Stormlight Archive Reread [Updated: 02/27/2015]

[snote]

There are also voidspren, spren of Odium, and we know he's still alive. A Shard can form a number of Splinters without it being fatal to its holder, as can be seen on Nalthis, and of course on Roshar. I suspect any Shard attempting to Invest on Roshar will produce spren whether it wants to or not.

See, this is why I think that Odium used part of himself to shatter Honor. Hence his reputation as "The Broken One". I don't know that we have specifically seen any spren of Cultivation. That may be why her side of Roshar is so much more lush. She is whole and so is able to properly watch over her lands.

Honor may have even used his and Cultivation's future sight to determine that by his shattering he would create a force that was able to withstand his enemy. Though, that wouldn't make sense would it? Without both being shattered (in my theory) there wouldn't be any voidbringers to fight. If they are infact only bonded Listeners. Also, he states that he was surprised by the coming of the KR. So, it's possible he was surprised to see them while using his future sight. Though that doesn't seem like what he meant... well hrmm. I guess I just argued myself out of that one.

[skaa he/him]

I don't know that we have specifically seen any spren of Cultivation. That may be why her side of Roshar is so much more lush. She is whole and so is able to properly watch over her lands.

 

If we are to trust Jasnah about what she says about this, then naturespren are of Cultivation. I think Ivory would have corrected her if she was wrong about that.

[natc]

See, this is why I think that Odium used part of himself to shatter Honor. Hence his reputation as "The Broken One". I don't know that we have specifically seen any spren of Cultivation. That may be why her side of Roshar is so much more lush. She is whole and so is able to properly watch over her lands.

Honor may have even used his and Cultivation's future sight to determine that by his shattering he would create a force that was able to withstand his enemy. Though, that wouldn't make sense would it? Without both being shattered (in my theory) there wouldn't be any voidbringers to fight. If they are infact only bonded Listeners. Also, he states that he was surprised by the coming of the KR. So, it's possible he was surprised to see them while using his future sight. Though that doesn't seem like what he meant... well hrmm. I guess I just argued myself out of that one.

Do note that Honor's future sight appears to be grossly inaccurate. Probably less inaccurate than Ruin, but not all that great. The way HoA is paced Ruin can't seem to even go beyond a few minutes if not seconds.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

I think from the subtext, it's clear that Honor is NOT alive. Syl says outright that she is the little part of a god. That god is Honor. The spren are required for the KR to bond a spren and have surgebindings. The Herald who speaks in the Epilogue is citing both Dustbringer and Surgebinders as things that exist. So, I would find it inconsolable that both Honor and Spren exist simultaneously.

 

I'm pretty sure that Honor was Splintered after the Heralds forsook the Oathpact.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

 

I think from the subtext, it's clear that Honor is NOT alive. Syl says outright that she is the little part of a god. That god is Honor. The spren are required for the KR to bond a spren and have surgebindings. The Herald who speaks in the Epilogue is citing both Dustbringer and Surgebinders as things that exist. So, I would find it inconsolable that both Honor and Spren exist simultaneously.

 

I'm pretty sure that Honor was Splintered after the Heralds forsook the Oathpact.

 

 

This is the case:

 

Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

 

(source)

 

So Honor and spren did coexist for a time, I believe we have WoB that they are just more common now after his death and Splintering.  There are definitely spren of Cultivation since we have WoB that "all the spren we have seen" (as of WoK) "are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation".

 

(on a side note, since when have quotes nested like this?!?)

[Shlee]

Thanks Weiry. I hadn't found time yet to go searching for the stuff I wanted to refute this

 

We know that there are spren of Cultivation and Honor and also that there were Adonalsium spren on Roshar before Cultivation and Honor arrived. WoBs:

 

 

QUESTION

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, thespren like Syl, have certain umm.

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

This is a pre-WoR WoB, and it's not super clear, but definitely there are both Honor and Cultivation or mixed spren.

