[Spoilers] 2 Firefight Errors

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Actually the bomb had a manual remote activated by Regalia and it´s fairly safe to assume she wouldn´t have activated it until Pro was close enough to stop it.

 

 

And it was the one time David didn't act with reckless abandon and just kill the Epic!

[Chaos he/him]

Curi, you would do well to remember to be courteous to others here. It is fine to disagree, but you really need to watch your tone. You need not be so aggressive.

[dyring]

Curi, It is not needed perhaps, but it is helpful.

 

Consider that Regalia is unlikely to appear right on the edge of her possible reach often, or at all. Thus, the circles will not be as far appart as they are in your blog post. The common area where her base could be is much larger then it is in your post, as the circles are closer together. (I could describe my point easier in me own primary language, dont know the proper terms for what I mean in english. )

 

So while yes, they could get the base without that southeastern mark, getting a mark in the southeast is likely to bite of a large chunk of the area where it could be, as its a large blank on points so far, especially as babylar is very long and narrow(Unless I missremember manhattans geography alot;). Thus it would be valuable. But not absolutely needed.

 

Also, its David there. Its not necesserily a book error when a character is wrong. It may simply be that David dont know math, not that the book is wrong... (thats rather often the case in books really. Chars often lies or are wrong;)) 

Edited January 13, 2015 by dyring

[Vision he/him]

And it was the one time David didn't act with reckless abandon and just kill the Epic!

This so much.

 

On topic, though, I think your explanation on the first page was an excellent counterargument, basically what I would have said if I'd been in the position to do so

 

I'll admit I thought the same on the first point curi brought up. I equated High Epic with prime invincibility... not sure if that was stated somewhere, a logical assumption, or just my mind making faulty connections. 

[Edgedancer he/him]

I'll admit I thought the same on the first point curi brought up. I equated High Epic with prime invincibility... not sure if that was stated somewhere, a logical assumption, or just my mind making faulty connections. 

The definitions given for High Epic and prime invincibility are identical, so your assumption should be correct. However, the term High Epic also gets used against definition in the book for powerful Epics without protective powers (Regalia) and in Steelheart David said only a couple of High Epics have a prime invincibilty, so the whole deal is less than clear.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I think the confusion on terminology is a great portion of the worldbuilding. There is nothing set. Half the time I think they are making it up as they go along because it's such a wide spectrum. Fortuity is considered a high epic by definition, but is considerably less powerful than Regalia.

[curi]

Maybe this is the wrong place for me, since anything more complex than basic math gives me a headache, but...really, a possible error in calculations didn't dampen my enjoyment of the story at all. The geometry wasn't even a huge deal in the book itself, since Regalia turned out to have just been leading them on.

 

It didn't dampen my enjoyment of the story either. It increased it. Figuring this out was fun. I don't know why people get so touchy about it.

[curi]

Curi, you would do well to remember to be courteous to others here. It is fine to disagree, but you really need to watch your tone. You need not be so aggressive.

 

do you realize your post is itself aggressive to me? e.g. you say i "really need" to do an order you've just given me. and you attack me as "so aggressive". that's aggressive. and you did this with a 100% off topic post, not even trying to address the thread topics, just ignoring them.

Edited January 13, 2015 by curi

[curi]

do you realize your post is itself aggressive to me? e.g. you say i "really need" to do an order you've just given me. and you attack me as "so aggressive". that's aggressive.

 

Curi, It is not needed perhaps, but it is helpful.

 

Consider that Regalia is unlikely to appear right on the edge of her possible reach often, or at all. Thus, the circles will not be as far appart as they are in your blog post. The common area where her base could be is much larger then it is in your post, as the circles are closer together. (I could describe my point easier in me own primary language, dont know the proper terms for what I mean in english. )

 

So while yes, they could get the base without that southeastern mark, getting a mark in the southeast is likely to bite of a large chunk of the area where it could be, as its a large blank on points so far, especially as babylar is very long and narrow(Unless I missremember manhattans geography alot;). Thus it would be valuable. But not absolutely needed.

 

Also, its David there. Its not necesserily a book error when a character is wrong. It may simply be that David dont know math, not that the book is wrong... (thats rather often the case in books really. Chars often lies or are wrong;)) 

 

so then you need data points near the edge of her range (at the right distance) in any direction, not to the south east in particular.

 

if you want to blame stuff on character errors instead of book errors ... well you could be right and i don't really find that interesting. i think the geometry is much more interesting than whether to blame David. for the High Epic thing, whether to blame David for the mistake is more interesting, but in that case i'm not really convinced, he is a maybe to join the lorists, he's a great scholar who can handle details well instead of just randomly ignoring lorist definitions after learning them.

Edited January 13, 2015 by curi

[Andrew C]

The key thing is that the characters are wrong about how to track Regalia, and the book states what the characters believe, not what is actually true.

