chana (aka Radiant). If Chana ever was Shallan’s mom, then some sort of switcheroo took place. 

I'm sorry, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion. For Chana to be Shallan would be SO freaking wild as to make no sense. She has an entire family that would remember her as an infant. So you're speculating that a Herald became an infant? Or you're thinking that somewhere along the line, Herald Chana decided to become a child? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Chana being her mom still makes the most sense in my head. I can't imagine that Pattern wouldn't notice that he is bonded to a Herald. Or Kalak, for that matter. Especially not Kalak. I'm still very much convinced that Radiant and Veil are different outcomes of Shallan, like you would see while burning Malatium. Or maybe Veil is, and Radiant is a connection to the "ideal" of her mother Chana, but I still can't see Radian AS Chana, that doesn't really track for me...
 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

I think people are underestimating the power the given loophole. Taking Thaylen City, Azir and the Shattered plains would cripple humanity's ability to fight back. Most people would be stuck in Urithiru or some small country. The coalition would be over and after 1000 years, Taravangian would come back and easily take the rest.

[Ytsken]

4 hours ago, Bnaya said:

Maybe its Isom. He was after Adolin

Edit: maybe that is the reason he is not talking

This is the transgender king mentioned in WoR and Dawnshard. His son, also present in this scene, is actually a very shrewd tradesman and negotiator who understands multiple languages. Keeping quiet is an excellent way of learning what is going on and determining what actions they will take and whether they could, or would, promise assistance. It is in fact behaviour that is typical for these two men in both scenes they appeared in earlier.

4 hours ago, Bnaya said:

 

4 hours ago, Bnaya said:

Edited Monday at 08:44 PM by Ytsken

[GudThymes he/him]

Why are we assuming that Hoid dropped the ball so fully. He missed a loophole but does that matter to his goals?

Per this contract Odium stays bound to the system no matter what. In my reading it felt like he was more pissed that odium got the better of him and that Rayse was dead rather than the contract.

One of the first time Hoid and Dalinar talk Hoid says to not trust him and that he will watch all of Roshar burn if that means he gets what he wants.

[Erklitt]

5 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

For Chana to be Shallan would be SO freaking wild as to make no sense.

This, and something else:

@coolsnow7 founded their argument on

Quote

“I found a few pieces of myself,” she said, “that I’d lost.”

Which fits perfectly for Shallan without any strange shenanigans. After killing her mother and her first spren, Shallan lost a lot of memories and her personality was warped by the trauma. She's healed from some of that. In what way do those words mean she's really someone else? And what would be the pieces Chana is supposed to have lost and now found again?

[Ytsken]

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

 

This is so a trap for Shallan set up by the Ghostbloods, They already outmaneuvered her in Lasting Integrity, and they just so happen to have a "rookie"  that Wit was able to notice, and that led them all the way to Narak?  

 

Am I the only one thinking this ‘rookie’ Ghostblood is actually Iyatil without her mask? The way that entire scene was written pretty much screamed this at me.

Additionally, either Gaz is going to get his Shard or he will end up betraying Shallan at the upcoming confrontation.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ytsken said:

Am I the only one thinking this ‘rookie’ Ghostblood is actually Iyatil without her mask? The way that entire scene was written pretty much screamed this at me.

That raises an issue. What is the transit time between Scadrial and Urithiru? I would say months. Hoid knows that. How can they assume that the Ghostbloods are getting support they have requested due to recent events?

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

4 minutes ago, Ytsken said:

Am I the only one thinking this ‘rookie’ Ghostblood is actually Iyatil without her mask? The way that entire scene was written pretty much screamed this at me.

Additionally, either Gaz is going to get his Shard or he will end up betraying Shallan at the upcoming confrontation.

I am just glad we are getting more of Shallan's squires, and their progress! 

[Ninth of the Night]

I'm thinking Shob is a Ghostblood.

Mraize would definitely want a spy among Shallan's Lightweavers. And I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't already have one implanted. Sure, there was already a subplot about this in RoW but it could still be unresolved... Hmm.