 

 

 

QUESTION

Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question, what do you think?

QUESTION

I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a very astute observation!

QUESTION

And since we know that Honor is Splintered, then it might be the case that Cultivation is also Splintered, and their Splinters form the spren.

FOOTNOTE

In a prior signing report it was revealed that Cultivation's shardholder is indeed alive.

This doesn't particularly confirm anything, but it doesn't refute the Honor/Cultivation combined spren-ness either 

 

And finally:

 

 

WETLANDER

Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.

BRANDON SANDERSON

An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

QUESTION

People?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

WETLANDER

So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

 

WETLANDER

Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.

 

So my recap: Honor was alive when the Heralds were around, therefore my statement about Honorblades perhaps changing due to his splintering is still valid until otherwise disproven    

 

Syl does indeed say she is a little piece of a god in WoK - but also in WoR that the Honorblades were pieces of Honor:

 

“The Honorblades are what we are based on, Kaladin. Honor gave these to men, and those men gained powers from them. Spren figured out what He’d done, and we imitated it. We’re bits of His power, after all, like this sword. Be careful with it. It is a treasure.”

 

And Pattern confirms that there were fewer spren before the Recreance than there are now, so I definitely agree that the splintering has created more spren, but not ALL the spren. I personally think this means that Honor's shattering was Post-Recreance, but to my knowledge, we've never been able to get a confirmation as to which of those two events happened first. (someone feel free to pull out an obscure WoB here.....)

 

“Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

 

As to Odium giving up some of his power to shatter Honor - doesn't seem like the sort of thing Odium would be willing to do, since he seems pretty intent on the entire Cosmere, not just Roshar.

[Frosted Flakes]

Chapter Five: Heretic

 

• I have seen the end, and have heard it named.  The Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation.  The Everstorm.  (True Desolation implies that the previous Desolation's were...I don't know...warmups?)

 

• [Jasnah] had a squarish face and discriminating pale violet eyes.  She was listening to a man dressed in robes of burnt orange and white, the Kharbranthian royal colors.  (Technically, the word discriminating works here, but I've always felt that the word discerning works better.  Also.  Violet eyes.  I will discover the significance of color eventually!)

 

• Reserved, statuesque, dressed immaculately in blue and silver.  (From eye color to royal colors to the colors people paint their Shardplate...I'm starting to care less and less about Odium and wondering about these blustering colors!)

 

• On her freehand was a distinctive piece of jewelry: two rings and a bracelet connected by several chains, holding a triangular group of gemstones across the back of the hand.  (This is our first description of a Soulcaster fabrial.  Do the configuration of the gems matter?)

 

• House Davar was ancient, but only of middling power and importance.  (So House Davar is ancient, and Shallan becomes a Radiant.  Descended from Radiants, perhaps?) 

 

• [Jasnah soulcasts a boulder to smoke to gain entrace to a sealed room at the request of Taravangian.]  (This scene is too long to type out verbatim, but something is fishy here.  I can't believe that a stone would collapse so far underground from a highstorm.  I think Taravangian set this whole thing up to test Jasnah.  Maybe he suspects she may be a Soulcaster herself, not merely in possession of a soulcasting fabrial.)

 

Note:  This chapter has very straightforward content - not much to speculate about. 

 

 

[back to Table of Contents]

 

 

Pre Consolidation: Chapter Four is up.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Frosted Flakes

[Xaladin he/him]

Chapter Four: The Shattered Plains

 

********************************

• "[The Alethi Armies] were camped in a series of enormous crater-like rock formations, only the sides were more irregular, more jagged.  Like broken eggshells.  (Eggshells?  Maybe they were exactly that.  Perhaps the Reshi Island Greatshells hatched here long ago.  It makes a kind of sense.  The reason these greatshells can grow to be so large a size is because of their gemhearts.  I propose that the reason they pupate on the Shattered Plains is twofold.  Firstly, geographically, it's a protected area.  The plateaus offer a reasonable amount of protection while they're helpless for the duration of pupation.  Secondly, also geographically, it's close to the Origin of Storms.  I bet they infuse a massive amount of Stormlight into their gemhearts to prepare for their next phase of evolution.  Eventually, they grow to be so large that living on land is no longer viable, and they move to the sea.

