Lightflame he/him Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hey, remember when Kaladin found Hoid, who told him a story? It was a few months ago when I read the book, but I think the story went like this: Some adventurers sailed to an island, and the natives welcomed them. At first, the island seemed idyllic. However, whenever someone made a mistake they were killed because supposedly, "The emperor did not tolerate failure." Eventually, the adventurers got tired of the Emperor, so they went to his giant tower. However, he was dead the whole time, so a huge war broke out on the island. They escaped and took a girl with them. The girl explained that the fighting happened because "Since the Emperor had been dead all along, our crimes are our own." The story provided a nice metaphor for the situation Kaladin was in (apparently?) but knowing Brandon, it's much more important than it seems. Maybe it actually happened, and Hoid had something to do with it? What if the natives were parshendi (or parshmen, because I forget which is which)? Or maybe it provides a metaphor for the whole series? What if Odium is dead, and someone else is pulling the strings? Then again, I'm not as good at crazy theories as everyone else seems to be. Still, there has to be more to Hoid's story than he's letting on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) I think you are right about the story having some significance but I most certainly do not think Odium is dead...... If he were "dead" as in splintered, then the everstorm would not be approaching, the letter writer should not be worried and Tanavast/cultivation would most certainley have seen it. But if he were "dead" as in Ati/Leras dead, then it would not matter, the shards intent would corrupt the new holder just the same. Edited July 31, 2012 by rags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAhlstrom he/him Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Look at the title of chapter 75. I think there has been a thread on this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 "In the Top Room"? This is going to be one of those "Honor is Dead" scenarios where we're missing something obvious and crucial, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think the title references Derethil going to the top room of the tower and realizing the emperor is dead. It's Dalinar 'in the top room' discovering Honor is dead in that vision. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 he/him Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 So yeah, it is a metaphor for the Alethi people. What will happen if Dalinar tells everyone that the Almighty is dead? And what if people believe him? It's a little bit like Jasnah says. You want people to do the right thing because it's right, not because you face punishment in the next life if you don't. If the Almighty's dead, than how will people react? And are you Atheist if you believe there was a God, and he's just dead? Apparently Jasnah and Dalinar are going to have that conversation in the next book. I'm really interested in it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Elwynn, I cannot tell you just how much I appreciate that insight. I wonder if this connects to Kaladin's insight about responsibility. Since Honor is dead, could he be considered Honor's representative? One of the folks who has inherited his power, and therefore needs to start using it rather than trying to pass responsibility on to the Almighty? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 @zas: Yeah, I remember reading that somewhere, BS talking about that conversation in the next book. I think that will be a great discussion, and an even better theme. @happyman: I hadn’t really thought of it applying to Kaladin’s responsibility that way. Very possible it could be a wake-up sign for him to stop blaming the Almighty for cursing him. Though I’d say that was partly underway for him anyhow. And Dalinar seems much more like a rep for the Almighty than Kaladin. It could definitely be an Alethi metaphor for what’s coming. Dalinar is trying to unite the Highprinces, Taravangian doesn’t want that…but does want a different kind of stability. And I can only see a revelation like this causing outright dissension and maybe war between Vorin nations, disrupting both of their plans. I think one of the key questions for Dalinar will be whether to tell the Vorin population or not. Likely they wouldn’t believe him anyways, certainly not at first. However, because I enjoy more tangible revelations that are already available to us… Could it maybe relate to one of the reasons the Radiants abandoned their places after being used by the people they served, and subsequently discovering Honor is gone. Great quote for that? Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone? That epigraph also happens to come at the beginning of Chapter 2: Honor is Dead. Weak, I know. But if they were beginning to twist the concepts of Honor to suit some of the deeds they were doing in absence of Desolations…followed by a complete lack of retribution (i.e. loss of power, guidance from the Almighty), they might have viewed it as okay/still honorable (the way Szeth speaks of being honorable) and it could have begun their downward spiral into becoming the ‘corrupted’ Radiants everyone remembers them as. Then…bam! They learn the Almighty is dead and are so ashamed of what they became they throw down their weapons. Actually, I like that. Could Hoid have been speaking about the Recreance? Warning Kaladin about the path he was on? The Radiants fighting in man-made wars, killing to preserve some perverted form of honor when they viewed other nations as stepping out of line/making dishonorable choices? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeshdan he/him Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 However, because I enjoy more tangible revelations that are already available to us… Could it maybe relate to one of the reasons the Radiants abandoned their places after being used by the people they served, and subsequently discovering Honor is gone. Great quote for that? That epigraph also happens to come at the beginning of Chapter 2: Honor is Dead. Weak, I know. But if they were beginning to twist the concepts of Honor to suit some of the deeds they were doing in absence of Desolations…followed by a complete lack of retribution (i.e. loss of power, guidance from the Almighty), they might have viewed it as okay/still honorable (the way Szeth speaks of being honorable) and it could have begun their downward spiral into becoming the ‘corrupted’ Radiants everyone remembers them as. Then…bam! They learn the Almighty is dead and are so ashamed of what they became they throw down their weapons. Actually, I like that. Could Hoid have been speaking about the Recreance? Warning Kaladin about the path he was on? The Radiants fighting in man-made wars, killing to preserve some perverted form of honor when they viewed other nations as stepping out of line/making dishonorable choices? Honor "filmed" the Recreance, so he was around