Shallan's Powers

[Truthless he/him]

Here's the quote, with important context:

And beyond a few indirect references, that's about all we know about what happened that fateful night her father died. The text suggests, but doesn't state, that she got the sword from her father. It's implied (it is the fruit of her greatest sin) but it is not outright stated.

To me, the ambiguity of it all suggest strongly that Shallan didn't actually kill her father. I think it's more that she feels directly responsible for it - a personal truth, but not, strictly speaking, true. Either way, of course, she has his Shardblade.

[Tamzin Ashevai she/her]

I sincerely believe that Shallan had/has the power to wield a Shardblade and killed her own father in using it. I believe this is from where her haunted memory comes. That she can Soulcast without a Soulcaster reinforces my belief.

The ten heartbeats are there; I just can't find them in the novel despite my extensive notes and post-its! Grr! Nevertheless, I'll be re-reading this novel long before it's sequel is released.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

I sincerely believe that Shallan had/has the power to wield a Shardblade and killed her own father in using it. I believe this is from where her haunted memory comes. That she can Soulcast without a Soulcaster reinforces my belief.

The ten heartbeats are there; I just can't find them in the novel despite my extensive notes and post-its! Grr! Nevertheless, I'll be re-reading this novel long before it's sequel is released.

"She carried a concealed weapon that she hadn't used. She felt foolish for not even getting it out that night." p560

"...Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn't know how to use it. She was helpless. Except... Storms! she thought, frantic. I can't use that. I promised myself. She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act." p643, both hardcover

Also I'll eat my numbered first edition if Shallan did not kill her father. The theme is repeated so often, unless they are obtusely subtle, with nary an example of misdirection. It might have been partly accidental, but she did one or several actions that lead directly to her father's death/murder. (Not that I mourn him, its obvious that he was incredibly abusive to his kids)

[happyman he/him]

To me, the ambiguity of it all suggest strongly that Shallan didn't actually kill her father. I think it's more that she feels directly responsible for it - a personal truth, but not, strictly speaking, true. Either way, of course, she has his Shardblade.

Whatever else she is, Shallan's not stupid. However, even very smart people can be stupid when strong emotions come into play. Thus I'm not at all certain what Shallan's moral stance is on the death of her father. At the very least, though, I think we can assume at a minimum direct involvement in the events of her father's death, and also that she was probably there, and very likely alone with him, when he actually died.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Whatever else she is, Shallan's not stupid. However, even very smart people can be stupid when strong emotions come into play. Thus I'm not at all certain what Shallan's moral stance is on the death of her father. At the very least, though, I think we can assume at a minimum direct involvement in the events of her father's death, and also that she was probably there, and very likely alone with him, when he actually died.

I would say that Shallan seems to know:

"to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act."

[Uduak]

Regarding this matter i have more than a few words to say

1 did the father really have the shardblade? if true, why? How he obtained it? It's not a family heirloom or similar because he would have sell it ( trying to be furtive...) or make some kind of agreement and Voilà no more money problem. Or he had something very important to do that needed the use of Sharblade?( becoming the prince/king through the killing of the other royals and then defending his position, maybe with the backing of the Ghostblood) but why no one know about it(the brother, if he is really the knight could have been involved)? If not, how he obtained it? From the ghostblood? They really are so powerful to have two shardBlade to give away like this? And why do they need to kill Amaram? If it's something personal, how it's possible that he bought/obtained with so many issues? Found one? Maybe related to the maps?

And why Shallan killed him? It was only for his personality? He tried to violater her?(though he doesn't seem the type) She found out something about him (Shardblade, or some dark affair) and had a fight with him that degenerated?

And how she killed him? she doesn't seem " strong ", an accident? if so why there was fire? and why she wielded it and used it (on the soulcaster and possible on something else) if he was dead, maybe he keept it somewhere although i find it really improbable because it's too dangerous, themost easy way to hide it is being the holder. But there are stil a lot of problem like: being his father he really had the courage to invoke it against his daugher? and how the heck she grabbed it? i don't think it's the weapon of the murder because it would have caused an uproar in his family and we would have known by now. Maybe she Found it, the father became aware and they had a fight?

SOmeone said that maybe she only feels responsible and not actually killed him, maybe someone attacked him and she tried to defend him and failed.

An-nn-d maybe- aah aaah-(cough of tireness) Hoid appeared behind the father, touched him and said " I'm the death" or even better " I'm darth vader" and he had a heart attack.