What if the Chasmfiends metamorphose into Santhids? We know Santhids are incredibly rare; perhaps it's because they are endangered by the hunting of the juveniles of their kind?

ALSO, Shallan sees the same kind of Spren around the Chasmfiend as around the Santhid!

[Frosted Flakes]

Chapter Six:  Bridge Four

 

• I'm cold.  Mother, I'm cold.  Mother?  Why can I still hear the rain?  Will it stop?  (This epigraph subject was a lighteyed female child, approximately six years old.  I wish there was slightly more information here so that I could better extrapolate what she's seeing.  Is the Cognitive Realm ever described as cold?  At least one epigraph is a vision of Shadesmar, but most are not, so I'll assume that isn't what she's seeing.  All that I can be reasonably certain of is that there is rain and this child thinks there shouldn't be.  Even that isn't a certainty.  Maybe she's visually seeing a clear sky, but hears rain.  Ah, well.  No use speculating with so little information.  Even meta-speculation isn't helpful - Sanderson isn't going to throw frivolous details into these epigraphs, so I assume this is somehow important...but for what reason, who can say?

 

• However, many of the soldiers had a disorderly look.  They weren't dirty, but the didn't seem particularly disciplined either.  (Kaladin is a little disappointed at this.  I am too.  I'm also surprised - Sadeas doesn't seem like he'd care much about the Codes, but disciplined soldiers are a mark of an effective leader; I would assume that Sadeas would insist that his soldiers be disciplined if for no other reason than it would reflect well on himself.

 

• Tvlakv spoke with an important-looking lighteyed woman.  She wore her dark hair up in a complex weave, sparkling with infused amethysts, and her dress was a deep crimson.  She looked much as Laral had, at the end.  (I admit that out of everything in Way of Kings, the flashbacks are what I was least interested in.  I was so caught up in the present story that I didn't pay close attention to them.  I had already accepted Kaladin's character and didn't need the flashbacks to flesh him out to me, so I feel like I'm missing something important when he thinks that this lighteyed woman looks like Laral had at the end.  The end of what?  Forgive my ignorance, dear readers.)

 

• [Tvlakv and the lighteyed woman haggle over the slaves]  (I can't believe Tvlakv tolerates this sort of haggling.  She pretty much forces him to accept her terms.  I understand he has to be respectful towards a lighteyes - but I don't think it's legal for her to tell him how much he'll sell the slaves for.  He'd have been well within his rights to profusely apologize, yet insist he visit other Highprinces.)

 

• "I cannot trust that you will behave.  The people in this army, they will blame a merchant for not revealing all he knew.  I...am sorry."  (I believe that he's sorry.  I forget, does Tvlakv die?  I'd really enjoy for him and Kaladin to meet again.)

 

• "These spindly things?"  Gaz said, chewing on something as he walked over.  "They'll barely stop an arrow."  (Foreshadowing!  Literally the first thing Gaz says describes the purpose of the bridgemen.)

 

• Kaladin sighed.  He'd met this kind of man before, a lesser sergeant with no hope of advancement.  His only pleasure in life came from his authority over those eve sorrier than himself.  (So apparently the Alethi don't have something comparable to a Medical Discharge, and I doubt injured soldiers get any sort of disability benefits.  I actually feel for Gaz.  Guy got hurt and they stick him with this horrible job and constantly threaten to put him on a bridge crew himself.)

 

• "Dead," one of the bridgemen said.  "Tossed himself down the Honor Chasm last night."  (I always thought it was weird that the place they kill themselves is called the Honor Chasm.  What happened to strength before weakness and life before death?  Yes, those are Radiant oaths, but they're honorable in nature.)

