Question on the Heralds

[Nisana she/her]

There's something I'd like to know about the Heralds and that maybe has been explained somewhere: is there any explanation of why the Heralds have to suffer between the desolations and where they go in the "hell"like place of torture?

 

(sorry if you have already answered this questions, I didn't find them)

[Bort he/him]

Greetings Cosmere Kitty.

 

I'm not sure if your question has ever properly been answered, although I think it is pretty safe to assume it has something to do with the Oathpact.

 

As for where... current theory is they go to Braize, another planet in the same system as Roshar, which is also affectionately nicknamed 'Damnation' and is probably the home to Odium.

[natc]

I do believe we are set for scenes in Braize/Damnation somewhere down the line, yes?

Now I wonder what the Tranquiline Halls were.

[Bort he/him]

I don't doubt it. Maybe not in the first 5 books, but certainly in the second series.

 

Wasn't something said about there being another planet in the Greater Roshar system? There is a thread around here somewhere of someone trying to draw out starcharts, and they have three planets in Roshar. Maybe the third planet is the Tranquiline Halls.

[Argent he/him]

I don't doubt it. Maybe not in the first 5 books, but certainly in the second series.

 

Wasn't something said about there being another planet in the Greater Roshar system? There is a thread around here somewhere of someone trying to draw out starcharts, and they have three planets in Roshar. Maybe the third planet is the Tranquiline Halls.

 

It, unfortunately, is not. It's Ashyn, the planet where The Silence Divine (a.k.a. "diseases give you superpowers") takes place.

 

EDIT: I should clarify that even though Ashyn is not the Tranquiline Halls (or at least I would be very surprised if it were), the Halls could still be a real place. One theory is that Braize did a 180-flip - from the heavenly Tranquiline Halls to the hellish Damnation. Another is that the Halls are simply not in Greater Roshar at all. A third is that they are real, just not in the physical realm. I am sure there are more.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Argent

[Bort he/him]

I see, thanks Argent.

 

Do we know if Brandon will ever publish all of his Cosmere short stories in one volume?

[Argent he/him]

He hasn't spoken of any plans like that. I find it more likely that we will start seeing new edition of his novels that include related short stories (e.g. Elantris + The Emperor's Soul in one volume, which is something he wanted to do for Elantris' tenth anniversary).

[hoser he/him]

Answering "why" the heralds have to suffer.  Argent mentioned the speculation that the Tranquilline Halls became Braize/Damnation. 

 

{Speculation}

Imagine that the Oathpact resurrected you to a decent place.  The Heralds deal would be that they have to serve, but they get cool swords and powers and come back to life forever.  It wouldn't be too bad.  When the place you come back to life at gets controlled by the epitome of hate with godlike powers that you have continually defeated, you will suffer. 

{/Speculation}

Edited January 20, 2015 by hoser

[Edgedancer he/him]

There's something I'd like to know about the Heralds and that maybe has been explained somewhere: is there any explanation of why the Heralds have to suffer between the desolations and where they go in the "hell"like place of torture?

 

(sorry if you have already answered this questions, I didn't find them)

From what I gathered it´s actually the other way around. Desolations happen when the Heralds take a "break" from their torture in Damnation. After the last one only Taln returned to Damnation, so it has been so long since the last Desolation because he´s storming badchull and didn´t give up.

 

Edit: I think I found the quote.

 

Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.

A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

Q:  So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

A:  They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Kipper he/him]

I don't doubt it. Maybe not in the first 5 books, but certainly in the second series.

 

Wasn't something said about there being another planet in the Greater Roshar system? There is a thread around here somewhere of someone trying to draw out starcharts, and they have three planets in Roshar. Maybe the third planet is the Tranquiline Halls.

Here's this quote from Brandon:

 

 

KHYRINDOR

Shards can talk to dead people. Are the Tranquiline Halls where everyone in the cosmere goes when they die? Or does each world have its own heaven.

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different.

Edited January 20, 2015 by inexorablePanda

[Cam]

Is it possible that the Tranquilline Halls are the planet the Humans of Roshar Migrated from? (Yolen maybe, I forget it's name)

[Nisana she/her]

Answering "why" the heralds have to suffer.  Argent mentioned the speculation that the Tranquilline Halls became Braize/Damnation. 

 

{Speculation}

Imagine that the Oathpact resurrected you to a decent place.  The Heralds deal would be that they have to serve, but they get cool swords and powers and come back to life forever.  It wouldn't be too bad.  When the place you come back to life at gets controlled by the epitome of hate with godlike powers that you have continually defeated, you will suffer. 

