Aminar Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Just because they can be enhanced doesn't mean that two different ones stack. It's possible the most powerful one simply displaces the others. Alternately, copperclouds might simply lower the pulses to a fixed threshold, with more powerful ones having a lower threshold and more powerful bronze being able to detect lower thresholds. I agree here. Think of a coppercloud like a speaker. Do two speakers make things louder? Not really. They cover a little more space. They attune to the ears a little better, but all it really adds is stereo. A coppercloud works the same way. It isn't like a time bubble.(And yes, speakers can mute sound if they put off the right frequencies just right.) Besides which, if copperclouds stacked you wouldn't have just Clubs-You'd have the a gang of copperclouds all working together to mute allomantic signatures in the same building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Besides which, if copperclouds stacked you wouldn't have just Clubs-You'd have the a gang of copperclouds all working together to mute allomantic signatures in the same building. The other points about not stacking in these posts are possible, but this deserves special attention, mostly because I'm pretty sure that Clubs did exactly that with his apprentices. That was probably to cover more area because they thought that a single copperclouds was enough, but I don't think this argument flies even with that caveat in my objection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Besides which, if copperclouds stacked you wouldn't have just Clubs-You'd have the a gang of copperclouds all working together to mute allomantic signatures in the same building. If people didn't know bronze could pierce a coppercloud, what makes you think they'd know stacking has an effect? Better yet, since they don't think bronze can get through, why would they find it necessary to stack them? On a side note, I'm fairly sure Clubs had 3+ other smokers in the shop to keep thing covered. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 If people didn't know bronze could pierce a coppercloud, what makes you think they'd know stacking has an effect? Better yet, since they don't think bronze can get through, why would they find it necessary to stack them? On a side note, I'm fairly sure Clubs had 3+ other smokers in the shop to keep thing covered. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. That was implied as to cover shifts while sleeping and the like.. The fact is Clubs had been complaining everybody got caught eventually. He had to have had suspicions at minimum thar copperclouds were infallible. But they never went through any effort to have two clouds going at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 But they never went through any effort to have two clouds going at once. Presumably because they didn't know whether or not they would stack, Vin is the only person among them who could pierce Copperclouds and so the only one who could tell them whether or not it would work. I think that in-world opinions aren't a basis for saying that they definitely don't stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 What Voidus said. In world occurences are fine, but in world opinions have consistently proved incorrect throughout the cosmere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 1000s of years and you don't think anybody tried to see if copperclouds stacked made you safer from the Inquisitors? Obviously they still got caught at some point or the qord would have spread through the underworld pretty quickly. That isnt something thats kept secret. Last point. If the RPG doesn't say they stack- given the waning importance of copper as a story element- I don't think there's any reason it would need to be kept secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 1000s of years and you don't think anybody tried to see if copperclouds stacked made you safer from the Inquisitors? Judging by Kelsier's reaction, nobody knew they could pierce clouds. Everyone thought it was something else that gave them away. Nobody had a reason to try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cones For Eyes he/him Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 It seems like there hasn't been much, what I would call, scientific research on the way allomancy and how each of the metals works in world. In that regard, I wouldn't be very surprised if stacking/non-stacking copperclouds isn't common knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 If two Rioters try to get a person angry, it's easier than if you had just one. Two pulls beat one pull. I see no reason for copperclouds to work differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 If two Rioters try to get a person angry, it's easier than if you had just one. Two pulls beat one pull. I see no reason for copperclouds to work differently. Two people burning Bronze aren't better at detectng someone. Three people burning isn't easier to detect than 5. This is working on different principles than Emotional Allomancy. It's working on something akin to sound. That's how the books describe it, I would assume it works under the same principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cones For Eyes he/him Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 But the ripples aren't in the physical rhelm, their ripples in the power of creation. At the moment, I just haven't seen any evidence that the copper clouds behave like waves physically. It just seems like if copperclouds do stack, then a wave model of copperclouds would be noticed a lot easier than a simple binary on/off model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Two people burning Bronze aren't better at detectng someone. Three people burning isn't easier to detect than 5. This is working on different principles than Emotional Allomancy. It's working on something akin to sound. That's how the books describe it, I would assume it works