 

• The armor [shardplate] felt alien somehow.  It had been crafted in another epoch, a time when gods had walked Roshar.  (Does he mean gods like Honor, Cultivation, and Odium?  Or gods as in the Heralds?  Also, a little earlier it references Shardplate as each set being unique - why is that?  How is Shardplate created?  Is it the product of the Nahel Bond?  Will Syl eventually become a set of Plate for Kaladin?  I assume the gemstones in modern plate are not something the Radiants used.)

 

• It didn't take Kaladin long to nurture a seething hatred of the scrawny, scarfaced man.  That was odd; he hadn't felt hatred for his other sergeants.  (Kaladin just keeps filling up with hate.  Although it is an understandable and natural reaction, I strongly suspect it's related to Odium.  Hatred led the Parshendi to their stormforms.)

 

• "Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies," said the man to [Kaladin's] right, voice horrified.  "It's going to be a bad one.  They're already lined up!  It's going to be a bad one!"  (How does this bridgeman know that Taln is the bearer of all agonies?  Initially, only the other nine Heralds should have known what happened - for this information to be available to a random bridgeman, one or more of the Heralds must have spread stories.  How much truth is in Vorinism?)

 

• Something snapped against [Kaladin's] face, a slight slap of energy with a sting to it.  He cringed.  (Syl slapped Kaladin.  I was to know the mechanics of how this works.  Was it a truly physical slap, or did she Cognitively slap him?  Is such a thing possible?)

 

 

[Pre Consolidation]: [@Xaladin]:  I'm sure of it. Chasmfiend > Santhid > ??? > Reshi Islands.

 

 

[back to Table of Contents]

Edited February 18, 2015 by Frosted Flakes

[Caladcholg he/him]

Chapter Four: The Shattered Plains

 

• "Occasionally, light would flash without the thunder.  The slaves would groan in terror at this, thinking about the Stormfather, the shades of the Lost Radiants, or the Voidbringers - all of which were said to haunt the most violent highstorms."  (Personally, I think I've begun taking highstorms for granted as a quirk of Roshar.  But there is obviously something very, very important going on with them.  Highstorms generate stormlight - maybe there is some truth behind some of the old legends.)

I think the highstorms act as a device to spread the investiture across the continent(sort of like Mists from Mistborn).  Following that line of thought, that the Origin is Honor's shardpool, and that why the storms generate there.

[Shlee]

 

ALSO, Shallan sees the same kind of Spren around the Chasmfiend as around the Santhid!

I'm pretty sure these are gravity-related spren. Shallan also says this in WoR:

“Those spren,” Shallan whispered, so soft he could barely hear. “I’ve seen those . . .”

They danced around the chasmfiend, and were the source of the light. They looked like small glowing arrows, and they surrounded the beast in schools, though occasionally one would drift away from the others and then vanish like a small plume of smoke rising into the air.

“Skyeels,” Shallan whispered. “They follow skyeels too."

 

Dalinar also mentions during the chasmfiend hunt that you see them around "the bodies of freshly killed greatshells"  Oh, and after writing this I just remembered this:

 

 

INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

OBSERVER

What are the smoke-y spren that appear around a dead chasmfiend?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are in a symbiotic relationship with the chasmfiend, and are part of what allow the creatures to grow to the size they do with an exoskeleton. (Along with a high-oxygen, lower-gravity world.)

TAGS

 

More good thoughts with the update. I agree that something is fishy about that convenient rockfall of Taravangian's. 

 

The origin being Honor's shardpool is an interesting thought.  I don't know that the mists came from the shardpool though....

Lots of interesting thoughts in here. I am curious about links to our current Radiants and past radiants. (there's a recent WoB about Kaladin's mother giving up a lot in her life... so she may have lighteyed connections) and Davars and the Kholins seem to have lengthy histories.....it's interesting, at any rate. I also wonder what the original Heralds' family names were (we know Jezrien was a king before he was a herald....)