{/Speculation}

 

hmmm, that sounds good, it could be a good pact, but...it doesn't seem a honor-thing: well, if you think about it, the Heralds are chosen by Honor and Kaladin, in order to be a KR, has to defend even those who he hates. So, it's not easy to be tied to Honor, because you have to do what is properly right, even without rewards and even if you could hate what you doing (saving someone you hate, for example). The Heralds must be more "honorable" than the Radiants, they are on a superior level: just think about Nin (even if we could  think that he's mad). So, I don't believe that they were granted a great life for thousand years and, after that, a period of war: don't know, I think that the torture, somehow, was a part of the Oathpact. I have to re-read the prologue (and unfortunately I have it only in Italian (so maybe it's not so well translated), but it doesn't seem to me that the torture was a recent thing, but something that happened many times before. Maybe it's not. 

On the other hand, there's a strange thing: the cosmere is divided in three realms, and the deaths (if I understand well) belongs to the spiritual realm: but when the Heralds die, according to you they return in the physical realm. Well, as the Shards do not know about the afterlife (I think about the last quotation in this topic) Honor must have done something in order to recreate their body in the physical, somehow and somewhere. 

 

Do you all think that Desolations come from Odium? I'm not so sure (maybe it's a stupid thing): but I thought that the difference between this desolation and the previous ones was the presence of Odium on Roshar.

 

 

 

As for the Tranquilline Halls, I've always imagined (as Cam) that they were the original planet from where the humans arrived on Roshar: not all the Shards may have recreated humans in their world as Ruin and Preservation.

[Argent he/him]

Do you all think that Desolations come from Odium? I'm not so sure (maybe it's a stupid thing): but I thought that the difference between this desolation and the previous ones was the presence of Odium on Roshar.

 

There is really no reason to doubt that. The Heralds are directly tied to the cycle of Desolations, and they also go to Odium's backyard between Desolations - which makes all those things connected. Plus, the Voidbringers - literally the things that mark a new Desolation - work with Odium's Invstiture, are possessed by Odium's spren, and serve Odium's goals. There isn't a single piece of evidence that I can think of that points in the direction of the Desolations being independent of or unrelated to Odium.

[Moogle]

To add a different idea onto Argent's, I think it could very easily be Honor that created the cycle of Desolations in the first place. To combat Odium, obviously, but the core idea, where everyone takes a few hundred years break before attacking each other is not what I'd expect a being made of hate and loathing to do. It seems like something Honor would do, setting up a series of 'honorable' duels. Might have been a deal with Odium, might have been some sort of special Honor power like other Shards we've seen?

[Argent he/him]

To add a different idea onto Argent's, I think it could very easily be Honor that created the cycle of Desolations in the first place. To combat Odium, obviously, but the core idea, where everyone takes a few hundred years break before attacking each other is not what I'd expect a being made of hate and loathing to do. It seems like something Honor would do, setting up a series of 'honorable' duels. Might have been a deal with Odium, might have been some sort of special Honor power like other Shards we've seen?

 

Depends how you look at it. The Desolations could just as easily be interpreted as the times when Odium feels confident enough that he can finally destroy that odious world (or whatever else his goal is). It's not that he keeps his hatred in check - he is just smart enough to know that a dam unleashed does more damage than a stream allowed to flow freely. Because metaphors.

[Moogle]

Depends how you look at it. The Desolations could just as easily be interpreted as the times when Odium feels confident enough that he can finally destroy that odious world (or whatever else his goal is). It's not that he keeps his hatred in check - he is just smart enough to know that a dam unleashed does more damage than a stream allowed to flow freely. Because metaphors.

 

That's possible too! Mine is just just an idle thought. Hard to say much with the current state of the evidence.

 

I do think there's no real reason for Odium to need a break, though. Honor's Splintered, he should be able to just melt Roshar with sheer Shardic power, since Cultivation's being apathetic. (Unless she's not?) If Honor bound Odium in some way, that would fit the observed behavior.

[Argent he/him]

That's possible too! Mine is just just an idle thought. Hard to say much with the current state of the evidence.

 

I do think there's no real reason for Odium to need a break, though. Honor's Splintered, he should be able to just melt Roshar with sheer Shardic power, since Cultivation's being apathetic. (Unless she's not?) If Honor bound Odium in some way, that would fit the observed behavior.

 

Unless maybe an all-out attack will provoke Cultivation. She might not care much for humanity at the moment, as Wyndle seems to suggest, but she is still sticking around, so there is something on Roshar she cares about. If Odium were to threaten than something strongly enough, combined with the danger of her own Splintering, she might actually step up and get in his way. The way I see it, right now she is fine just letting humanity do its thing, like it has been doing for the past several millenia - a stalemate doesn't really affect her that much; but if Odium were to jump in for realz, she could feel threatened enough to take action. And who knows where things would go from there.

