Lightflame he/him Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Today in my incredibly slow reread of The Way of Kings, I reached Cocoons, which is Chapter 16, running from pages 245 to 257 in the hardcover edition. At first, I didn't think anything of significance could be hidden in a Kaladin flashback chapter (I always underestimate Brandon), but I think I might have found something. On page 254, we have a moment where Kaladin goes into "battle mode". The Way of Kings, Page 254 (Hardcover edition):Kal growled in anger and pain, snatching his quarterstaff from the ground and leaping at Jost. The older boy cursed, stumbling backward as he raised his weapon. Kal bellowed, slamming his weapon forward. Something changed in that moment. Kal felt an energy as he held the weapon, an excitement that washed away his pain. ... Kal had never held a weapon before, never been in a fight more dangerous than a wrestling match with Tien. But the length of wood felt right in his hands. He was amazed by how wondeful the moment felt. Actually, until I typed that quote I was going to go on a tangent about how the rock Tien gave to Kaladin chanelled "warrior's spirit" or something in him, but I just noticed something. That scene there, the cliche moment where the hero realizes that they're actually really badass, is accepted by our minds because we've seen it so many times. But this isn't any old "badass" moment. Kaladin just activated the Thrill, and he did it without a Shardblade. While my mind struggles to comprehend how that is possible, I'm going to go back to the topic I wanted to bring up. On page 247, Tien shows up and gives Kaladin a rock. Here, have some quotes. The Way of Kings, Page 247 (Hardcover edition):Tien opened his hands to reveal a small stone, weathered on all sides, but with a jagged break on the bottom. Kal picked it up, looking it over. He couldn't see anything distinctive about it at all. In fact, it was dull. "It's just a rock," Kal said. "Not just a rock," Tien said, taking out his canteen. He wetted his thumb, then rubbed it on the flat side of the stone. The wetness darkened the stone, and made visible an array of white patterns on the rock. "See?" Tien asked, handing it back. The strata of the rock alternate white, black, brown. The pattern was remarkable. Of course, it was still just a rock. But for some reason, Kal found himself smiling. ... It was just a stupid rock. Yet, inexplicably, Kal did feel better. The Way of Kings, Page 248 (Hardcover edition):Kal moved down across the boulders, pocketing the rock he'd been given. The Way of Kings, Page 257 (Hardcover edition):The rocks Tien had given him were still in his pocket. He pulled them out, then took his canteen off his belt and washed them with water. The first one he'd been given showed the white swirls and strata. It appeared the other one had a hidden design too. It looked like a face, smiling at him, made of white bits in the rock. Kal smiled despite himself, though it quickly faded. A rock wasn't going to solve his problems. A strange rock that magically makes Kaladin happy, while also seeming to have a face in it? Either Tien gave Kaladin drugs, or something is up with those rocks. Seeing as the rocks magically improve his mood, something mystical like a Spren is probably hiding within them. They might have Stormlight, but Kaladin couldn't use Stormlight until he met Syl, and the rocks still retain their powers after he activates the Thrill. (Possibly. After Kaladin uses the Thrill, the first rock doesn't cause him to crack a smile, but the second one does. However, the first rock still retains its pattern.) If the rocks do have Spren in them, then that may suggest that Shardblades have Spren within them as well. After all, the translated notes Navani has reveal that Soulcasters work becuase they have Spren inside them , meaning that Shardblades are the only magic that doesn't use Spren. Also, the face in the rock could be the face of a Spren. Also, if the rocks do indeed have Spren, Tien finding them can't be a coincidence. He might have some special power which lets him detect Spren, or he might have a connection to the Radiants. The next thing to consider is Syl's hatred of Shardblades. She has no known problem with Fabrials, which contain Spren , so the Spren inside Shardblades must set her off. The only other thing known to set Syl off is the name "Odium". Make of this what you will. And there we have my theory. As I continue to reread The Way of Kings, I may draw new things that give my theory a more constructive purpose, but for now you have to make due with my conclusions based on that chapter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Are the rocks responsible or just the memories of Tien's innocence responsible for the change in mood? I am inclined to believe the latter more mundane explanation. The rocks remind Kaladin of Tien. Not saying your theory isn't possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture he/him Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Not that anything else you say isn't valid, but the thrill is just a part of the Alethi warlike personality. Sadeas speaks to Dalinar about the thrill, implying almost certainly he has felt it, and Sadeas only owns plate, not a shardblade 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Not that anything else you say isn't valid, but the thrill is just a part of the Alethi warlike personality. Sadeas speaks to Dalinar about the thrill, implying almost certainly he has felt it, and Sadeas only owns plate, not a shardblade Sadeas is a lighteyes so one of his ancestors has held a shardblade. If shardblades make all your descendant's in perpetuity have lighteyes, I don't see why it can't also subject your descendants to a a shard-linked Thrill. I lean towards the Thrill being more than just normal battlelust and adrenaline, and being something specific to the magic system on Roshar simply because Brandon has chosen to capitalize it and discuss it so much. Edited September 4, 2012 by dionysus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightflame he/him Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Are the rocks responsible or just the memories of Tien's innocence