then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwynn Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Honor "filmed" the Recreance, so he was around then. You’re probably right, but I actually don’t think that’s the case. I’ve always thought that vision is one of the ‘fears’ visions of the Almighty, for several reasons. But it was so close to him dying he was able to foresee it with quite a bit of accuracy. The wording when he speaks…Buuuut now I’m hijacking the thread, maybe I’ll make a new thread about why I think that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Elwynn, that was brilliant. I think you hit the nail on the head with the visions. Also I just realized we have 2 discussions of this story going on currently, so I accidentally made some of the same points there as were made in here. My bad. The other topic is shorter, so I may close it or move it over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAhlstrom he/him Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Have I really never mentioned chapter 75's title before? I guess I got tired of waiting for someone else to notice it. Sorry, it's one of those things that when I realized its significance, I was jumping up and down. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirigible Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I imagine the ardents will not be pleased when they realize that the Almighty is dead. Maybe the servants of the emperor in Hoid's story were the ardents (who have been supporting a very warlike world for a very long time, in the name of the Almighty) if this were to be a metaphor for what's to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 @Elwynn: If we are right that Dalinar, Kaladin and others are going to be Knights Radiant of some sort or other, they will all need to represent the Almighty and start taking responsibility. I mean, the Almighty was a shard. That's a lot of power. If it's been spread around, the holders all need to pull together to make anything useful. The reason I say this is because Hoid told Kaladin the story for a reason. Kaladin then came to his own conclusions. I would be very disappointed and surprised if Hoid told the wrong person the story at the wrong time, or if his conclusions weren't relevant. Certainly he didn't get the full impact, though. As Peter said, it's the kind of insight that makes you go "Oh, duh. Wow. How did I miss that?" On the other hand, I think he came to the right conclusion at that time and place, and it definitely relates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Thats an amazing theory, Elwyn! I completely agree with you, but if you remember the story of Derethil, you will notice that the people feared the Emperor. Our emperor will not suffer failure Its almost as if they are scared of some terrible punishment. That does not seem to be an appropriate representation of Honor. But that could be because its just a story, a metaphor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Do you think the Ardentia already knows about Honor being dead? They seem to know something about Dalinar, or be interested in him for some reason... and it seems to be a somewhat favorable one, given that one ardent's comments to him during the feast. I find it hard to believe in the thousands (?) of years since Honor's death, Dalinar is the only one to experience these visions. IF he isn't, then someone else knew at somepoint that Honor is dead, and I can't imagine they kept it quiet. If they spoke up at all, then the ardents probably know about the visions, the symptoms... and might be either preparing to help Dalinar out of fear of the Everstorm, or stop him so that their power isn't threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Some people think that the ardents who started the Hierocracy had experienced these visions. It's a rather excellent theory. I'd go with the Ghostbloods being involved with that ardent's comment though. From Kabsal, who appears to be a real ardent, it's entirely possible that they are some faction within the ardentia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Some people think that the ardents who started the Hierocracy had experienced these visions. It's a rather excellent theory. I'd go with the Ghostbloods being involved with that ardent's comment though. From Kabsal, who appears to be a real ardent, it's entirely possible that they are some faction within the ardentia. So the question is why people who know Honor is dead would ALSO want Jasnah dead, I suppose... but that's another thread I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj26792 he/him Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Because its easier to keep everyone believing than most people believing, Jasnah by being succesful and atheist makes atheism ok, thats worse than thinking God is dead for a religious order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 Heh. Jasnah's relationship with the ardentia and the Almighty would be quite complicated. Jasnah is in the position of being both right and wrong, but for all the wrong reasons. It'll be interesting to see how she interprets the future. I don't see Brandon writing a Flat Earth Atheist, but there are lots of ways a reasonable person could come to terms with the metaphysics in the Cosmere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 Thats an amazing theory, Elwyn! I completely agree with you, but if you remember the story of Derethil, you will notice that the people feared the Emperor. Its almost as if they are scared of some terrible punishment. That does not seem to be an appropriate representation of Honor. But that could be because its just a story, a metaphor.... I think the punishment they are scared of is not being worthy to fight for the heralds in order to reclaim the tranquiline halls. Their whole culture is built around the idea that they must maximize their competence in any chosen field in order to be worthy to join the herald's fight. Being a great warrior is prized above nearly all else and the killings they commit in war whether justified or not (as in meaningless border disputes etc), are all simply an effort to prove themselves worthy to join the heralds. How will they react when they discover that the Heralds lost, broke the oathpact and are not actually fighting the voidbringers in the tranquiline halls? How will they react when they discover that honor is dead, vorinism (in its current form at least) is false and that they are a corrupted shadow of the people their ancestors were? Somehow I think it won't be pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted August 3, 2012 Report Share Posted August 3, 2012 So that means Hoid knows Honor is dead in TWoK, but at the time he wrote the letter he didn't include that--seems strange. Why wouldn't he have included it to strengthen his argument? Maybe the death of Honor was a lot more recent than we have theorized? Maybe Hoid's war has already begun and Honor was the first big casualty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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