My Idea on why the Parshendi killed Gavilar

[CabbageHead he/him]

Ehhh, I don't think so. I think that the fact that Dalinar was saying and making similar sounds to Parshendi would be something that Adolin would notice and be very frightened by. No, I think that the Parshendi either don't speak the Dawnchant, or their language is as far away from the Dawnchant as English is from Latin.

My example of English spoken by a Glaswegian and a Pakistani still stands; they could say exactly the same thing and sound absolutely nothing alike. Familiarity with a language trains the ear to find patterns where others only hear noise. If someone did not speak English or any similar language, they would not know that the same words were being said. I have met many pairs of people who were mutually incomprehensible, all speaking english, all of whom I could understand.

Edit: given the nature of this conversation,

video is now getting linked Edited September 13, 2012 by CabbageHead

[Observer]

My example of English spoken by a Glaswegian and a Pakistani still stands; they could say exactly the same thing and sound absolutely nothing alike. Familiarity with a language trains the ear to find patterns where others only hear noise. If someone did not speak English or any similar language, they would not know that the same words were being said. I have met many pairs of people who were mutually incomprehensible, all speaking english, all of whom I could understand.

Thank you for that. I find myself with an increasingly difficult time getting my ideas across >_>

[Sodalis she/her]

I like the overall theory provided here, it sounds plausible and feels well thought over. I like the idea of the Parshendi being splinters of honor which gives them the seemingly unnatural powers - ie. the skin-grown armor and heightened physical ability.

A question I have links to the honorspren and how they are connected to honor, supposedly being splinters of honor itself. So if Sylphrena is an honorspren, a splinter of honor... does that make the Parshendi a kind of spren too? Assuming we're running with the theory of honorspren being splinters of honor of course.

[Aethling he/him]

Not sure I would go so far as to say splinters. I would have no problem going with Odium or Honor changed them somehow. We already have multiple examples of that in the Cosmere.

[Observer]

What if Spren are splinters of Cultivation, and only a few of them are Honor-related, perhaps as a mixture meant to "Cultivate" honor? From Dalinar's visions I've gathered that Honorspren aren't the only kinds that can bond, and I do like the idea of Parshendi having small bits of honor.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Observer

[dionysus]

I can't accept that the Parshendi are splinters of Honor. "Journey before Destination" is a core tenant of Honor. The ends never justify the means in the morality system of Honor. Expediency is anathema to honor. Sadeas is the prime example of this. Good intentions, horrible methods.

The way they assassinated Gavilor is to me quite clearly a hugely dishonorable act. They want Shen to kill innocents, and they do it right after signing some peace agreement with Gavilar. Breaking their word, killing innocents, unprovoked murder, these are not actions of honor. Like I said before, the nature of Honor forbids saving the world through any means necessary.

Everything on Roshar is influenced by Honor, just as surely as Cultivation and Odium have their hands in things. I agree the Parshendi are probably not tools of Odium or evil, but I also can't see them as agents of Honor because the most signficant thing they do so far in Stormlight Archive is the most dishonorable thing in the book, with the exception of Taravingian and his murder of the sick and poor under the guise of benevolence.

Even if Gavilar was doing something really bad unwittingly, say with that black stone, the Honorable thing to do would be to confront him and demand change.

Edited September 14, 2012 by dionysus

[Observer]

And, like any good thoery, we get it shot down in moments. Allow me to attempt to salvage the thread

What if Gavilar was going something similar to Taravingian in badness, with no hope of change? The Parshendi can't exactly walk in and tell him to stop, now can they? Unfortunately, they only have pieces of honor. The splinters aren't enough to completely destroy their personality, only enough to tilt them towards honorable intentions. They used Szeth to kill Gavilar, but for some reason totally unexplained and similar to Taravingian's purposes, they ask him to make it big and messy. Why? To get them to go to war on the Shattered Plains. Probably in hopes of getting all the armies in one place, up and ready for the final Desolation. Once it came, self-preservation would bring the ten armies together, possibly even driving them to ally with the parshendi in the event that they're not the voidbringers.

How's that sound?