[PeterAhlstrom he/him]

do you realize your post is itself aggressive to me? e.g. you say i "really need" to do an order you've just given me. and you attack me as "so aggressive". that's aggressive. and you did this with a 100% off topic post, not even trying to address the thread topics, just ignoring them.

Chaos is a moderator of this forum and was giving you official instructions.

[Voidus]

so then you need data points near the edge of her range (at the right distance) in any direction, not to the south east in particular.

 

if you want to blame stuff on character errors instead of book errors ... well you could be right and i don't really find that interesting. i think the geometry is much more interesting than whether to blame David. for the High Epic thing, whether to blame David for the mistake is more interesting, but in that case i'm not really convinced, he is a maybe to join the lorists, he's a great scholar who can handle details well instead of just randomly ignoring lorist definitions after learning them.

You still haven't addressed the many, many other points people have raised as to why they'd use a certain direction.

David frequently uses Lorist descriptions and obviously understands them, that would be enough to join them. But he also invented his own system of classification, it would be OoC for him to so quickly switch his inner monologue when he's been using his own definitions most of his life.

 

do you realize your post is itself aggressive to me? e.g. you say i "really need" to do an order you've just given me. and you attack me as "so aggressive". that's aggressive. and you did this with a 100% off topic post, not even trying to address the thread topics, just ignoring them.

I really don't think it was, he said you 'really need' to do something because he's a forum mod. That's what they're supposed to do. Hence also why he didn't respond to the topic in question, he likely just quickly scanned the thread and saw that some moderating was needed.

[mathmo]

So, for what it's worth, here's an attempted diagram where points to the SE are needed:

 

Shaded area is land, so it's not possible to create datapoints to the NW, leaving SE as only option.  

 

Although I have to say, this part of the plan always sounded extremely dodgy to me - I think you'd need to create a lot of datapoints to actually pin down a location like this in practice. 

[curi]

So, for what it's worth, here's an attempted diagram where points to the SE are needed:

 

Shaded area is land, so it's not possible to create datapoints to the NW, leaving SE as only option.  

 

Although I have to say, this part of the plan always sounded extremely dodgy to me - I think you'd need to create a lot of datapoints to actually pin down a location like this in practice. 

 

i think regalia's base is near the center of the city so this doesn't really work. for example, in the comment about southeast it says, "From what I eventually worked out, my points had helped a lot, but we needed more data from the southeastern side of the city before we could really determine Regalia’s center base." this indicates that at the same time he thinks they need southeast data, he also thinks her base is somewhere towards the center of the city.

 

also later in the book it again indicates her base is in the center, so they can't have ever had a situation where their map showed it was near the northwest corner, "On the walls she’d plastered maps of Babilar that showed Newton’s routes. In the center of the city, several pins noted where Tia thought Regalia might be hiding. There were still too many buildings to search effectively without giving away what we were doing, but we were close." so there was no prior point where they'd narrowed it down to the northwest with the center excluded.

 

 

also let's look at the area where they would need data in your scenario. assume they have it narrowed down to a fairly small area. in that diagram it looks like the possible base area is over a mile wide if it's to scale, so try to imagine it a little differently, so the overlapped area is small and towards the north west of the city. now to narrow it down further, they need datapoints in something like a thin circle with around a 5 mile radius around the possible base area. and your point is, a lot of that circle is in the ocean, but it overlaps the city towards the south east. in that case, what i want to point out is, the place where they need data points could then be described something like "a small arc covering 2% of the landmass of the southeast quadrant" (and not touching any other quadrants if you place things carefully enough), not just data points in the southeast in general.  

 

EDIT: here i'm just assuming the city dimensions would work out for what you're saying to be possible. i haven't looked up the actual city size and shape.

 

EDIT 2: not to scale very well but here is kinda a rough concept to show a thin arc. they'd want data points in the orange line i drew on (the rest of that line, not drawn, is in the ocean around the city), which is kinda different than just wanting data from the south east.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2015 by curi

[Andrew C]

So, for what it's worth, here's an attempted diagram where points to the SE are needed:

 

Shaded area is land, so it's not possible to create datapoints to the NW, leaving SE as only option.  

 

Although I have to say, this part of the plan always sounded extremely dodgy to me - I think you'd need to create a lot of datapoints to actually pin down a location like this in practice. 

 

If you know the exact distance, you can do it with a pretty small number of data points, 6 or 7 should be enough. And that's to pinpoint in three dimensions where Regalia is, not just in two.

 

If you do not know the exact distance (i.e. if '5 miles' might be 4.637 miles, or 5.556 miles), you'd need an extra couple of points of reference at least.

 

The main issue, however, is false negatives. If Regalia doesn't show up, it may not be because she is out of range. It may be because she is busy drowning a kitten somewhere or something like that.