under the same principles. Bronze changes something inside of yourself, so that's akin to saying two thugs burning next to each other doesn't make either one of them stronger than normal. And I imagine three people burning vs five people burning would be easier to detect simply because they're making five seperate sets of waves instead of three, akin to sound as you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Bronze changes something inside of yourself, so that's akin to saying two thugs burning next to each other doesn't make either one of them stronger than normal. And I imagine three people burning vs five people burning would be easier to detect simply because they're making five seperate sets of waves instead of three, akin to sound as you said. This is what I was just thinking and I also had the thought that it appears that the external abilities stack while the internal do not (Makes sense) which would lend credence to Copperclouds not stacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Erm...Copper is external, so I don't see how the theory "lends credence" to them not stacking..... [confusion] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Erm...Copper is external, ????? Copper is the internal mental pulling metal? Zinc and Brass are the external mental abilities. [Confusion] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I could have sworn Bronze was internal (Change inside yourself to detect thumps) and Copper was External (Spreads outside of you to muffle thumps) I'll check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Bronze and Copper are the internal mental metals, Zinc and Brass are the external. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 But the ripples aren't in the physical rhelm, their ripples in the power of creation. At the moment, I just haven't seen any evidence that the copper clouds behave like waves physically. It just seems like if copperclouds do stack, then a wave model of copperclouds would be noticed a lot easier than a simple binary on/off model. The pulsing feel is much like sound. The fact each metal pulses on a different frequency is much like sound. The Fact Copper acts as a muffler is quite a bit like sound, although that one stretches things. How it muffles said sound is never explained. Is it that it weakens the frequency, counters the frequency, that the waves don't move through it. I think it weakens the pulses as they leave the body though, given that somebody burning across from a coppercloud but not in it seems to be just as detectable as if they weren't in a coppercloud.(otherwise I can see an Allomancer and a seeker walking along parralel streets until somebody was muted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cones For Eyes he/him Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 The pulsing feel is much like sound. The fact each metal pulses on a different frequency is much like sound. I agree with you that these properties are very soundlike. To stretch that interpretation requires destructive interference in some places which just hasn't been mentioned at all. I just can't imagine that in all the years that copperclouds have been operating, noone has noticed a weakness as big as a weak spot in the cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 We could just say that sound is the body's way of enterpreting the crazy new information it is given. But meh. If Bronze really did operate on sounds, there would have been rumors of breakable copperclouds. Kelsier's reaction to it proves that there are no such rumors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 We could just say that sound is the body's way of enterpreting the crazy new information it is given. But meh. If Bronze really did operate on sounds, there would have been rumors of breakable copperclouds. Kelsier's reaction to it proves that there are no such rumors. Because Kel knows all? TLR squashed tons of knowledge, all the time. We can't take character's lack of knowledge of anything for proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Because Kel knows all? TLR squashed tons of knowledge, all the time. We can't take character's lack of knowledge of anything for proof. My point is, he is suprised as heck when Vin busts his coppercloud. He adamantly replies that Vin is special, and that over a thousand years nobody has ever mentioned anything about copper's lack of ability. If there had been even a shred of a rumor about copper, somebody would have spread it, and somebody would have mentioned it. Somebody underground who runs on rumors, like Kelsier, would have at least heard of the rumor before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Keep in mind that while TLR may be able to quell information among the nobilities allomancer population, among the Skaa this would become much more difficult. If a half-skaa Smoker and Seeker discovered that Copperclouds become weaker under certain circumstances they wouldn't exactly go telling the Inquisitors, they'd tell other Skaa and the Steel Ministry already hunts them so it's not exactly like they could say "Right TLR wants to hush up some rumours now we're really going to try to catch some half-skaa allomancers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Keep in mind that while TLR may be able to quell information among the nobilities allomancer population, among the Skaa this would become much more difficult. If a half-skaa Smoker and Seeker discovered that Copperclouds become weaker under certain circumstances they wouldn't exactly go telling the Inquisitors, they'd tell other Skaa and the Steel Ministry already hunts them so it's not exactly like they could say "Right TLR wants to hush up some rumours now we're really going to try to catch some half-skaa allomancers. I actually was thinking Noblemen. Since they are allowed to use allomancy freely, they'de be more likely to notice something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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