Feruchemical Zinc and Allomantic Atium

[Voidus]

@Voidus: It does imply a method of testing free will, though human cloning is currently illegal. We could do it on AIs, supposing a sufficiently advanced learning AI as to be self-aware.

We'd also need a realistic enough simulation of the world (either that or a way to snapshot someones memory) and a heck of a lot of programmers, still I would guess that once technology becomes sufficiently advanced psychologists (and philosophers I suppose) will begin using computer simulations like this as it allows methods of testing unavailable with humans, but then I suppose the moral questions will arise of if the AI is sufficiently intelligent and self aware that it can perfectly simulate a human can we morally use it for testing purposes? But that's all a bit off topic again.

The best way I can phrase my views is that everyone on Scadrial would have the potential for free will, but only through usage of precognitive abilities would they be able to utilize it.

[Aminar]

Yes but that also leads to what I'm saying. You can't change future without seeing it/knowing it. Atium has same effect free will or not. Vin's shadow split into two because she saw future through Zane's actions, not because she had free will EVEN if she had free will too.

Again, it isn't seeing the future any more than me seeing a car driving down the street with its blinker on and knowing it will turn is seeing the future. There is nothing metaphysical about her seeing his muscle twitch and predicting his action. Thus humans can defy Atium.

As to the Free Will Debate, what it is in real life doesn't matter for the books. The authors beliefs and representations of things within the books do. I think its fairly clear Mistborn characters have souls, free will, and can do other things normal people can't.

[Voidus]

"There is nothing metaphysical about her seeing his muscle twitch and predicting his action. Thus humans can defy Atium."

But because there IS something metaphysical which is causing his muscle to react it's like she just gained a brief imperfect amount of Atium, if Zane didn't have Atium then you would be right it would just be a reaction to what she sees and can extrapolate not true precognition but because Zane could see the future his actions (Which are caused by him knowing the future) show Vin a piece of what the future is definitely going to be (as opposed to guessing what the future would be like in your case of the headlights) so Vin still needs to react to the Atium to do this.

Another way to look at it is to take a longer term view, suppose that there was the ability for true precognition into the future (clear visions of say the events of the next week) by telling people what you saw in this vision you could give other people the knowledge of the future even though they did not personally witness it and this would give them the ability to change it too.

[happyman he/him]

Again, it isn't seeing the future any more than me seeing a car driving down the street with its blinker on and knowing it will turn is seeing the future. There is nothing metaphysical about her seeing his muscle twitch and predicting his action. Thus humans can defy Atium.

As to the Free Will Debate, what it is in real life doesn't matter for the books. The authors beliefs and representations of things within the books do. I think its fairly clear Mistborn characters have souls, free will, and can do other things normal people can't.

Even in the real world, if we have free will, it is emphatically constrained. Reaction time would be a constraint in any case. This would carry to the Cosmere with no modification, as far as I can tell.

I'm not going to get into the philosophical debate, although it's a good one with some interesting scientific history behind it. Too likely to get messy.

Edit: Also, that analogy is bad. The driver could have forgotten to turn the blinker off. The driver might realize that they are at the wrong intersection. The driver might fall asleep. The car's tire might blow. The question of whether you could still make this prediction if you knew all the variables affecting that is the essence of the problem being discussed, and thus I will stay out of it.

Edited August 23, 2012 by happyman

[Aminar]

Even in the real world, if we have free will, it is emphatically constrained. Reaction time would be a constraint in any case. This would carry to the Cosmere with no modification, as far as I can tell.

I'm not going to get into the philosophical debate, although it's a good one with some interesting scientific history behind it. Too likely to get messy.

Edit: Also, that analogy is bad. The driver could have forgotten to turn the blinker off. The driver might realize that they are at the wrong intersection. The driver might fall asleep. The car's tire might blow. The question of whether you could still make this prediction if you knew all the variables affecting that is the essence of the problem being discussed, and thus I will stay out of it.

And Zane could have a muscle cramp, a brain anuerism, get stabbed in the back, etc. There are always other variables, One's Atium doesn't appear to recognize either. I don't see how the analogy is bad. Far from perfect, but understandable to most people with internet access.

The debate has wandered way off topic. The initial question I posed was if Atium causes a reflexive response to the action. We don't really have a lot of evidence on that, but its implied at times and the oppositre is implied at times. The other question, the real one, is where an Atium shadow is drawn from. Given that Atium doesn't see effects of outside interference such as getting stabbed it can't be entirely precognitave. Nobody has given a good reason it isn't drawn from a persons plans or subconscious. There is a good deal of evidence in characters possibly flawed opinions that Atium does rely on thought, a form of mind reading.