[Moogle]

Unless maybe an all-out attack will provoke Cultivation. She might not care much for humanity at the moment, as Wyndle seems to suggest, but she is still sticking around, so there is something on Roshar she cares about. If Odium were to threaten than something strongly enough, combined with the danger of her own Splintering, she might actually step up and get in his way. The way I see it, right now she is fine just letting humanity do its thing, like it has been doing for the past several millenia - a stalemate doesn't really affect her that much; but if Odium were to jump in for realz, she could feel threatened enough to take action. And who knows where things would go from there.

 

Possible, but this makes me wonder why Odium hasn't Splintered Cultivation yet. If she were really in his way in a way that he could deal with, you'd think he could kill her. He's probably recovered from Honor's Splintering, it's probably been over a thousand years. This makes me think maybe he can't go for Cultivation yet until he 'wins' the cycle of Desolations.

 

And of course he's previously done a 2-for-1 special on Splintering, so why not do both Honor and Cultivation?

Edited January 21, 2015 by Moogle

[Argent he/him]

Cultivation's ability to see the future well might be a problem. 

[weebojello]

Moogle,

 

Interesting to think that he *can't* until the desolations end. What I can't quite ... get is that from we know the Oathpact is between the Heralds and Honor only.

 

Yet, the KR and the Heralds power are of both Cultivation *and* Honor.

 

Should we be asking Brandon some questions about Cultivation in that aspect?

 

Argent - I agree. How good is her prescience? Honor has great respect for it, obviously. She clearly knows or sees something - though does she care at this point is one thing. Personally, I would have maintained that Dalinar / Navani would inherit both shards. Dalinar is very much about Honor and Navani is very much about creating new things, change. 2 cents....course Dalinar needs to unsplinter a lot of stuff first.

[RawToast225 he/him]

My name is Talenel'Elin. I spent five milenia on in a hellish underworld where I became someone else. Where I became... someone else.

 

Anyway, we really don't know what the Oathpact meant.

[Darkness he/him]

Actually, I have a thought on that. I've just been rereading Way of Kings, and it struck me that the Oathpact - giving Heralds the ability to forestay Odium indefinitely (until they break), while making them suffer in Damnation between Desolations - may well have been forged by Cultivation. The blessing of power with the curse of torture sounds like something the Nightwatcher would do. Hear me out. Even if Cultivation is not the Nightwatcher, most of us agree they are at least related somehow.

It would be awesome if this series climaxed with 10 new 'Radiants' stepping forward and forming a new Oathpact with the Nightwatcher to prevent Odium's reign. Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Szeth (please? I know he isn't a surgebinder, but can we please have Nightblood destroy evil all over Odium's butt?), Lift and a few others could become the new Heralds!

Not supported by hard fact at all, but wouldn't it be awesome? And I don't think it's been straight up refuted...

 

Edit: I was reading tWoK page 855 when this all finally occurred to me. We know how history becomes myth, gets twisted, and turned on its head. The paragraph from Kaladin reads, "It fed his nagging worry that he was subject to some kind of supernatural curse of the type that were supposed to happen to people who sought the Old Magic. There were stories of evil men made immortal, then tortured over and over again..." - I figure that kind of story could arise from the Heralds' situation. Also, calling the Nightwatcher's curse/blessing the Old Magic seems somehow important to me; like it was around before even the Radiants, maybe even at the time of the Oathpact's founding.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Darkness

[Nisana she/her]

Darkness, I really like your theory about Oathpact being of Cultivation! (even if I think that requiring obedience to such a pact could be of Honor) It's the most convincing theory I've read!

[Redbird he/him]

It is called the old magic simply because it is pre vorinism.

[Lirins hand]

Old Magic: shards, oathpact, heralds, nightwatcher

New Magic: Knights Radiant, (controlled?) nahel bonds, spren based magic, fabrials

 

Old and new are relative only to each other, not necessarily to any specific date/occurrence.  Thinking of the old/new churches in Amsterdam - the Nieuwe Kerk (1408) is only new in comparison to the Oude Kerk (1213).  In relative terms they are the "old" and "oldest" churches since more than a few have been built since then.

I like this idea, actually, that the "new magic" was everything built around the KR and the nahel bonds.  When that one guy came up with a new and different idea overnight (measuring/binding the spren to the oaths so each KR order is consistent within itself?).