[coolsnow7]

35 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I'm sorry, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion. For Chana to be Shallan would be SO freaking wild as to make no sense. She has an entire family that would remember her as an infant. So you're speculating that a Herald became an infant? Or you're thinking that somewhere along the line, Herald Chana decided to become a child? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Chana being her mom still makes the most sense in my head. I can't imagine that Pattern wouldn't notice that he is bonded to a Herald. Or Kalak, for that matter. Especially not Kalak. I'm still very much convinced that Radiant and Veil are different outcomes of Shallan, like you would see while burning Malatium. Or maybe Veil is, and Radiant is a connection to the "ideal" of her mother Chana, but I still can't see Radian AS Chana, that doesn't really track for me...
 

The theories around Chana literally being Shallan have floated around, all these questions have been answered.

22 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

@coolsnow7 founded their argument on

That is incorrect - this is just confirmation. The arguments themselves are found across a bunch of other threads, for example this one.

 

Edited Monday at 09:12 PM by coolsnow7

[Nesh he/him]

On a smaller note, Roshar has Morse Code now, at least that was what jumped to my mind when they were using the Spanreed lights to send messages.

[Isilel]

22 minutes ago, Ytsken said:

Am I the only one thinking this ‘rookie’ Ghostblood is actually Iyatil without her mask!

 

Iyatil's mask is grown into her face, since she is a descendant of people who never remove them.... of course if she has Gold Feruchemy that wouldn't be a problem and actually provide a wonderful disguise when needed.

It never made sense to me that someone with such outlandish appearance could have become a successful out-world agent. The 2 new reinforcements wear normal SoScad masks, which can be discarded at will, as far as I understand.

 

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What is the transit time between Scadrial and Urithiru? 

Yea, there is no way that they could have come to Roshar in response to Shallan's challenge. They must have been scattered on the planet already and just called in.

[Master Silver]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

Yes, particularly since loophole or no, not freezing the borders was dumb and guaranteed to result in unnecessary bloodshed. IMHO not explicitly including the spren of Honor and Cultivation in the deal was another mistake that will come back to bite them. I am disappointed in Dalinar and particularly in Hoid for missing this.

Hoid generally seems to be dropping  balls right and left - he didn't even suspect Felt?! He didn't know that Seons can be duplicitous? He didn't explain Scadrian and other cosmeric powers that the Ghostbloods might have to Shallan,  when he encouraged her to throw down the gauntlet?! Not only are Lightweavers unlikely to surprise their opponents, but they are probably in a very real danger.

Is Shallan on the verge of remembering Mraize from her childhood?

I am pretty sure that one of the unnamed Highprinces at the conference is Hatham and his clearly-a-worldhopper and probably a Ghostblood ardent from  WoK is with him.

What is Colot's deal? Did he fail to become a Windrunner squire? Did he replace Felt as a Ghostblood spy assigned to Dalinar?

Oh, and I thought that Sanderson previously said that the first arc of SA would be about the Radiants, while the second one would tell us about the Heralds. I am surprised that Dalinar will have to dive into the latter so soon...

Skybreakers are totally attacking Urithiru during the remaining days, right? Sibling saying how safe it was in the earlier chapters practically sealed the deal. I hope that they can be talked down with legal arguments, since the area seems to have been uninhabited before arrival of humans.

It should be remembered that Hoid although he does care, is willing to literally let the world burn to keep Odium bound. Probably more so now, that the Shard holders is actually more capable and thus more dangerous. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Honestly, the more I think about Cultivation and how frustrating her actions, or inactions, have been I now am genuinely of the opinion that Cultivation, or rather her Shard, cannot actually Splinter another Shard.

She had Rayse killed and replaced with Taravangian, which is in line with her intent, Odium has been cultivated to be better, even if it's for the worst. But she could have tried to kill the nascent Vessel before he gained full control and understanding over his powers but she didn't even try. Because she can't, she can only help things grow in the long term, she can't just cut things down without the act being to help it grow. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Finally, a confirmation that Lightweavers receive their Shardblades at 3rd Ideal, just as all other orders. This means that all instances of Shallan summoning the Shardblade in WoR was her summoning Testament, not Pattern, including opening the Oathgate.

