Aleksiel Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Minor Warbreaker spoilers: I don't think the Heralds return like Returned. The Heralds keep their memories - teaching mankind what was forgotten (again; it must get really tiring ). The Heralds are able to form and keep new memories like Ishi's Knights (who couldn't have been around during the first Desolation); remember Damnation, and previous Desolations (Kalak in WoK prelude) but not Lightsong style (some random scenes that don't make much sense). 3. There is something curious going on with Herald's clothing. Jezrien is still wearing the same robes hundreds or thousands of years into the Oathpact. They are just burnt and bloodied, but still in good shape, not what you would expect from thousands of years of use. Compare to Taln's clothing at the Epilogue: "his clothing nothing more than a ragged sack-like length of cloth wrapping his waist." Can the Heralds not change clothing? Does the clothing they show up in denote them as Heralds, because it is completely different than the clothing of the people of Roshar in previous desolations (ragged tanned skins or leathers)? Would this mean that their clothing may not suffer damage in between Desolations in the place they go (do they have clothes they can summon from the cognitive) Why then is Taln in a sack-like cloth? Where is his warrior-like clothing/armour? We aren't sure if that truly was Jezrien and although the cloths are probably described in the same way (I'll take your word for it; I don't remember), it's highly unlikely the very same clothes survived ~4500; more like Jezrien's fashion preferences didn't change for millenniums. We have no idea what the Heralds re-appear wearing when they come back to Roshar, so may be might-be-Taln just took the first clothes he came across or something. 4.Hoid calls Taln "confused, unfortunate friend". If the Heralds are suffering from the reverse attributes that they had, and Ishar is the Herald of Luck, could Hoid be referencing him here as the unfortunate friend? Of course, Taln could also be unfortunate in that he might be too late to save Roshar. But Hoid always uses words and phrases with multiple meaning so it cannot be discounted. 5.Nalan is still chasing surgebinders (if we take the WoR events in sequence) after the Listeners bond the stormspren, and after Taln shows up. There is WoB i believe that says the Heralds would know when a desolation would return based on the Voidbringers returning, and thus would know that Taln had returned. Yet all Nalan, at the end of WoR wants to do is visit the Shin so that they can bring justice to them. Nothing about the Desolations returning or the world coming to an end. He also does not agree with Szeth when he speaks of the Voidbringers having returned. None of the other Heralds show up to find Taln. Ishar is supposed to be significantly older or at least he looks like an old man according to Vorinism, whereas Taln and Kalak are younger looking. Szeth recognized Nalan, so unless the Shin have some different pictures of the Heralds, it's probably a fairly reliable source to judge basic appearance. Which leads to the interesting question - if the Vorin portraits of the Heralds are credible, why didn't anyone comment on might-be-Taln to resemble Taln's image? 5.Nalan is still chasing surgebinders (if we take the WoR events in sequence) after the Listeners bond the stormspren, and after Taln shows up. There is WoB i believe that says the Heralds would know when a desolation would return based on the Voidbringers returning, and thus would know that Taln had returned. Yet all Nalan, at the end of WoR wants to do is visit the Shin so that they can bring justice to them. Nothing about the Desolations returning or the world coming to an end. He also does not agree with Szeth when he speaks of the Voidbringers having returned. None of the other Heralds show up to find Taln. He wasn't chasing surgebinders after the Everstorm was summoned, he went for Szeth. Nalan might not be aware of Taln presence in the warcamps. I imagine no Herald would want to visit Taln at least out of guilt - they abandoned him alone in Damnation (or plotted something against him; Kalak only knows what Jezrien said and we saw Kaladin justifying lying on several occasions). And if I was Taln, I wouldn't be particularly glad to see them either. So no hugging and forgiveness so soon. Didn't Nalan basically agree Szeth was right and unjustly made Truthless? If the reason for making Szeth Truthless was his belief the Voidbringers will return, then Nale basically confirmed it. May be they had no reason to talk about Voidbringers and Desolations using these terms, because they were on the same page and we missed it, because we don't know Szeth's story like Nalan does. Edited February 17, 2015 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Which leads to the interesting question - if the Vorin portraits of the Heralds are credible, why didn't anyone comment on might-be-Taln to resemble Taln's image? I think we can reliably say they're not accurate. They might be in broad strokes, but Nalan's defining feature appears to be a birthmark in the shape of a crescent on his right cheek, which his portrait does not show (same with the Surgebinding chart - he's at the upper middle right, the order just below the blue Windrunners). Unless either does show a crescent. I've looked closely, but I may be blind. I don't see one. I zoomed in and everything. Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think we can reliably say they're not accurate. They might be in broad strokes, but Nalan's defining feature appears to be a birthmark in the shape of a crescent on his right cheek, which his portrait does not show (same with the Surgebinding chart - he's at the upper middle right, the order just below the blue Windrunners). Unless either does show a crescent. I've looked closely, but I may be blind. I don't see one. I zoomed in and everything. I think Kalak has a birthmark on his cheek if you look closely on the Surgebinding chart. Vorinism got the two Heralds reversed? Nevertheless, it's interesting Szeth recognized Nale, although he probably believed the Heralds existed in the first place, so he easily made the connection when justice was mentioned. Or may be the Shin have more accurate portraits since they also keep the Honorblades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Or Nale came and grabbed his blade recently enough for people to know what he looked like? We know for sure one blade was reclaimed right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaarZel Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Minor Warbreaker spoilers: I don't think the Heralds return like Returned. The Heralds keep their memories - teaching mankind what was forgotten (again; it must get really tiring ). The Heralds are able to form and keep new memories like Ishi's Knights (who couldn't have been around during the first Desolation); remember Damnation, and previous Desolations (Kalak in WoK prelude) but not Lightsong style (some random scenes that don't make much sense). They would obviously get those memories once fully connected with the sword. The new memories become tied with the sword and bonded to the next person each Desolation. I think Kalak has a birthmark on his cheek if you look closely on the Surgebinding chart. Vorinism got the two Heralds reversed? Or maybe Nalan isn't Nalan after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Or maybe Nalan isn't Nalan after all... Yeah, may be Kalak has identity crisis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPark317 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I've been perusing threads about Taln (who he is, where his Honorblade is, etc.) and after reading about the quote mentioned on previous pages concerning "The Gift and Words... Now his." I was curious what "The Gift" may be. Another theory floating around suggests Taln may have actually been on Roshar for 6-7 years and had contacted Shin folk, namely Szeth thus starting his belief in what caused his punishment. If the timing theory is true, and Taln has been around for awhile, what if he encountered Gavilar, and the black sphere he found is The Gift? I'm aware of the WoB that states the light in the sphere is a "different" light, likely some sort of void-light, but perhaps it is some bit of Odium's investiture stolen by Taln as he was returned to Roshar for this Desolation? Maybe every Desolation the Heralds returned with something similar? I couldn't begin to imagine what the use of it could be for if this is the case, I just thought it may be interesting. This is all wildly speculative, but it intrigued me when I thought about it and I figured it may provoke some interesting conversation. Edited February 17, 2015 by JPark317 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) We aren't sure if that truly was Jezrien and although the cloths are probably described in the same way (I'll take your word for it; I don't remember), it's highly unlikely the very same clothes survived ~4500; more like Jezrien's fashion preferences didn't change for millenniums. We have no idea what the Heralds re-appear wearing when they come back to Roshar, so may be might-be-Taln just took the first clothes he came across or something. Based on the text in the Prelude of TWoK, His short black beard was neatly trimmed, his once fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood. it just seems to me that it may be his original clothing. If they do show up naked or semi-naked, like Taln, what kind of impression would they make on Rosharians? But if they show up with clothing like Jezrien's fine regal clothing, then they can command attention. As to the point if it was Jezrien, we have to assume that it is. There isn't anything else to place doubt on the accuracy of the Prelude...yet. Ishar is supposed to be significantly older or at least he looks like an old man according to Vorinism, whereas Taln and Kalak are younger looking. Szeth recognized Nalan, so unless the Shin have some different pictures of the Heralds, it's probably a fairly reliable source to judge basic appearance. Remember, that Kalak describes Jezrien as a man that looks barely in his thirties. Jezrien, who has a daughter Herald, Shallash that has to at least be in her early twenties. I think that Herald appearance has nothing to do with ages. Jezrien's Vorin depiction is certainly not one of a 30 year old but of someone older. What if the Heralds have an ideal age, or an ideal look, like the Returned do in Warbreaker? Not saying they are Returned but something is going on with them and their aging and appearance, and we can't discount anything at this point. To the 2nd point, Szeth recognizes Nalan from the crescent shaped mark on his face. WoR, pg 1063 hardcover, "That Crescent...He recognized it didn't he?" This means that yes, the Shin have better and different representations of the Heralds. Thus Vorinism's pictures are not wholly accurate. That may be why Taln has not been recognized. Even Shallan, who is very devout, or so she claims, stands beside him and doesnot recognize neither his face nor his physique. He wasn't chasing surgebinders after the Everstorm was summoned, he went for Szeth. What I meant is that right after Eshonai bonds the Stormspren, Pattern and Syl both go crazy, yet Nale is still hunting Lift at that point. He and the other Heralds should know that the Voidbringers have returned (WoB confirms this), yet he still insists on killing Lift because she threatens to bring back the Desolation. Which can either mean that Nale is crazy (the Desolation is on it's way already), or Stormspren/Stormform are not The Voidbringers proper (although they are of Odium to be sure). Didn't Nalan basically agree Szeth was right and unjustly made Truthless? If the reason for making Szeth Truthless was his belief the Voidbringers will return, then Nale basically confirmed it. May be they had no reason to talk about Voidbringers and Desolations using these terms, because they were on the same page and we missed it, because we don't know Szeth's story like Nalan does. You are correct. Just went and re-read that, and he does say so albeit not explicitly. Edited February 18, 2015 by Kelek's Breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 To the 2nd point, Szeth recognizes Nalan from the crescent shaped mark on his face. Szeth saw Nalan during his assassination of Gavilar, which is likely why he recognizes the crescent mark. I don't believe it points to the Shin having better art, though it might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Szeth