[Eric]

Yes but that also leads to what I'm saying. You can't change future without seeing it/knowing it. Atium has same effect free will or not. Vin's shadow split into two because she saw future through Zane's actions, not because she had free will EVEN if she had free will too.

I don't see how that follows from what I'm saying. You're discussing the possibility of precognition which can change the future. I'm mostly wondering how one can prove, or even really define, free will. While interrelated, I don't see one leading to the other directly.

As for Atium's true effect, consider this: "Atium shows possible futures accounting for a finite but sufficiently large number of variables to make it appear to be a single future for most persons or groups of persons. While we don't know any other ways to introduce sufficient variables to create multiple atium shadows, preemptively reacting to future events causes multiple potential futures to become visible to the Atium-burner. We do know that Duralumin-enhanced Atium gives a more comprehensive vision of how things will play out, even accounting for those compounded variables, as when letting Elend choose to die to free Vin to end Ruin despite Marsh burning Atium." Is there anything inconsistent there with what we've seen in canon? And yet it doesn't require any sort of absolute future or predestination beyond some basic physical laws; the soul could be completely unbound and free to choose any action and Atium would still behave precisely as it does in the book with this hypothesis.

As to the Free Will Debate, what it is in real life doesn't matter for the books. The authors beliefs and representations of things within the books do. I think its fairly clear Mistborn characters have souls, free will, and can do other things normal people can't.

Agreed.

As far as Atium being related to mind reading, I offer the prediction of unattended objects as a counter to that hypothesis being complete.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Eric

[Voidus]

And Zane could have a muscle cramp, a brain anuerism, get stabbed in the back, etc. There are always other variables, One's Atium doesn't appear to recognize either. I don't see how the analogy is bad. Far from perfect, but understandable to most people with internet access.

The debate has wandered way off topic. The initial question I posed was if Atium causes a reflexive response to the action. We don't really have a lot of evidence on that, but its implied at times and the oppositre is implied at times. The other question, the real one, is where an Atium shadow is drawn from. Given that Atium doesn't see effects of outside interference such as getting stabbed it can't be entirely precognitave. Nobody has given a good reason it isn't drawn from a persons plans or subconscious. There is a good deal of evidence in characters possibly flawed opinions that Atium does rely on thought, a form of mind reading.

But she wasn't trying to see what Zane was going to do in the future, she was trying to see what SHE was going to do in the future, and since she had an atium shadow to Zane she obviously wasn't going to die from a brain anuerism.

I think that if Atium relied upon mind reading (Which also seems incredibly unlikely to me because Ruin specifically CANNOT read minds, and if the whole Shard can't somehow I doubt that a piece of his body could) then the mistborn would know it and so this technique would be quite well known, besides Vin specifically says afterwards that she did it because Zane let her see the future. I also find it difficult to believe that no one else ever changed their mind while mistborn were fighting them with Atium.

As Eric said we also have objects whose future is predicted (Arrows come to mind) so it would either have to be actual precognition for objects and mind reading for people or just straight precognition for all, Occam would suggest we avoid needlessly adding exceptions.

[happyman he/him]

Y'know, I think, despite the look of things, that people are coming to general agreement here.

I think the simplest way to say it is that Atium allows you to see all possible futures, limited by how much you can understand and how much power you have. If you are just a mortal and can burn only a little at a time (compared to, say, full Shard power or Duralumin atium) this means you can just see the next few seconds, because after a few seconds there is divergence and the shadows become too faint to see, and so your mind doesn't process things beyond that.

I think this is consistent with what we have seen. Vin using Zane's foresight against him agrees with this; she sees him respond to her Atium shadow, which creates a new possible future. Note that Zane saw that possible future, once he had made it much more likely through his own actions!

As for compulsion: I doubt it gives you a compulsion so much as it enhances your entire mind. If you are in a fight, you want to survive. It's well below the level of conscious control unless you really, really deliberately sit down hard on it. Atium probably just enhances that instinct, which exists naturally already. But if you decide you want to lose the fight, for strategic or social reasons and you have enough self-control to do it in normal circumstances, I don't think Atium will change that.