responsible for the change in mood? I am inclined to believe the latter more mundane explanation. The rocks remind Kaladin of Tien. Not saying your theory isn't possible. It happens twice. From a meta standpoint, that makes it likely to be significant. From an in-universe standpoint, Kaladin notes that rocks really shouldn't be able to change his mood, and he's too young for innocence to make him inexplicably happy. Something's up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddlesinthedark he/him Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Sadeas is a lighteyes so one of his ancestors has held a shardblade. If shardblades make all your descendant's in perpetuity have lighteyes, I don't see why it can't also subject your descendants to a a shard-linked Thrill. I lean towards the Thrill being more than just normal battlelust and adrenaline, and being something specific to the magic system on Roshar simply because Brandon has chosen to capitalize it and discuss it so much. Do we know this? I've kinda suspected that marriages between low-lighteyes and high darkeyes might produce a mix, with cultural repercussions similar to mulatto culture in the West Indies, where the lighteyed kids would be praised and favored. Because family lines get around, especially after 4500 odd years, and likely almost everyone would have lighteyes. It would be worse than even allomancy's dispersal over a 1000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Do we know this? I've kinda suspected that marriages between low-lighteyes and high darkeyes might produce a mix, with cultural repercussions similar to mulatto culture in the West Indies, where the lighteyed kids would be praised and favored. Because family lines get around, especially after 4500 odd years, and likely almost everyone would have lighteyes. It would be worse than even allomancy's dispersal over a 1000 years. I guess I am inferring it. We know that holding a shardblade makes you have light eyes. We know that this is the only way a dark eyes can achieve the ranks Lighteyes can hold in Alethi society. We know that there are many (a majority?) Lighteyes who are of low Lighteyes rank, who have never held a shardblade and probably their recent ancestors haven't either. Think the Lighteyes in charge of the bridge crews, or the various scribes, accountants, etc. that Dalinar has around him. I don't recall a specific mention in the text that states that lighteyes will always have lighteyed children, or if there is a difference between shardbearer ligheyes and non-shardbearer lighteyes. My question is, what makes you think the source of lighteyes isn't shardbearer lineage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Lighteyes will not always have lighteyed children. When Kaladin is thinking about what would have happened if he married into a Lighteyed family, some of his children would be born lighteyed. It is entirely possible that all lighteyes are descended from someone who held a Shardblade, but that does not mean all people descended from Shardblade holders have light eyes. In fact, almost everyone would have a Shardblade holder in their ancestry at this point even considering the strong social barriers limiting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidbringer Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 I'm not sure where the eye-color shardblade connection came from, but I would not be surprised if (at least) one of these rocks were important. If I am remembering correctly, Kaladin obtained the rock from Tien before feeling how the staff felt right when he was facing Jost. In addition, it says that the rock was smooth on most sides but one, where it had a jagged appearance, which to my mind suggests it was broken open or something. (Wanders into speculation land) Could something have been released and for some reason "attached" itself to Kaladin passing on Tien because Tien could detect it? Is that where Syl first entered Kaladin's life? Does that mean that the Honorspren are trapped in stone? Considering how spren can be trapped in precious stones (in the form of fabrials), and how stone seems to be such an important part of Roshar, I would not be surprised. It brings to mind the Mistborn trilogy: It reminds me of how innocuous Vin's earring seemed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddlesinthedark he/him Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 My question is, what makes you think the source of lighteyes isn't shardbearer lineage? I think its Knights Radiance lineage, which is why Hoid says it makes sense that they revere light-eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidbringer Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 But the Alethi think the KR betrayed them. Does that mean it was the dark eyes who are KR lineage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 I doubt very much that all lighteyes are descended from KR/Shardbearers, but I'm sure all the ones with weird eye colours like purple and yellow are. Most of the ones with ordinary blue or green eyes probably just benefited from the association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lighteyes will not always have lighteyed children. When Kaladin is thinking about what would have happened if he married into a Lighteyed family, some of his children would be born lighteyed. Guess I missed that. Is this during the flashback to him and that lighteyes chick that has a crush on him when they are adolescents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yeah, it's in one of those sections, probably when he finds out his father had been planning on marrying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 he/him Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Keep in mind that the Shin see rocks as Holy. They likely have a reason for that. It may not be a very valid reason, or it may be a very valid reason, but they do have a reason. Maybe this is connected to it. And I don't know. If my little sister, who I care about, gave me something that she thought was special, I would smile, and would cheer up. Don't discount the fact that this could just be a family loving moment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 