So many possibilities, i'm really eager to find out what happened, but i don't know if i really want to have her as the second POV, and to me, it seems that -plot talking- the POV of dalinar must be the second,it can't be postponed( he is the damned Highprince now).

Pardon me if i was -in any means- confusing and repetitive.

I Beg your Endless Mercy

Your Faithful Servant

Edited August 21, 2012 by Tel'Aral

[happyman he/him]

I would say that Shallan seems to know:

"to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act."

Clarification: How she feels about it is obvious. If I, or my friends, will feel the same way when we find out what happened is what I was questioning.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Clarification: How she feels about it is obvious. If I, or my friends, will feel the same way when we find out what happened is what I was questioning.

Already, based on his kids, I suspect he was an abusive, if not molesting, dirtbag. So I'm not mourning him, but its also a tough proposition for me, assigning my morality to a character is something I unconsciously do, but do try to avoid.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Voldy

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Regarding this matter i have more than a few words to say

1 did the father really have the shardblade? if true, why? How he obtained it? It's not a family heirloom or similar because he would have sell it ( trying to be furtive...) or make some kind of agreement and Voilà no more money problem. Or he had something very important to do that needed the use of Sharblade?( becoming the prince/king through the killing of the other royals and then defending his position, maybe with the backing of the Ghostblood) but why no one know about it(the brother, if he is really the knight could have been involved)? If not, how he obtained it? From the ghostblood? They really are so powerful to have two shardBlade to give away like this? And why do they need to kill Amaram? If it's something personal, how it's possible that he bought/obtained with so many issues? Found one? Maybe related to the maps?

And why did Shallan kill him? It was only for his personality? He tried to violate her?(though he doesn't seem the type) She found out something about him (Shardblade, or some dark affair) and had a fight with him that degenerated?

And how she killed him? she doesn't seem " strong ", an accident? if so why there was fire? and why she wielded it and used it (on the soulcaster and possible on something else) if he was dead, maybe he kept it somewhere although i find it really improbable because it's too dangerous, them ost easy way to hide it is being the holder. But there are still a lot of problem like: being his father he really had the courage to invoke it against his daughter? and how the heck she grabbed it? i don't think it's the weapon of the murder because it would have caused an uproar in his family and we would have known by now. Maybe she Found it, the father became aware and they had a fight?

SOmeone said that maybe she only feels responsible and not actually killed him, maybe someone attacked him and she tried to defend him and failed.

An-nn-d maybe- aah aaah-(cough of tireness) Hoid appeared behind the father, touched him and said " I'm the death" or even better " I'm darth vader" and he had a heart attack.

So many possibilities, i'm really eager to find out what happened, but i don't know if i really want to have her as the second POV, and to me, it seems that -plot talking- the POV of dalinar must be the second,it can't be postponed( he is the damned Highprince now).

Pardon me if i was -in any means- confusing and repetitive.

I Beg your Endless Mercy

Your Faithful Servant

We've seen some of the rules about shardblades:

3. If a fighter goes limp , says stop, or taps out a fight is over a shardblade disappears, and is once again ten heartbeats away. See the Szeth fights.

4. When a shardbearer dies, it drops out of thin air. See Gavilar's assassination.

5. The shardbearer can force it to stay in existence, to give it away or to keep it active if he is say unhorsed or otherwise momentarily fumbling. See the Recreance dream or Dalinar's first CMoA.

So it is unlikely to the point of improbability that Shallan could ever just "find" it.

Remember that there are A LOT of missing shards in the world, based on Dalinar's dream. Shallan's family is an ancient one, and Shallan's father could have kept the Shardblade hidden for decades, and be in fact a family heirloom: a remnant of the house's former stature. Even the ghostblood's knight's shards, if her brother, could have been family heirlooms, though less likely.

I also respectfully disagree on him not being the "type". Shallan and her brothers all appear to have deep, psychological scars. Either madness runs in the family or the father was abusive.

Her brothers' POV does not imply blame for the father's death, iirc, so Shallan's "murder" was probably something that looked natural, or the body was unrecognizable.(from say a fire...)

I do agree that the Shardblade might have destroyed the Soulcaster. Most probable thing, imo, which raises some questions as to the cognitive nature of the things.

I love wild theories, so keep going and thinking outside the box, but thats my two cents.

I am mixed bag about Dalinar not being the next POV. I really like him, so hope for more from him, but it also means he and szeth probably don't die in the next book.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Voldy

[Kurkistan he/him]

I sincerely believe that Shallan had/has the power to wield a Shardblade and killed her own father in using it. I believe this is from where her haunted memory comes. That she can Soulcast without a Soulcaster reinforces my belief.