[natc]

The Mists appear indiscriminately on the continent of the Mistborn trilogy at night outdoors though, and later proves capable of being perpetual. The highstorms theoretically do need one as they weaken passing through natural obstacles (like you'd expect a storm to behave) to the point of being barely existent by the time they reach Shinovar.

Edited February 15, 2015 by natc

[Frosted Flakes]

Chapter Seven: Anything Reasonable

 

• "They are aflame.  They burn.  They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame.  Burn, burn, burn..."  (I wish I knew what this person was seeing.  Skin aflame?  Bringing darkness?  I don't recall Voidbringers being described this way.)

 

• As a child, [shallan] had found the patterns of [Parshmen's] marbled skin beautiful.  (Parshmen's skin marbling is described as unique to each individual, and now Shallan identifies it as a pattern.  I'm always on the look out for patterns, hate, honor, etc.)

 

• Every time the family had exhausted one of its quarries, her father had gone out with his surveyor and discovered a new one.  Only after interrogating the surveyor had Shallan and her brothers discovered the truth:  Her father, using his forbidden soulcaster, had been creating new deposits at a careful rate.  (So this surveyor was in on it?  And he so casually spilled the beans to the children of the house?  He could be an idiot surveyor, or perhaps there was purpose behind leaking the intel to Shallan and her brothers.)

 

• Shallan couldn't help but admire the beauty of the doors; their exterior was carved in a intricate geometric pattern with circles and lines and glyphs.  It was some kind of chart, half on each door.  There was no time to study the details, unfortunately, and she passed them by.  (Sounds like the interior art in the physical book.  I think it has something to do with Vorinism, but I'm not confident on that.  The fact that it's so prominently displayed in Kharbranth, however, seems important.  Perhaps the Palanaeum, being buried safely underground, was a repository of knowledge meant to survive the Desolations.)

 

• "[The Veil and the Palanaeum] were here when the city was founded.  Some think these chambers might have been cut by the Dawnsingers themselves." - a master-servant to Shallan, after passing through the engraved doors into the Veil.  (Were the Dawnsingers the Heralds, or something different?)

 

• "But the third...well, the Planaeum has the finest collection of tomes and scrolls on Roshar.  More, even, than the Holy Enclave in Valath."  (The Coppermind Wiki tells me that Valath was a city in Jah Kevad, near the Horneater peaks.  The Holy Enclave piques my interest, however.)

 

• In drawing a portrait, her medium was the soul itself.  There were plants from which one could remove a tiny cutting - a leaf, or a bit of stem - then plant it and grow a duplicate.  When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page.  (How much of this is metaphor and how much of it is literal?  Can Shallan subconsciously see an aspect of a person's spiritweb and apply that to her drawing of them?  Is that why they're remarkably lifelike?  Also, cultivating caught my attention.  And I had an amusing thought about early fears about photography stealing your soul.)

 

• Each of the Ten Essences had an analogous part of the human body - blood for liquid, hair for wood, and so forth.  The eyes were associated with crystal and glass.  The windows into a person's mind and spirit.  (Is that why the eyes burn when a Shardblade cuts a person's soul?)

 

• She'd developed the habit of memorizing faces, then drawing them later, after her father had discovered her sketching the gardeners.  His daughter?  Drawing pictures of darkeyes?  He'd been furious with her - one of the infrequent times he'd directed his infamous temper at his daughter.  (Perhaps her father recognized what it was she was doing.  Maybe he didn't want her to be a Radiant.  Her father seemed like he ran in pretty shady circles; he was undoubtedly privy to some interesting secrets.)

 

• The power of change itself, the power which the Almighty had created Roshar.  He had another name, allowed to pass only the lips of ardents.  Elithanathile.  He Who Transforms.  (How on earth did I pass over this the first time without taking due notice?  This reminds me of the bridgeman who said, "Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies."  The 'Elin' looks like the beginning of Elithanathile.  Maybe Telenelat'Elin means, "Taln, Herald of the Almighty.")