The Shin seem to believe that stone becomes the final resting place for the souls of the dead. The Parshmen lay their dead on a slab of stone. Kaladin swears he sees a face in his rock. Could be nothing, particularly the Kaladin connection, which is a bit of a stretch, but it be somethin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Another thing on the Thrill: The Way of Kings, page 223 (Paperback) "The Thrill of contest began to rise within him. It wasn't nearly as the Thrill of battle, but it was a worthy substitute." It seems that the Thrill is not limited to battle; I would guess that any Alethi can feel it. Otherwise on the Shin/Parshmen, something along those lines is really important; we just don't know what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Another thing on the Thrill: It seems that the Thrill is not limited to battle; I would guess that any Alethi can feel it. Otherwise on the Shin/Parshmen, something along those lines is really important; we just don't know what. Since real-world athletes enjoy a good contest, this lesser thrill may simply be the anticipation normal people feel when they work on something they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) After all, the translated notes Navani has reveal that Soulcasters work becuase they have Spren inside them , meaning that Shardblades are the only magic that doesn't use Spren. ... The next thing to consider is Syl's hatred of Shardblades. She has no known problem with Fabrials, which contain Spren , so the Spren inside Shardblades must set her off. The only other thing known to set Syl off is the name "Odium". Make of this what you will. Good catch on the stone thing. It seems like a possible hint, even though I don't know what to make of it yet. I do have some little quibbles about the above statements. I believe that Navani's notebooks only refer to the modern style fabrials. I think she says somewhere that the ancient style of fabrials are a complete mystery to modern artifabrians. Soulcasters, shardplate, shardblades, the possible Regrowth Healing fabrial that the Radiant uses in Dalinar's Midnight Essence vision and the rumored Oathgates are ancient fabrials that Navani doesn't understand. So, the Soulcasters may work due to internal spren, but Navani's notes don't prove it. Consider that the modern fabrials and the specific cuts are a recent discovery, but Soulcasters have been in use for millenia, with routine replacement of cracked gems and no knowledge of the special spren-trapping cuts. I am confused about what you are saying. In one paragraph, Shardblades don't have spren, but in the other, the spren inside Shardblades set Syl off. I must be missing something. The conclusion that it is the spren inside shardblades that cause Syl's antipathy may be true, but seems unsupported. The impoverished bridgemen have no fabrials, so we have no evidence about her reactions to any fabrials besides shardblades and shardplate. Both Shardblades and Shardplate are ancient style fabrials, that may or may not have trapped spren. Syl could be upset by some physical element of the shardblade, it's possession by someone not constrained by five Radiant oaths or its recent use. Syl is also upset by Hoid, the soldiers who beat Kaladin and the carnage of the climactic Tower fight. I apologize if this comment seems negative (and upvote you to prove my lack of negative intent!), because I am really interested in your thoughts and observations. Edited September 18, 2012 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethling he/him Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 During one of his Dreams, doesn't Dalinar remark about seeing one of the KR that was darkeyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 During one of his Dreams, doesn't Dalinar remark about seeing one of the KR that was darkeyed? In the Feverstone Keep/Recreance vision, I think Dalinar is surprised to see an officer of the non-KR garrison that is darkeyed. Could that be what you're thinking of? I think the point is that before the Recreance, the KR are the only lighteyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaring at the Survivor he/him Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 (edited) ... Also, if the rocks do indeed have Spren, Tien finding them can't be a coincidence. He might have some special power which lets him detect Spren, or he might have a connection to the Radiants. ... That is very possible. I doubt just anyone could do what Kaladin did. I think Syl kind of unlocked his power, but he was somehow related to the Knights Radiant. And, if Kaladin was/is eek adopted, then so was/is Tien. Edited September 19, 2012 by Stroniax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 That is very possible. I doubt just anyone could do what Kaladin did. I think Syl kind of unlocked his power, but he was somehow related to the Knights Radiant. And, if Kaladin was/is eek adopted, then so was/is Tien. Wait, how can we be sure Tien was adopted if Kaladin was? If Kaladin was adopted and never knew.... Anyway, I doubt adoption happens much, if at all in this world, it's sort of a modern thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lirin's hand Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Just finished reading it the first time and going from memory. I thought all along there is something special about Kal's whole family. Tien's rock collecting just seems too specific and I think he is either finding rocks with embedded gems (storm light that Kal used when he first picked up the quarter staff) or with accessible spren (faces, lights, designs). It comes up too often to be random feel-good thoughts, I think. Lirin and Hesina also don't seem to fall in any mold we've seen so far with no definitive back story. Kal and Tien may be adopted/selected by them for their potential or K&T may have inherited their potential from Lirin and Hesina directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's Beard Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) Tien = Jr. Stone shaman. Well... would have. Edited January 10, 2013 by Odium's Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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