Observer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 I'm going back to my old statement: We don't know enough and we're getting nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Wave-like behaviour? Almost sounds like you're suggesting wave-particle duality! Would Brandon have gone into that much trouble? He does have a scientific background.... Almost, I sort of have something in my head now that also incorporates Atium and Lerasium but I'll have to give it a bit of thought before I post anything on it. But yeah that phrase did come from that. All that being said I'm inclined to agree with Observer, we just don't know enough about the mechanics behind it to speculate yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cones For Eyes he/him Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 I've never really thought we had anything concrete to go on at any point but I do like my baseless speculation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) I've never really thought we had anything concrete to go on at any point but I do like my baseless speculation Agreed! let the baseless speculation resume! I believe that allomantic pulses actually consist of a cleverly concealed barrage of waffles! I should ammend my previous statement to 'we don't have enough information to accurately speculate yet. Edited August 30, 2012 by Voidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Everything we know says it should stack, but to me it just feels wrong >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted August 31, 2012 Report Share Posted August 31, 2012 Yeah I have a slight problem with the wave model, namely there would have to be some mechanism to cause all copperclouds to be in-phase I prefer to think of it as just they have wave-like behaviour. Well that's fairly easy, if they all have the same frequency and pre-defined phase shift they'd always be in synch. But I'm ready to discount my opinions now We don't have enough to go on, true, that's why we speculate. We can build theories like this because we want to imagine the logic behind something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Before we can go and make guesses as to if Copperclouds stack, it'd be nice to know what a coppercloud is, and how it works. Is it Investure that leaks out of you in cloud-form, blocking Bronze the same way a Shardblade blocks pushes and pulls? (This is assuming it's a specialized form of investure, or that Iron and Steel are naturally stronger metals that bronze, and therefore you'd need a serious smoker to create an aluminum-field) Is it some kind of barrier that can muffle the pulses? If so, what exactly is it made of and how does it work? Does it create some kind of bubble the keeps pulses from leaving the body, which will stifle the pulses all one its own? (I like this theory actually. Like metal attatched to the body, and pulse trapped inside your heavily invested body would be very hard to detect without enhanced bronze. If the coppercloud stops the pulses from leaving you, it means they don't stack and they work a whole lot differently than we thought.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Does it create some kind of bubble the keeps pulses from leaving the body, which will stifle the pulses all one its own? (I like this theory actually. Like metal attatched to the body, and pulse trapped inside your heavily invested body would be very hard to detect without enhanced bronze. If the coppercloud stops the pulses from leaving you, it means they don't stack and they work a whole lot differently than we thought.) I would say this one, it is an internal metal after all. But I disagree that it means they don't stack, they would simply give your body more investiture, requiring stronger bronze to detect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 I would say this one, it is an internal metal after all. But I disagree that it means they don't stack, they would simply give your body more investiture, requiring stronger bronze to detect. I don't think copper increases your investure. It simply contains your pulses, which has a finite limit at which is ceases to gain anything, ie: Once fully inside of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 I don't think copper increases your investure. It simply contains your pulses, which has a finite limit at which is ceases to gain anything, ie: Once fully inside of you. Well obviously some has to escape otherwise detecting it with bronze would be impossible, I would say that copper only contains most of the pulse, allowing some to escape, more like a normal window instead of soundproof glass, makes it quieter but it's still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Point. The kind that goes in your eyes. Likewise, apparently Hemalurgic copper counters hemalurgic bronze, so something has to be leaking out. (Sort of like the body leaks stormlight?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Does it create some kind of bubble the keeps pulses from leaving the body, which will stifle the pulses all one its own? (I like this theory actually. Like metal attatched to the body, and pulse trapped inside your heavily invested body would be very hard to detect without enhanced bronze. If the coppercloud stops the pulses from leaving you, it means they don't stack and they work a whole lot differently than we thought.) You're talking about the same as what happens with bendalloy, which I can get behind. If I had to visualize it, it'd be a spherical magnetic storm that scrambles all Allomantic signatures. I'm still going with the wave theory until I'm proven wrong, because I like to believe Brandon built Allomancy on science, and not fairies and cake. Mmm, cake. Copper can't contain the pulses, since we know Vin could penetrate Copperclouds at times. Which leads me to believe that a pulses wave signature could also be perceptually altered. A Seeker is tuned to the frequencies of Allomantic metals, and Copper attenuates out that frequency for a given metal, but leaves certain harmonics of the base frequency, which are weaker but vary around the base. Though that makes me think why it takes more effort to ping those harmonics than it does the base? I'll have to think about this some more. Feel free to rip apart my opinion Edited September 3, 2012 by Lyrebon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 Well obviously some has to escape otherwise detecting it with bronze would be impossible, I would say that copper only contains most of the pulse, allowing some to escape, more like a normal window instead of soundproof glass, makes it quieter but it's still there. If TLR can push on metals in the stomach, I get the feeling enough bronze can pierce beats in the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'm pretty sure that someone (Kelsier or Marsh I guess) stated that Bronze changed something inside of you, Vin also mentions the feeling of pulses washing across her I think, this seems to me to indicate that piercing the body isn't the issue, the pulse just wouldn't reach you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'm pretty sure that someone (Kelsier or Marsh I guess) stated that Bronze changed something inside of you, Vin also mentions the feeling of pulses washing across her I think, this seems to me to indicate that piercing the body isn't the issue, the pulse just wouldn't reach you. Interesting. So, you're saying we're backwards? The issue still feels to me that the beats can't be heard through the cloud, so not much changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 I don't like the wave explanation because there would almost certainly be destructive interference on a fairly regular basis. That would mean any Seeker could penetrate copperclouds some of the time, which would make it common knowledge that they were somewhat unreliable. Since it's pretty clear literally no one outside the Steel Orthodoxy knows they are not perfectly effective before Vin finds out, that is highly unlikely. Bear in mind that Smokers are at variable relative positions all the time and have no synchronization of their starting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Again, I prefer the theory of copperclouds and time bubbles being related, the difference being that one can move and one can't, and copperclouds lock most of your POC thumps inside your body, safe from detection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 "I don't like the wave explanation because there would almost certainly be destructive interference on a fairly regular basis. That would mean any Seeker could penetrate copperclouds " My physics in this area is a bit shaky but I think that waves need to have the same frequency for destructive interference? So Copper would not destructively interfere with Bronze. If there were two smokers they might though this was my earlier problem with Copperclouds stacking, it just depends on the distance between the points of origin, they might interfere constructively or destructively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) "I don't like the wave explanation because there would almost certainly be destructive interference on a fairly regular basis. That would mean any Seeker could penetrate copperclouds " My physics in this area is a bit shaky but I think that waves need to have the same frequency for destructive interference? So Copper would not destructively interfere with Bronze. If there were two smokers they might though this was my earlier problem with Copperclouds stacking, it just depends on the distance between the points of origin, they might interfere constructively or destructively. Phase shift and frequency both matter here. Think of two waves, one at 11kHz (f1) and one at 14kHz (f2). Draw them on a graph with the x-axis set to time in seconds. Time period = (1 / frequency), giving us 9.09e-5 seconds for f1, and 7.14e-5s for f2. This is the time required for the wave to complete one full oscillation, or 360 degrees. What you'd end up with here is two waves over-lapping, one longer than the other on the x-axis. To obtain the summation of these two waves should they be superimposed would be the instantaneous amplitude at time = x for both waves, where x is random. At the positive peak of f1, f2 will already be in its decline to zero, but it is still positive and therefore the sum of the two waves reinforces the superimposed image. However, when f1 is near zero, f2 will be negatively greater and therefore the sum of the two waves will be negative, resulting in a destructive relationship. Phase shift is useful because you can modulate when a wave starts so that you can effectively take a wave that is double the frequency of another wave and phase shift it so it produces more reinforcement than destructive interference. Your best bet is to have two waves of a similar frequency with zero phase shift between them. You can have the same frequency for destruction to occur aslong as your phase shift is not zero. Complete destructive interference occurs when f1 and f2 are the same frequency, but phase shifted by 180 degress. Edited September 5, 2012 by Lyrebon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 The interactions of waves with multiple frequencies can become complicated very, very quickly. I should know; I did my dissertation on one small aspect of the problem. However, even in the most complicated of situations I am familiar with, unless you are very careful, you will get times and places where the waves cancel catastrophically, at least at one frequency, just by chance. That doesn't seem to fit the copper-cloud at all unless the wavelength is so short, it doesn't matter---at which point the wave nature of the copper-cloud is mostly irrelevant. A wave-like nature just doesn't fit with what has been observed with copper-clouds. It seems a lot more like pulling the fabric of the universe tight. Like the time bubbles, except in a different way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Yasha she/her Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 The interactions of waves with multiple frequencies can become complicated very, very quickly. I should know; I did my dissertation on one small aspect of the problem. However, even in the most complicated of situations I am familiar with, unless you are very careful, you will get times and places where the waves cancel catastrophically, at least at one frequency, just by chance. That doesn't seem to fit the copper-cloud at all unless the wavelength is so short, it doesn't matter---at which point the wave nature of the copper-cloud is mostly irrelevant. A wave-like nature just doesn't fit with what has been observed with copper-clouds. It seems a lot more like pulling the fabric of the universe tight. Like the time bubbles, except in a different way. I like this interpretation. It's terse but it seems to codify what some of the guys in here have been saying. I've had that problem before with a tuning circuit's harmonics cancelling out some of the base frequencies. Not so good when you're using it within a power supply converter Of course waves are not a simple topic, hence why an entire division of physics is dedicated to their phenomena. I just gave a very simple overview of what tends to happen when you have the minimal amount of waves interacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Short answer: If it's waves, they'd cancel from time to time. If that were so, somebody would definately notice, probably a mistborn or seeker. That doesn't work. However, I'm revising my previous statement. Copperclouds probably do stack, considering they can be empowered hemalurgically and with flaring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Short answer: If it's waves, they'd cancel from time to time. If that were so, somebody would definately notice, probably a mistborn or seeker. That doesn't work. However, I'm revising my previous statement. Copperclouds probably do stack, considering they can be empowered hemalurgically and with flaring. Yeah, that's a good summary. My contribution is that adding extra waves and frequencies doesn't really change that fact in most situations. So yeah. Don't forget that you can also get Copper Savants. In fact, Copper Savants are probably the most common ones (and easily the safest kind to be). This is yet another way to power up copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Just because they can be enhanced doesn't mean that two different ones stack. It's possible the most powerful one simply displaces the others. Alternately, copperclouds might simply lower the pulses to a fixed threshold, with more powerful ones having a lower threshold and more powerful bronze being able to detect lower thresholds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Namehere has a point. Two actually. Maybe he's a Kandra? /bad joke Not sure if I like the idea though, considering savents and flaring and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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