The ten heartbeats are there; I just can't find them in the novel despite my extensive notes and post-its! Grr! Nevertheless, I'll be re-reading this novel long before it's sequel is released.

There is no such thing as "the power to wield a Shardblade," as a specific power. You grab it, you own it, and then you can summon and use it. Also, since, as has been quoted multiple times, the Shardblade is the fruit of her sin, not the root of it, then she most likley got the Shardblade as a result of the death of her father.

Shallan could conceivably have grabbed it and then used it, but it's nigh impossible for a Shardblade to be taken against its (living) owner's will, suggesting that she grabbed it during or after the time when her father died, but did not use it to kill him.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Uduak]

There is no such thing as "the power to wield a Shardblade," as a specific power. You grab it, you own it, and then you can summon and use it. Also, since, as has been quoted multiple times, the Shardblade is the fruit of her sin, not the root of it, then she most likley got the Shardblade as a result of the death of her father.

Shallan could conceivably have grabbed it and then used it, but it's nigh impossible for a Shardblade to be taken against its (living) owner's will, suggesting that she grabbed it during or after the time when her father died, but did not use it to kill him.

I agree with you, it's almost impossible, Problem is: the almost only way to pick a shardblade is when the owner die,but in that case why she swing it against the Soulcaster? There's no reason, she needed it, i suppose the Soulcaster was the father's(probably dead now) wrist, maybe along the fight he casted it on a whim and him not being (likely) neither used to cast one nor trained by accident evocked it with the hand toward the other hand and cutted the the SC, now that i think about it maybe it's the release/death of the spren that caused his death and the fire( there was fire right?), or when a spren is released/dead the Stormlight is released from the fabrial as heat.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

the soulcaster was in his coat pocket, and nobody but her father and his steward even knew he had it before his death. So it got broken completely accidentally.

[Elwynn]

There is no such thing as "the power to wield a Shardblade," as a specific power. You grab it, you own it, and then you can summon and use it.

Very incorrect. At least it would seem so. Read the back of the dust jacket.

There's also honor's quote and the epigraph referring to shards being a part of people's soul, and returning it to how it was. Makes more sense when taken along with dust jacket, but seems to be a power unto itself that we haven't seen.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Very incorrect. At least it would seem so. Read the back of the dust jacket.

There's also honor's quote and the epigraph referring to shards being a part of people's soul, and returning it to how it was. Makes more sense when taken along with dust jacket, but seems to be a power unto itself that we haven't seen.

I have read it. Thank you for your concern, but while "Shardwielding" (which I have already hypothosized is "Admin powers" for Shards unlocked by being a real "owner" of them, read: KR) may well be a thing, Tamzin Ashevai was clearly referring to Shallan simply having a Shardblade as requiring some kind of power, which we know is not true. That was what I responding too.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Elwynn]

I have read it. Thank you for your concern, but while "Shardwielding" (which I have already hypothosized is "Admin powers" for Shards unlocked by being a real "owner" of them, read: KR) may well be a thing, Tamzin Ashevai was clearly referring to Shallan simply having a Shardblade as requiring some kind of power, which we know is not true. That was what I responding too.

Ah, see...that's what I get for skimming. Sorry about that. Carry on, carry on.

[Morsk he/him]

One thing about Shallan calling herself a murderer is that she's spent a lot of time studying philosophy, about the ethical consequences of killing people. And Jasnah even gave her part of a definition when Shallan accused her of murder, saying murder is a legal concept not a moral one.

So Shallan calling herself "murderer" could be the result of a hair-splitting definition. Maybe what she did was against Veden law, but something most of us wouldn't consider immoral.

[happyman he/him]

One thing about Shallan calling herself a murderer is that she's spent a lot of time studying philosophy, about the ethical consequences of killing people. And Jasnah even gave her part of a definition when Shallan accused her of murder, saying murder is a legal concept not a moral one.

So Shallan calling herself "murderer" could be the result of a hair-splitting definition. Maybe what she did was against Veden law, but something most of us wouldn't consider immoral.