 

• One cannot apply logic as an absolute where human beings are concerned.  We are not beings of thought only.  (Like spren?  Is there a distinction between living thoughts/concepts and beings of pure thought?  The implication is that spren's behavior can be predicted logically.)

 

• "By Vedeledev's golden keys, Brightness!"  (I love in-world curses.  But what on earth are Vedeledev's golden keys?)

 

• "Now, not that I doubt your word, Brightness, but I'm rather intrigued how Dandos Heraldin could have trained you in arts, as - last I checked - he's suffering a rather terminal and perpetual ailment.  Namely, that of being dead. For three hundred years."  [Kasbal to Shallan, regarding her skill in art.]  (Dandos Heraldin - a man - was a master of art?  Three hundred years ago?  He must not have lived in Vorin lands unless he was an ardent.  This gender role stuff is so intriguing.)

 

 

[back to Table of Contents]

 

 

[Pre Consolidation]: Chapter Six is up.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Frosted Flakes

[A Joe in the Bush]

• "Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies," said the man to [Kaladin's] right, voice horrified.  "It's going to be a bad one.  They're already lined up!  It's going to be a bad one!"  (How does this bridgeman know that Taln is the bearer of all agonies?  Initially, only the other nine Heralds should have known what happened - for this information to be available to a random bridgeman, one or more of the Heralds must have spread stories.  How much truth is in Vorinism?)

Wow. The implications of that are vast. Vorinism believes that the ten Heralds are still together, which means this guy is more informed, implying he's a member /ex-member of a secret society. Or is this Teft?

[natc]

Taln does apparently have a reputation of dying in excessively risky battles.

[Xaladin he/him]

Chapter Six:  Bridge Four

 

• "I cannot trust that you will behave.  The people in this army, they will blame a merchant for not revealing all he knew.  I...am sorry."  (I believe that he's sorry.  I forget, does Tvlakv die?  I'd really enjoy for him and Kaladin to meet again.)

No, actually Tvlakv is Shallan's "chauffeur" through the frostlands in Words of Radiance. As far as I know, he is still alive.

[Frosted Flakes]

Chapter Eight: Nearer The Flame

 

• "Victory! We stand atop the mount!  We scatter them before us!  Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms!  And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn."  (This death rattle sounds as if the words come from a Parshendi.  It would make sense - I subscribe to the theory that the Listeners predate human beings on Roshar, and were displaced by them.)

 

• Foolish, idiot girl, she thought, a few painspren crawling out of the wall near her head.  (This happens immediately after Jasnah angrily dismisses Shallan.  She's just left abruptly, and is nearly crying in the hall.  I've read the surrounding text very closely, and can find absolutely no evidence that Shallan is physically hurt in any way.  So I guess painspren are attracted to both physical and emotional pain.)

 

• There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they'd found in [shallan's father's] study.  What did they mean?  He'd rarely spoken of his plans to his children.  Even her father's advisors knew very little.  Helaran - her eldest brother - had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.  (Maps, you say?  I also am extremely interested.  So Kaladin kills Shallan's brother, a Shardbearer, while serving under Amaram, a Son of Honor, in a "minor border dispute."  What kind of stuff was Shallan's father involved in?  Also...Brandon uses the less common spelling of ''advisors'' rather than ''advisers.''  Not important...just neat.)

 

• "But i do know the Passions.  You win when you need it most, you see."  (Yalb to Shallan.  I'd like to know more about the Passions.  I wonder if, in this instance, Passions refers to the more archaic definition meaning the sufferings of a martyr.)