[Voidus]

I think the simplest way to say it is that Atium allows you to see all possible futures, limited by how much you can understand and how much power you have. If you are just a mortal and can burn only a little at a time (compared to, say, full Shard power or Duralumin atium) this means you can just see the next few seconds, because after a few seconds there is divergence and the shadows become too faint to see, and so your mind doesn't process things beyond that.

I disagree with this bit, the reason you can only see a few seconds into the future is that like all allomantic metals there is a fixed rate at which Atium can be burned, not necessarily because you lack the mental capacity and cannot process this.

Agree with all the rest, sounds good to me

Edited August 24, 2012 by Voidus

[Aminar]

See that point about Ruin's inability to read minds is definitely a good one. I can get behind that. It does a good job of balancing mental speeds ability to counter Atium. That said, I still see it as a potent way to recreate Vin's split though.

[Voidus]

See that point about Ruin's inability to read minds is definitely a good one. I can get behind that. It does a good job of balancing mental speeds ability to counter Atium. That said, I still see it as a potent way to recreate Vin's split though.

I honestly can't believe it took me that long to think of that one

I agree that Zinc would be useful even against precognitive foresight since you could take ages to decide where they are blocking, how to react, etc.

EDIT: The problem is that in a fight situation everything happens too fast for most people fighting a seer to think 'Oh well he's about to block here so that's obviously where I'm going to attack instead I'll attack here' I'd say that only Feruchemical Zinc, maybe steel and allomantic pewter users could do this with any reliability others might be able to pull it off but it would be hugely risky.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Voidus

[happyman he/him]

I disagree with this bit, the reason you can only see a few seconds into the future is that like all allomantic metals there is a fixed rate at which Atium can be burned, not necessarily because you lack the mental capacity and cannot process this.

Agree with all the rest, sounds good to me

They're kind of related. After all, if Atium didn't give you mental benefits as well as temporal ones, you wouldn't be able to process the information fast enough to use it. You are limited in how much Atium you can burn, the enhancement to the mind is also limited. Hence "power" and "mental ability" are linked very closely together, and in some respects may be the same thing.

[Aminar]

I honestly can't believe it took me that long to think of that one

I agree that Zinc would be useful even against precognitive foresight since you could take ages to decide where they are blocking, how to react, etc.

EDIT: The problem is that in a fight situation everything happens too fast for most people fighting a seer to think 'Oh well he's about to block here so that's obviously where I'm going to attack instead I'll attack here' I'd say that only Feruchemical Zinc, maybe steel and allomantic pewter users could do this with any reliability others might be able to pull it off but it would be hugely risky.

Totally agree. And believe you me, I know what you mean about fighting being hectic as hell. Even prediction that isn't more forcing a given action is almost impossible. Basically the only prediction is feinting to draw a reflexive reaction you can exploit... Or baiting charges, but skilled fighters don't charge without making absolutely sure it will work...

[Observer]

The problem is, you can't think "I'm going to sorta attack and then change to whatever this guy thinks I'm about to do."

I don't think your atium shadow would work properly with that. I'm fairly sure you have to be totally comitted to your course of action, and then change based on what is seen. In this event a coppermind would be wonderful. Just suck out the knowledge of the Seer's impending doom and put it back in your head just as he starts to block (Assuming you're either a full Feruchemist or your thoughts move like an Inquisitor with Tetanus.)

Edited August 28, 2012 by Observer

[Aminar]

I dunno either way. I'm not actually arguing it at this point but Atium likely has little to do with commitment. Now how does Atium work with bendalloy bubbles? How bout Cadmium?

[Voidus]

I dunno either way. I'm not actually arguing it at this point but Atium likely has little to do with commitment. Now how does Atium work with bendalloy bubbles? How bout Cadmium?

Interesting question, would a Seer be able to negate the deflection of bullets by knowing where it's going to hit?

Well actually probably not since they don't generally see what the results of their own actions are. but still it's nice to dream

[Eric]

Interesting question, would a Seer be able to negate the deflection of bullets by knowing where it's going to hit?

Well actually probably not since they don't generally see what the results of their own actions are. but still it's nice to dream

Is that true with projectiles, though? Once it's out of their hands, it's going to follow a completely predictable path. They could pull off Wax's trick of calculating the deflection, at the very least.

[Voidus]

Is that true with projectiles, though? Once it's out of their hands, it's going to follow a completely predictable path. They could pull off Wax's trick of calculating the deflection, at the very least.