She had already sworn three Ideals by then.

[Palindrome]

7 hours ago, The Stick said:

I was really disappointed by this loophole, if you can call it that. I mean, the Alethi legal code shouldn't even apply to the rest of Roshar, especially considering the Dalinar is king of Urithiru, not Alethkar. To me, this whole thing is really shaky and doesn't make much sense. However, I believe that Frost's Sister who I now really want to see in SP5 was wrong. Taravangian is playing a much bigger game. Plus, from a purely logical standpoint, this cannot be The loophole. The Azimir army was sent before any of this began, and I don't see how the Skybreakers force was mobilized in just a day. I think that was just Rayse being aggressive, not the loophole, since the Azimir army launched before the Contract. 

Also, Cultivation is such an idiot. All she does is a big lore dump, and doesn't decide to tell Dalinar that Taravangian of all people is the Vessel.

I actually think the biggest loophole is the “unharmed” part. If Odium sends a champion that is harmed before he reaches the fight then Dalinar’s side has broken the agreement.

[agrabes]

7 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I will be quite shocked if this is the only loophole. In fact my hunch right now is that this is a distraction (why would it be so important to Taravangian to conquer all of Roshar, as opposed to just most of it? How does that get him freed from the system?)

Taravangian said that he would arrange things so that he would be satisfied no matter the outcome. And we also know that what Odium rushed to erase from Hoid’s memory was him asking who Hoid would choose as champion. Let’s be patient - we’re not even 20% done with the book, and I’m certain Taravangian holding a Shard has far more tricks up his sleeve.

I'm not sure on Taravangian - I think he's said both before and after ascension that his goal is to save Roshar.  And the idea of him conquering it in order to save it also tracks both before and after.  So I'm not sure that he has bigger plans - I don't think he's planning to run off into the Cosmere and start conquering immediately.  But, I do think he knows some things we as readers don't know about the overall state of the Cosmere.  What those are, I'm not sure, but I get the sense he also feels threatened.

I do agree though, I think just in terms of this battle/contest specifically he definitely has more tricks up his sleeve.  The Alethi law thing is weird and doesn't really make complete sense like others have pointed out.  Even taking these capital cities on its own is huge for Team Odium, without the weird technicalities of taking the city meaning taking the whole kingdom.  Also the way it's couched in Taravangian being able to break the spirit of the agreement while Rayse couldn't doesn't feel right to me.  It seems to be the nature of Shards that they can't go against their nature and I feel like going from "completely impossible to break the spirit of the deal" to "completely ignores the spirit of the deal" is a bridge too far.  I think (I hope?) we'll find out this is an incorrect interpretation by "Frost's Sister" and Hoid.

[coolsnow7]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think he's said both before and after ascension that his goal is to save Roshar.

He’s been uh pretty explicit that his goal is to dominate the Cosmere as its sole god. whether or not that includes saving Roshar is tbd I suppose. Even if it does, I don’t think he’s settling for anything less than freedom.

[agrabes]

10 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

He’s been uh pretty explicit that his goal is to dominate the Cosmere as its sole god. whether or not that includes saving Roshar is tbd I suppose. Even if it does, I don’t think he’s settling for anything less than freedom.

I wouldn't say that - his goal is to become the sole god of the Cosmere but not necessarily dominate it.  Well - not in the conquer by force method anyway.  I think that if Taravangian himself keeps control he would eliminate and likely absorb the other Gods/shards with minimal collateral damage and then enforce some type of lasting peace.  He says it in the Interlude - he wants to create a Cosmere where only the minimum amount of free will is allowed so he can prevent people from being exploited or hurt, etc.  So, I guess that is domination in a sense.  But I think it's a significantly different path from Rayse who just wanted to kill everyone and shatter all the other shards so he could remain pure and uninfluenced by the other shards.  Taravangian has always been one of the most interesting characters in the series so I hope he sticks around and continues to be a complex and interesting Odium.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Why are we assuming that Hoid dropped the ball so fully. He missed a loophole but does that matter to his goals?