 

• "Can't I offer you a nice romantic novel?  They are my specialty, you see.  Young women from across the city come to me, and I always carry the best."  (Okay, this whole scene at the bookstore raises a lot of questions.  When all is said and done, Shallan pays over three emerald broams for a couple books.  She literally pays more money than the life of a slave is worth.  Now, I can understand that slaves are the lowest caste, but I refuse to believe they're as cheap as a stack of books.  So it must be the books that are expensive.  Is this because Roshar doesn't have a printing press?  Is it because paper is hard to come by?  Is it because the works of the authors she chose are rare and valuable?  With books being so expensive, why on early would people write silly romantic novels?  ...then again, if there is a market for it.  Some schmuck wrote 50 Shades of Grey and made a killing...maybe I'm in the wrong profession, gents.  The Thaylen's have it figured out.)

 

• The merchant blinked.  Nearer the Flame was written from the viewpoint of a man who slowly descended into madness after watching his children starve.  (Shallan asks for Nearer the Flame to start being snarky and sarcastic to the merchant.  What's interesting is that Nearer the Flame is the title of this chapter, Shallan explicitly asks for it, and it's described briefly in the text.  One could argue that Shallan is slowly descending into madness after witnessing (spoiler alert she killed him) of her father. 

 

• "Then perhaps Eternathis will serve you," he said as his wife held up a blue-grey set of four volumes.  "It is a philosophical work which examines [Rosharan history since the Heirocracy] by focusing only on the interactions of the five Vorin kingdoms.  As you can see, the treatment is exhaustive."  (I don't know what to make of this.  A Thaylen casually mentions five Vorin Kingdoms as if it were common knowledge while Shallan, a Vorin herself, is surprised to hear it.  Either way, I love in-world books and wish I could read those too.)

 

• Jasnah held out her hand. "You recall what I said about repeating myself?"  (Ironically, this is almost certainly Jasnah's most repeated line.)

 

 

[back to Table of Contents]

Edited February 21, 2015 by Frosted Flakes

[WeiryWriter he/him]

• Shallan couldn't help but admire the beauty of the doors; their exterior was carved in a intricate geometric pattern with circles and lines and glyphs.  It was some kind of chart, half on each door.  There was no time to study the details, unfortunately, and she passed them by.  (Sounds like the interior art in the physical book.  I think it has something to do with Vorinism, but I'm not confident on that.  The fact that it's so prominently displayed in Kharbranth, however, seems important.  Perhaps the Palanaeum, being buried safely underground, was a repository of knowledge meant to survive the Desolations.)

 

Yeah this was discussed a while back and I believe the consensus that was reached (or at least the decision that I came to) was that they are both depictions of the same thing.  Specifically that thing is "The Double Eye of the Almighty" which is a symbolic representation of the creation of plants and animals (the big glyphs are the Essences--the middle two being plant matter and animal matter respectively) so it is absolutely related at least in part to Vorinism.

 

It also serves as a handy reference as to the Radiants and the surges they have access to.

[skaa he/him]

Chapter Seven: Anything Reasonable

 

• "They are aflame.  They burn.  They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame.  Burn, burn, burn..."  (I wish I knew what this person was seeing.  Skin aflame?  Bringing darkness?  I don't recall Voidbringers being described this way.)

 

Must be one of the Voidbringer forms. I guess this one can absorb all light in the vicinity (making other things seem dark) and convert it to heat energy?

 

 

• "By Vedeledev's golden keys, Brightness!"  (I love in-world curses.  But what on earth are Vedeledev's golden keys?)

 

Intriguing. Which doors do these keys unlock? Are they literal golden keys, or are they a metaphor for one of Vedeledev's powers/privileges? Or is "golden keys" just euphemistic darkeyes slang for... certain female body parts?

Edited February 19, 2015 by skaa

[Lirins hand]

Frosted Flakes, on 15 Feb 2015 - 3:46 PM, said:

• Shallan couldn't help but admire the beauty of the doors; their exterior was carved in a intricate geometric pattern with circles and lines and glyphs.  It was some kind of chart, half on each door.  There was no time to study the details, unfortunately, and she passed them by. (Sounds like the interior art in the physical book.  I think it has something to do with Vorinism, but I'm not confident on that.  The fact that it's so prominently displayed in Kharbranth, however, seems important.  Perhaps the Palanaeum, being buried safely underground, was a repository of knowledge meant to survive the Desolations.)