[Lightflame he/him]

I can't accept that the Parshendi are splinters of Honor. "Journey before Destination" is a core tenant of Honor. The ends never justify the means in the morality system of Honor. Expediency is anathema to honor. Sadeas is the prime example of this. Good intentions, horrible methods.The way they assassinated Gavilor is to me quite clearly a hugely dishonorable act. They want Shen to kill innocents, and they do it right after signing some peace agreement with Gavilar. Breaking their word, killing innocents, unprovoked murder, these are not actions of honor. Like I said before, the nature of Honor forbids saving the world through any means necessary.Everything on Roshar is influenced by Honor, just as surely as Cultivation and Odium have their hands in things. I agree the Parshendi are probably not tools of Odium or evil, but I also can't see them as agents of Honor because the most signficant thing they do so far in Stormlight Archive is the most dishonorable thing in the book, with the exception of Taravingian and his murder of the sick and poor under the guise of benevolence. Even if Gavilar was doing something really bad unwittingly, say with that black stone, the Honorable thing to do would be to confront him and demand change.

And you essentially win here. 1+ rep for you. The Parshendi can't have full Honor, but they still probably have something. (I'm still going for "Unite Them" as why they killed Gavilar.)

And, like any good thoery, we get it shot down in moments. Allow me to attempt to salvage the thread :PWhat if Gavilar was going something similar to Taravingian in badness, with no hope of change? The Parshendi can't exactly walk in and tell him to stop, now can they? Unfortunately, they only have pieces of honor. The splinters aren't enough to completely destroy their personality, only enough to tilt them towards honorable intentions. They used Szeth to kill Gavilar, but for some reason totally unexplained and similar to Taravingian's purposes, they ask him to make it big and messy. Why? To get them to go to war on the Shattered Plains. Probably in hopes of getting all the armies in one place, up and ready for the final Desolation. Once it came, self-preservation would bring the ten armies together, possibly even driving them to ally with the parshendi in the event that they're not the voidbringers.How's that sound?

That sounds pretty good. I'll give you a 1+ as well. However, I came up with my own variant.

Honor is confirmed to be Splintered (see 27 here), although I'm not sure if I was right about the Parshendi being his Splinters. Since the Parshendi have some sort of Hive Mind, then a few of them could have obtained Splinters, which is influencing all of them. What separates them from the Parshmen would still be unknown, but their honourable behaviour would be explained. Who knows where the rest of the Splinters went? Maybe Batman took them. (Or you could be right.)

[Observer]

I assumed that the Parshendi were holders of splinters, not splinters themselves. The rest of the pieces could have become spren, or been directed by Odium to waste power in highstorms (You clever monster). It's also possible that the Parshendi have figured out a way to harvest the Honor splinters, and are trying to piece them together. When one of their kind dies, they leave it be so it can finish expelling Honor pieces back out into the world, where they can once more be collected by the Parshendi (Possibly in a place similar to the Well or the Pits.)

Kind of farfethced, but I do like the idea of somebody slowly gathering the bits of Honor via shardpool.

[Lightflame he/him]

I assumed that the Parshendi were holders of splinters, not splinters themselves. The rest of the pieces could have become spren, or been directed by Odium to waste power in highstorms (You clever monster). It's also possible that the Parshendi have figured out a way to harvest the Honor splinters, and are trying to piece them together. When one of their kind dies, they leave it be so it can finish expelling Honor pieces back out into the world, where they can once more be collected by the Parshendi (Possibly in a place similar to the Well or the Pits.)

Kind of farfethced, but I do like the idea of somebody slowly gathering the bits of Honor via shardpool.

That is an incredibly awesome thought, but the Parshmen have the same problem with touching the dead. Unless the Parshmen are somehow in tune with the Parshendi, that probably isn't it.

[Observer]

That is an incredibly awesome thought, but the Parshmen have the same problem with touching the dead. Unless the Parshmen are somehow in tune with the Parshendi, that probably isn't it.

You forget their strange telepathy. For all we know, the Parshendi and the Parshmen are like Seons in a sense, capable of communication, but too different in mindset to work together beyond a few emotions and impressions. The Parshendi can send the impression of "No touch corpse", but, like an elantrianified seon, they can't do much beyond that.

[dionysus]

I'll try to clarify and slightly change my previous post "shooting" down the theory.

I think it is quite possible that splinters of Honor are interacting with the Parshendi. They are quite honorable in a lot of ways. It's purely speculative how this interaction would occur at this point. But I don't find it far fetched to think that the Parshendi are parshmen with splinters of honor though still also subject to the influence of Cultivation and Odium.

What I can't agree with is that Honor is behind the assassination and war. That specific act is dishonorable, and in Honor's morality the ends never justify the means.

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

What is this "HonorShard" and "Shardholder" you speak of? It isn't in the book, so I'm starting to wonder if there is another source of information...

And also what are all of these "Splinters"? Are they like the Shardblades, or parts of this "HonorShard" thing or what? Or are they a race created by somebody/something.