I agree with all this, and was what I meant to say earlier. However, I feel that she believes that what she did was wrong. Despite the law, the term "murder" still carries very strong moral meaning, in contrast to "kill," which is more neutral. None of this means that I would consider what she did "murder," or feel that she had a choice, but it definitely carries meaning for her.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Is anyone else curious about whether every instance of Soulcasting will require a trip to Shadesmar by Shallan? Shallan observes Jasnah Soulcasting in an absentminded manner which would argue against Jasnah making the trip to Shadesmar for something like a paperweight or running out of ink. There must be a way to make shortcuts when it comes to Surgebinding Soulcasting. Also, since Ardents know of Shadesmar, do they sometimes make the trip themselves when using the Soulcaster fabrials?

Also, I see this topic has once again become about her father's death. It'll be nice when the next book comes out and our lack of information doesn't hobble us quite so much. I think we've exhausted almost all the possible scenarios at this point, from self-defense, to defending her brother, to an accident, to a third party's involvement. We have the contrasting evidence of a Shardblade-sheared Soulcaster found in an interior coat pocket and a Memory of a bloody corpse. The solutions we've come up with are bloody post-death Shardblade wounds (when it is capable of slicing flesh), the Shardblade cutting the Soulcaster after her father's death by a non-magical weapon, or a third party involved in the conflict. And we know that her brother got pretty badly injured, and now has a limp. His PoV didn't mention the Shardblade at all, so either he's avoiding the topic himself or he just doesn't know about it. He doesn't seem to blame Shallan for their father's death, but whether through ignorance or justification we don't know.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Is anyone else curious about whether every instance of Soulcasting will require a trip to Shadesmar by Shallan? Shallan observes Jasnah Soulcasting in an absentminded manner which would argue against Jasnah making the trip to Shadesmar for something like a paperweight or running out of ink. There must be a way to make shortcuts when it comes to Surgebinding Soulcasting. Also, since Ardents know of Shadesmar, do they sometimes make the trip themselves when using the Soulcaster fabrials?

Also, I see this topic has once again become about her father's death. It'll be nice when the next book comes out and our lack of information doesn't hobble us quite so much. I think we've exhausted almost all the possible scenarios at this point, from self-defense, to defending her brother, to an accident, to a third party's involvement. We have the contrasting evidence of a Shardblade-sheared Soulcaster found in an interior coat pocket and a Memory of a bloody corpse. The solutions we've come up with are bloody post-death Shardblade wounds (when it is capable of slicing flesh), the Shardblade cutting the Soulcaster after her father's death by a non-magical weapon, or a third party involved in the conflict. And we know that her brother got pretty badly injured, and now has a limp. His PoV didn't mention the Shardblade at all, so either he's avoiding the topic himself or he just doesn't know about it. He doesn't seem to blame Shallan for their father's death, but whether through ignorance or justification we don't know.

I agree in sentiment, but would like specific source of the highlighted.

[Voidus]

I don't think there was confirmation that the Soulcaster was cut by a Shardblade, on the other

Shallan froze, realizing for the first time what she’d been drawing. Not another scene from the alleyway, but a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug and swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half-eaten meal. And a dead man in fine clothing, lying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I don't think there was confirmation that the Soulcaster was cut by a Shardblade, on the other

It's not stated explicitly, but the only times the word "shear" is used in Way of Kings is when describing about Shardblades cutting things, and also when Shallan was thinking about how the Soulcaster was broken. It's possible that it was destroyed by conventional forces, but I really think that if "sheared" is used then it is evidence of a Shardblade's involvement.

Shallan fished in the safepouch inside her sleeve, bringing out her father’s broken Soulcaster. It had been sheared in two places: across one of the chains and through the setting that held one of the stones.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Page numbers?

Also, support the use of "shear", if possible. I'm rereading and hadn't noticed it being used with even shardblades.

[Voidus]

It's not stated explicitly, but the only times the word "shear" is used in Way of Kings is when describing about Shardblades cutting things,

Well yeah but Kaladin is the only POV military character who doesn't have a Shardblade and good luck trying to 'shear' something with a spear I don't think that's justification for saying that the word Shear is Shardblade specific.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Voidus

[name_here]

Regardless, Soulcasters are made of metal and neatly shearing one in two places, plus possibly through the gem that had been in the setting at the time, seems rather beyond Shallan's physical capabilities absent a Shardblade.

My personal theory on that incident is that Shallan grabbed a stiletto from somewhere and stabbed him with it while her father was holding the Shardblade/caused the Shardblade to appear on his death, and it sheared through the Soulcaster then.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

there were swords mounted on the wall in the flashback, I assumed one of those was the murder weapon. Or possibly a carving knife from the table.