[vineyarddawg]

 

i think regalia's base is near the center of the city so this doesn't really work.

 

...

 

Unless I'm mistaken, Regalia's base turned out to be in New Jersey, so all of their theories were useless because their circles (if they were using them like in your example) were too small.  The range of her powers was much larger than 5 miles.

Edited January 14, 2015 by vineyarddawg

[Andrew C]

Yeah the 5 mile limit was an elaborate ploy to protect her real base.

[curi]

Unless I'm mistaken, Regalia's base turned out to be in New Jersey, so all of their theories were useless because their circles (if they were using them like in your example) were too small.  The range of her powers was much larger than 5 miles.

 

i'm west coast so i may not have understood that and missed it. i suck at east coast geography and city layouts.

 

but that sounds like a possible plot issue then because my understanding of Regalia's plan involved her intentionally giving them data to finish narrowing it down so they can go to her trap. i thought the idea of the ending was she gave them a bit more data, then they went where it led them. so that would have to be in the area they'd already narrowed it down to (city center), otherwise they'd have contradicting data and just be confused instead of knowing where to go.

 

 

EDIT: also in any case, that doesn't affect how coherent their analysis earlier in the book was, given what they knew/assumed at the time.

 

EDIT 2: checking book it says:

 

"One showed a map of Babilar with a circle on it. A place out in New Jersey—this house? It seemed likely, as the other screen in front of him flickered, then showed a shot of the room I was in. Regalia dead in her bed. Me, standing with bloody arms, wrapped in a cloth at my waist."

 

i think what it's saying is: her real base was in new jersey out of assumed range. but the fake trap base she led them to with the data points was city center. so that makes sense i think, and doesn't really change things except we could be careful to specify the "possible regalia base area" they were narrowing down was, in actuality, the trapped building she was tricking them into going to, not her REAL base.

Edited January 14, 2015 by curi

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

i'm west coast so i may not have understood that and missed it. i suck at east coast geography and city layouts.

 

but that sounds like a possible plot issue then because my understanding of Regalia's plan involved her intentionally giving them data to finish narrowing it down so they can go to her trap. i thought the idea of the ending was she gave them a bit more data, then they went where it led them. so that would have to be in the area they'd already narrowed it down to (city center), otherwise they'd have contradicting data and just be confused instead of knowing where to go.

 

 

EDIT: also in any case, that doesn't affect how coherent their analysis earlier in the book was, given what they knew/assumed at the time.

That is correct, except the building they were led to had the bomb. Regalia was in a separate location entirely.

[vineyarddawg]

i'm west coast so i may not have understood that and missed it. i suck at east coast geography and city layouts.

 

but that sounds like a possible plot issue then because my understanding of Regalia's plan involved her intentionally giving them data to finish narrowing it down so they can go to her trap. i thought the idea of the ending was she gave them a bit more data, then they went where it led them. so that would have to be in the area they'd already narrowed it down to (city center), otherwise they'd have contradicting data and just be confused instead of knowing where to go.

 

 

EDIT: also in any case, that doesn't affect how coherent their analysis earlier in the book was, given what they knew/assumed at the time.

 

EDIT 2: checking book it says:

 

"One showed a map of Babilar with a circle on it. A place out in New Jersey—this house? It seemed likely, as the other screen in front of him flickered, then showed a shot of the room I was in. Regalia dead in her bed. Me, standing with bloody arms, wrapped in a cloth at my waist."

 

i think what it's saying is: her real base was in new jersey out of assumed range. but the fake trap base she led them to with the data points was city center. so that makes sense i think, and doesn't really change things except we could be careful to specify the "possible regalia base area" they were narrowing down was, in actuality, the trapped building she was tricking them into going to, not her REAL base.

 

I think that's pretty much correct.  She was intentionally leading them to the "fake base" at which they ended up.

 

As far as the plot angle, her intent all along was not for Prof to kill her (as Prof assumed), but it was for Prof to be led to the Oblito-bomb, be consumed by corruption when dispensing of the Oblito-bomb, and then come to her side where he would succeed her when she inevitably died from cancer.

Edited January 14, 2015 by vineyarddawg

[Voidus]

 

i think regalia's base is near the center of the city so this doesn't really work. for example, in the comment about southeast it says, "From what I eventually worked out, my points had helped a lot, but we needed more data from the southeastern side of the city before we could really determine Regalia’s center base." this indicates that at the same time he thinks they need southeast data, he also thinks her base is somewhere towards the center of the city.

 

also later in the book it again indicates her base is in the center, so they can't have ever had a situation where their map showed it was near the northwest corner, "On the walls she’d plastered maps of Babilar that showed Newton’s routes. In the center of the city, several pins noted where Tia thought Regalia might be hiding. There were still too many buildings to search effectively without giving away what we were doing, but we were close." so there was no prior point where they'd narrowed it down to the northwest with the center excluded.