saw Nalan during his assassination of Gavilar, which is likely why he recognizes the crescent mark. I don't believe it points to the Shin having better art, though it might. I kind of think that they do because in TWoK, he sees him from some distance and just notices "a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek". Szeth couldn't make out the exact shape. So either they have better art/depictions, or their verbal lore is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I kind of think that they do because in TWoK, he sees him from some distance and just notices "a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek". Szeth couldn't make out the exact shape. So either they have better art/depictions, or their verbal lore is better. Hm, you're right. It is a sort of vague description. I'm not entirely convinced, because maybe Szeth saw Nalan several times before the prologue of WoK started, but I see your theory as being much more likely now. Edited February 18, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Based on the text in the Prelude of TWoK, it just seems to me that it may be his original clothing. If they do show up naked or semi-naked, like Taln, what kind of impression would they make on Rosharians? But if they show up with clothing like Jezrien's fine regal clothing, then they can command attention. As to the point if it was Jezrien, we have to assume that it is. There isn't anything else to place doubt on the accuracy of the Prelude...yet. What, he's wearing some sort of Shardclothes that last for over four millenniums? And he never changed his clothes? They are described similarly, but I'm not buying it's the very same piece of clothing. Remember, that Kalak describes Jezrien as a man that looks barely in his thirties. Jezrien, who has a daughter Herald, Shallash that has to at least be in her early twenties. I think that Herald appearance has nothing to do with ages. Jezrien's Vorin depiction is certainly not one of a 30 year old but of someone older. What if the Heralds have an ideal age, or an ideal look, like the Returned do in Warbreaker? Not saying they are Returned but something is going on with them and their aging and appearance, and we can't discount anything at this point. May be Kalak has different take on what a 30 year old man looks, we don't know if the Heralds are Rosharian. Granted, in-world portraits from thousands of years ago are to be viewed with a certain dose of skepticism. To the 2nd point, Szeth recognizes Nalan from the crescent shaped mark on his face. This means that yes, the Shin have better and different representations of the Heralds. Thus Vorinism's pictures are not wholly accurate. That may be why Taln has not been recognized. Even Shallan, who is very devout, or so she claims, stands beside him and doesnot recognize neither his face nor his physique. You said it yourself that Vorin image of the Jezrien is not how Kalak described him, so you shouldn't expect Taln to look much like Vorin Taln if you don't trust Vorin portraits of the Heralds. May be Shin don't have better descriptions, Szeth has visited the tower in Urithiru long before Dalinar found it, so he could have seen a portrait of Nale there. However, are the images of the Heralds at the beginning of each chapter made by the Vorin church? Who created the KR chart we have in WoK? I assumed that's the Vorin take on the Heralds, but I can't find textual evidence for this now. What I meant is that right after Eshonai bonds the Stormspren, Pattern and Syl both go crazy, yet Nale is still hunting Lift at that point. He and the other Heralds should know that the Voidbringers have returned (WoB confirms this), yet he still insists on killing Lift because she threatens to bring back the Desolation. Which can either mean that Nale is crazy (the Desolation is on it's way already), or Stormspren/Stormform are not The Voidbringers proper (although they are of Odium to be sure). I think you're wrong. When Dalinar writes about the Everstorm, Gawx is already a Prime, so chasing Lift was likely before recruiting Szeth. Nale told him they'll be going to Shinovar and Szeth wasn't present when Lift robbed the palace. I checked the timeline, but Lift's interlude isn't listed, however after WoR climax there are only the beginning of Navani's journal and Dalinar becoming a Bondsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 ... Shardclothes ... Never thought of Shardclothes. Jezrien would never have to iron his robes, that's for sure. Who knows? However, are the images of the Heralds at the beginning of each chapter made by the Vorin church? Who created the KR chart we have in WoK? I assumed that's the Vorin take on the Heralds, but I can't find textual evidence for this now. I think they are the Vorin depictions, but someone better informed could help out on this one? May be Shin don't have better descriptions, Szeth has visited the tower in Urithiru long before Dalinar found it, so he could have seen a portrait of Nale there. That's right, forgot he has walked inside Urithiru way before anyone else in modern times. That is the most likely explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper he/him Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Never thought of Shardclothes. Jezrien would never have to iron his robes, that's for sure. Who knows? Yeah...I'm sure that's what the advertisements would say. I can see it now. *Jezrien walks toward the camera* "With our new special spren/fabric blend, you'll never iron out those Hateful wrinkles again! Show Odium who's boss with the new Shardclothes!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek's Breath he/him Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Yeah...I'm sure that's what the advertisements would say. I can see it now. *Jezrien walks toward the camera* "With our new special spren/fabric blend, you'll never iron out those Hateful wrinkles again! Show Odium who's boss with the new Shardclothes!" And your colours will stay vibrant even if you wash in crem filled water. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper he/him Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 They're so durable that you can just hang them out in a highstorm to wash them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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