Yeah that's a good point, what if you had two people, 1 Seer 1 Bendalloy misting (obviously) the Bendalloy misting picks a spot to shoot in, the Seer should be able to tell where this shot would go (He hasn't interfered) they tell the Bendalloy misting hit or miss the bendalloy misting then changes targets.

This would either

1. Not let you see whether the second bullet will hit, keeps showing you original course of events.

2. Split Atium shadows to 2 possibilities.

3. Create new atium shadow but also destroys old (Not likely)

I'm inclined to say two since it's basically just a voluntary use of what Vin did.

However this is still hugely impractical since Atium is so incredibly rare, but it could be used to pull off the one perfect shot (Against say a homicidal mistborn?) against a powerful opponent

[Observer]

I imagine a Slider's bubble would cause the Seer to be able to react to what they do. It gives the reflexes to cope with the shadows, so it might give you enough to overcome the disorienting effect of Bendalloy. Either that or the shadow would move to fast you'd be thrown off and your Atium would be near useless. I kinda like the first.

[dj26792 he/him]

I think it would just be a blur inside the bubble as the people inside moved through the expanded timeline but the shadow would return to normal as they left the bubble

*this assumes the seer is outside the bubble, inside the bubble is too boring to bother explaining when typing on my phone.

[Observer]

I'm just wondering how effective atium would be against a slider inside a bubble. Would your reaction time still be good enough to block the super-speed punches? Really, it's just like a steel compounder. Can eithe rone of those beat Atium?

[Aminar]

Why would anybody burning Atium sit next to the bubble? They'd either pop into the bubble or just stay away and dodge attacks. not to mention I don't think you can just punch out of a bubble. There's more information needed on that subject. Personally I'd assume as soon as you start moving out of the bubble(even just your fists or dueling cane or what have you, that the bubble pops or pops the attacker out of the bubble(if they aren't the slider) This goes into the discussion about the borders of speed bubbles in general, but Bendalloy really don't grant super speed in any reasonable way for combat.

[Vikter]

Bendalloy may not grant super speed of any kind but it might screw with atium shadows. If a slider bubbles and uses it to line up a pistol or shotgun round, then drop bubble and fire at someone burning atium how would the shadows react? Would the shadow even be visible inside of a bubble, would it be moving super fast? How about for the split second the bubble is down before the shot goes off, would that be enough time to react to a now stable shadow? A slider would be able to pull off some sick headshots that way ( went into FPS gamer mode for a second there sorry).

**Edit** a Bendalloy Steel twinborn would be a absurd combo too, you could easily tap your speed as soon as you drop you Bendalloy bubble to make even the few seconds you are open to counter attacks disappear. Not to mention the harrasment capabilities being able to speed burst into the flank of your opponent and trap him in the bubble would be devastating.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Vikter

[Aminar]

Bendalloy may not grant super speed of any kind but it might screw with atium shadows. If a slider bubbles and uses it to line up a pistol or shotgun round, then drop bubble and fire at someone burning atium how would the shadows react? Would the shadow even be visible inside of a bubble, would it be moving super fast? How about for the split second the bubble is down before the shot goes off, would that be enough time to react to a now stable shadow? A slider would be able to pull off some sick headshots that way ( went into FPS gamer mode for a second there sorry).

**Edit** a Bendalloy Steel twinborn would be a absurd combo too, you could easily tap your speed as soon as you drop you Bendalloy bubble to make even the few seconds you are open to counter attacks disappear. Not to mention the harrasment capabilities being able to speed burst into the flank of your opponent and trap him in the bubble would be devastating.

Well among other things Bullets and Atium seem to be a less than fantastic combo. Your best coinshots(as according to the rpg) can fling things at 250mph. A handgun bullet goes about 4 times that speed, much faster than even Atium users should be able to dodge without something extra(Feruchemical Zinc and/or steel) I would guess though that the shadow hits normal speed just outside the bubble, no different than if the coinshot were firing it any other way, just a few feet less to react with. Not a huge advantage. I do think that shadows within a bubble would end up really wierd, maybe even blurring and fogging the whole bubble by virtue of the sheer amount of spiritual and cognitive muckery going on within.

[name_here]

How fast bullets travel is pretty much irrelevant, actually. Regardless of how fast the object travels, Atium users have precisely as much warning because they see a fixed distance into the future. Also, I'm pretty sure that bendalloy bubbles wouldn't alter the final shadow, but would make it really easy to split shadows because the Atium burner would need to start dodging a long time before the shot is fired from the perspective of the Slider.