I am really and truly confused.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Stroniax

[Voidus]

What is this "HonorShard" and "Shardholder" you speak of? It isn't in the book, so I'm starting to wonder if there is another source of information...

And also what are all of these "Splinters"? Are they like the Shardblades, or parts of this "HonorShard" thing or what? Or are they a race created by somebody/something.

I am really and truly confused.

This is all cosmere information, do you know about the cosmere?

[dionysus]

What is this "HonorShard" and "Shardholder" you speak of? It isn't in the book, so I'm starting to wonder if there is another source of information...

And also what are all of these "Splinters"? Are they like the Shardblades, or parts of this "HonorShard" thing or what? Or are they a race created by somebody/something.

I am really and truly confused.

There is a meta story that spans most of Sanderson's works including the Mistborn trilogy, Elantris, Warbreaker, and Allow of Law. There is also a metaphysical understanding of the magic systems/way the worlds work that is common to all his books.

For more information, go to http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/491-cosmere-101/

[Straff Venture he/him]

What is this "HonorShard" and "Shardholder" you speak of? It isn't in the book, so I'm starting to wonder if there is another source of information...

And also what are all of these "Splinters"? Are they like the Shardblades, or parts of this "HonorShard" thing or what? Or are they a race created by somebody/something.

I am really and truly confused.

I've seen you have been confused on other threads too, so have a look at the coppermind (its a wiki for brandon's books), it should help you learn about the shards and other things

[Cayden]

I think the Parshendi have been modified somehow, most likely by a Herald or two. They apparently embellish some of their weapons with figures in plate, which is likely a Herald. So yes I think they are of honor to a degree, perhaps to the same degree as the Alethi.

To me there are many reasons why they would want to kill Galivar, I think there are some deep dark secrets about that man which have not been uncovered. But more than that, by The Parshendi sparking off a war they show in a way that Parshmen can be dangerous. You would really think that people other than Jasnah have seen the relationship.

It doesnt matter if the Parshmen are the Voidbringers or not, the fact that one group is capable of violence should show that Parshmen are as well.

I think the Parshmen are the creations of Cultivation, and because of that, they can be cultivated further, whether by Honor or Odium. When Honor and Cultivation merge in them you get the Parshendi... When Cultivation and Odium merge.. you get Odiums foot soldiers known as the Voidbringers. Perfect Warriors who allow Hatred to fill them completely.

[Observer]

I think the Parshendi have been modified somehow, most likely by a Herald or two. They apparently embellish some of their weapons with figures in plate, which is likely a Herald. So yes I think they are of honor to a degree, perhaps to the same degree as the Alethi.

To me there are many reasons why they would want to kill Galivar, I think there are some deep dark secrets about that man which have not been uncovered. But more than that, by The Parshendi sparking off a war they show in a way that Parshmen can be dangerous. You would really think that people other than Jasnah have seen the relationship.

It doesnt matter if the Parshmen are the Voidbringers or not, the fact that one group is capable of violence should show that Parshmen are as well.

I think the Parshmen are the creations of Cultivation, and because of that, they can be cultivated further, whether by Honor or Odium. When Honor and Cultivation merge in them you get the Parshendi... When Cultivation and Odium merge.. you get Odiums foot soldiers known as the Voidbringers. Perfect Warriors who allow Hatred to fill them completely.

I've heard that theory before, but not quite as well put as that. Well done.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

I was wondering where that came from...

Think of it like so: This is going to be a 10 book epic. There is almost no way Brandon would play his hand and tell us who the big baddies are so early on. I'm guessing the Parshendi had something to do with the Voidbringers, but I don't think they really are them.

I've seen this argument quite a lot, and honestly, I don't buy it.

Brandon will introduce plenty of new puzzles and twists for us to be amazed by over the course of the series. There is already a wealth of them, in just the first book. Revealing one of them at the end of a book is fine in my estimation--personally, I hadn't seen it, and the reveal took me by surprise.

In fact, this discussion may be the entire point: revealing the truth of the Voidbringers so early could be designed to make us question whether or not it is the truth. (Personally, I believe that it is... but I also believe that we have not gotten the most pertinent details yet. For instance, I doubt the Voidbringers are 'the big baddies', as you put it.)

[happyman he/him]

Once again, I feel compelled to mention that I believe two things:

(1) Jasnah's revelation is, for some value of the word, correct.

(2) We and they have absolutely no idea why it is really important.

This, I think, would keep the mystery going without need for anything else.