 

 

also let's look at the area where they would need data in your scenario. assume they have it narrowed down to a fairly small area. in that diagram it looks like the possible base area is over a mile wide if it's to scale, so try to imagine it a little differently, so the overlapped area is small and towards the north west of the city. now to narrow it down further, they need datapoints in something like a thin circle with around a 5 mile radius around the possible base area. and your point is, a lot of that circle is in the ocean, but it overlaps the city towards the south east. in that case, what i want to point out is, the place where they need data points could then be described something like "a small arc covering 2% of the landmass of the southeast quadrant" (and not touching any other quadrants if you place things carefully enough), not just data points in the southeast in general.  

 

EDIT: here i'm just assuming the city dimensions would work out for what you're saying to be possible. i haven't looked up the actual city size and shape.

 

EDIT 2: not to scale very well but here is kinda a rough concept to show a thin arc. they'd want data points in the orange line i drew on (the rest of that line, not drawn, is in the ocean around the city), which is kinda different than just wanting data from the south east.

 

 

 

Even if the base was near the city centre a data point at the far Northern side of the city could be in range still, this was what I kept trying to point out. In the shown diagram the top-left circle (For the sake of argument I'll call it NW) would still reach very nearly to the centre of the city, even having a data point at the extreme edge of the city they need a point in the opposite direction to narrow down the effective possible area.

If you cut manhattan into three parts, north, south and centre then even appearing at the extreme north or south end of the city the possible area Regalia is in is still the top or bottom two-thirds, you need data points from both directions in this case to ascertain her position.

[curi]

btw David's grape catapult idea has problems too
 

“No, listen,” I said. “If you had a grape catapult, and it was good at lobbing grapes, but sometimes lobbed them different distances, you could leave it firing over a long period of time. And maybe put it on some sort of spinner. Then, when you came back, even if someone had stolen the catapult you’d be able to tell where it was located—by the pattern of grapes it launched. It’s the same here. Only Regalia’s projections are the grapes, and her base is the catapult!”

the catapult scenario has the appearances (grapes) in random locations, but Regalia appearances aren't at random places in the city with equal probability. another way the catapult comparison is wrong is that with the catapult the idea is to say where the catapult was located with a probability of being right (unless you know the exact max range and have some very perfectly places grapes and then the rest of the shots don't matter), whereas the regalia search method has (given the premises) a guarantee. the catapult comparison also kinda suggests all the datapoints are relevant, but many of them aren't actually.

 

the idea is kinda like the catapult forms a circle shape (on average longrun) and then it was located at the center of that circle. that isn't how the regalia search method works. and the part about the catapult being able to shoot different distances isn't helpful.

Edited January 14, 2015 by curi

[RShara she/her]

Well, David does suck at metaphors and similes

[RShara she/her]

Manhattan stretches roughly NE to SW in a long oval. I don't know that it's even 3 miles wide so it seems like they'd need to be looking outside of the island as well?
Google map
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Manhattan,+New+York,+NY/@40.7428061,-74.0121463,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c2588f046ee661:0xa0b3281fcecc08c">https://www.google.com/maps/place/Manhattan,+New+York,+NY/@40.7428061,-74.0121463,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c2588f046ee661:0xa0b3281fcecc08c

Oops! After a discussion with curi and Tempus, we realized, since her range is (supposedly) 5 miles, that means those circles need to be 10 miles in diameter. That more than encompasses the entire island of Manhattan, so really there's no part of the island she can't reach, no matter where she is on it. They need datapoints from outside the city to really make any headway!

 

Edited January 14, 2015 by RShara

[Chaos he/him]

do you realize your post is itself aggressive to me? e.g. you say i "really need" to do an order you've just given me. and you attack me as "so aggressive". that's aggressive. and you did this with a 100% off topic post, not even trying to address the thread topics, just ignoring them.

Okay.

You need to calm down.

My job on here is to keep members in line. I do not seek to agitate or anger you.

All I seek is that you take care in your word choice. By being courteous you will not have a great many people downvote you, and I take downvoting very seriously as a reflection of how the community feels about a post. And go take a look at them. Can you be more courteous? Go have a drink of water, cool down a bit, and tell me that you genuinely think they were not overly aggressive. You can tone them down. And in courteous posts, what do you know? You get upvotes. It really is that simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the points you make, but how you make them. And my official warning to you is that if you cannot be kind and courteous to other people here--not just moderators and admins, but each and every member--then, frankly, you are not welcome here.

I look forward to seeing you post in a mature matter and hope to see many intelligent, well thought-out posts from you for a long time to come.

But first, be kind to others.

EDIT: I would also like to inform you of the Multiquote feature, which allows you to respond to multiple people at the same time. I strongly encourage you to use this and not double post. Thank you.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Chaos
Information on Multiquote