Per this contract Odium stays bound to the system no matter what. In my reading it felt like he was more pissed that odium got the better of him and that Rayse was dead rather than the contract.

One of the first time Hoid and Dalinar talk Hoid says to not trust him and that he will watch all of Roshar burn if that means he gets what he wants.

You are raising a point. We are assuming that Hoid failed to recognize that a Seon could be a double agent. Did he?

Let me remind you of his prime interest: He wants Odium trapped.
Let me also remind you of Kelsier's prime interest: Scadrial has to be protected. Hence Odium better be trapped.

You connect the dots.

[Sedside she/her]

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

She had already sworn three Ideals by then.

Had she? She had sworn the truth about her mother after the discovery of Urithiru, but if she had sworn three before, this one would be the Fourth, and she either would have her Plate in OB and RoW, or she is of the Fifth already now in case Lightweavers get their Plate at the Fifth Ideal.

[Isilel]

Another thing - Renarin should be in position to deduce that Taravangian is the new Odium. He provided the enlightened spren to attract Rodium's attention and his note suggested that he had some vague idea about what T was attempting.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Another thing - Renarin should be in position to deduce that Taravangian is the new Odium. He provided the enlightened spren to attract Rodium's attention and his note suggested that he had some vague idea about what T was attempting.

Renarin, his spren and Szeth's spren might be able to figure it out. I say the spren because in WoR Syl notices that Odium is paying close attention right before Szeth attacks Dalinar for the first time. 

Quote

"He's coming."

"Who? The storm?"  

"The one who hates," she whispered. "The darkness inside. Kaladin, he's watching. Something's going to happen. Something bad."

WoR Ch. 32 The One Who Hates

If Syl can notice Odium is just watching closely then Szeth's spren should notice Rayse visiting Taravangian. Not like they saw the interaction, but they should be able to sense that Odium was paying close attention. 

This may not be how our heroes figure it out, but some of the nearby spren should have noticed Odium paying attention to that area. Especially when their radiant is in the same room with what Odium is angry at. 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Honestly, the more I think about Cultivation and how frustrating her actions, or inactions, have been I now am genuinely of the opinion that Cultivation, or rather her Shard, cannot actually Splinter another Shard.

She had Rayse killed and replaced with Taravangian, which is in line with her intent, Odium has been cultivated to be better, even if it's for the worst. But she could have tried to kill the nascent Vessel before he gained full control and understanding over his powers but she didn't even try. Because she can't, she can only help things grow in the long term, she can't just cut things down without the act being to help it grow. 

I don't agree. You have to kill off weeds to cultivate your plants. If a plant grows in a place it shouldn't, you can take small saplings of it and plant them in a more suitable space, while also destroying that plant.

Cultivation would Splinter Odium and cultivate his Splinters afterwards, but she probably can't because it's very dangerous to go 1 on 1 with another Shard, Odium might have some advantage over her, her power might be already busy doing other things, or she's simply too afraid of an direct confrontation. She was hoping Taravangian would be a better Vessel, this plan failed, so maybe now it's time for pesticides (Dalinar).

 

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

She had already sworn three Ideals by then.

I disagree. I still think "I'm terrified" from WoK was said to Testament, it was her voice Shallan heard and because she tried to summon Testament as a Shardblade, she was able to Soulcast (WoB). This means that "I killed my mother" said at the end of WoR was her 3rd Ideal and ever since then she used Pattern as a Shardblade. 

Yes, she repeated this truth in WaT ch 9, which I still think she said to Testament. This strengthened their bond and allowed her to fully use substantiation. Her platespren were hanging around her from the very first chapter of WaT, before she reswore this Truth - in ch 5 she noticed a few unusual Creationspren which were changing shapes, unlike any other Creationspren in Shadesmar.