Yeah this was discussed a while back and I believe the consensus that was reached (or at least the decision that I came to) was that they are both depictions of the same thing.  Specifically that thing is "The Double Eye of the Almighty" which is a symbolic representation of the creation of plants and animals (the big glyphs are the Essences--the middle two being plant matter and animal matter respectively) so it is absolutely related at least in part to Vorinism.

 

It also serves as a handy reference as to the Radiants and the surges they have access to.

 

These doors are what made me think of what Ashir and Geranid are doing - Is this not just a list but the actual written/notated/limiting/binding item that created the 10 orders/10 nahel spren and brought order to the nahel bonds?  And then the mention of other hidden places with similar stores of knowledge:

 

"But the third...well, the Planaeum has the finest collection of tomes and scrolls on Roshar.  More, even, than the Holy Enclave in Valath." 

 

To me it makes sense that these collections of knowledge from ancient times have ties to the thing that brought order to the Nahel bonds and thus created the KR.

[Aleksiel]

Chapter Six:  Bridge Four

 

.....

• Tvlakv spoke with an important-looking lighteyed woman.  She wore her dark hair up in a complex weave, sparkling with infused amethysts, and her dress was a deep crimson.  She looked much as Laral had, at the end.  (I admit that out of everything in Way of Kings, the flashbacks are what I was least interested in.  I was so caught up in the present story that I didn't pay close attention to them.  I had already accepted Kaladin's character and didn't need the flashbacks to flesh him out to me, so I feel like I'm missing something important when he thinks that this lighteyed woman looks like Laral had at the end.  The end of what?  Forgive my ignorance, dear readers.)

 

What I think Kal refers to is Laral's transformation into a typical lighteyed woman - when Roshone came and betrothed her to his son, Laral stopped climbing and started wearing 'proper' lighteye's dresses, doing her hair in a lighteyes fashion, etc.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

These doors are what made me think of what Ashir and Geranid are doing - Is this not just a list but the actual written/notated/limiting/binding item that created the 10 orders/10 nahel spren and brought order to the nahel bonds?  And then the mention of other hidden places with similar stores of knowledge:

 

"But the third...well, the Planaeum has the finest collection of tomes and scrolls on Roshar.  More, even, than the Holy Enclave in Valath." 

 

To me it makes sense that these collections of knowledge from ancient times have ties to the thing that brought order to the Nahel bonds and thus created the KR.

 

 

I'd say no, since despite us, the readers, usually calling it the "Surgebinding chart" that's not the "real" meaning in-world.  It just so happens that Orders are associated with an Essence.  This is why there are those extra lines (i.e. there's not necessarily a connection between Windrunners and Lightweavers but there is between Zephyr and Blood).

 

Also I think people are rather overzealous when it comes to theories relating to Ashir and Geranid's discovery.  Back when we were getting the pre-release chapters quite a few people believed that Shallan taking notes about Pattern was going to prevent him from developing (which obviously was not the case).

 

In Chapter 35 of WoR Rushu relays the discovery to Navani, and mentions that people have only been able to replicate the discovery is with other flamespren.  Which means that it is not as simple as "write a measurement down".

[Frosted Flakes]

Chapter Eight is halfway up...I'm just exhausted and need a break before I finish the whole thing.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

One question, why are you putting the new stuff in old posts?  Why not just put it in a new one (since you are putting links to each entry in the OP).  It's kind of frustrating having to search for the new stuff.  And it puts the discussion out of order (i.e. Chapter 8 has now been inserted in the middle of the Chapter 7 discussion).

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

"Victory! We stand atop the mount!  We scatter them before us!  Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms!  And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn."  (This death rattle sounds as if the words come from a Parshendi.  It would make sense - I subscribe to the theory that the Listeners predate human beings on Roshar, and were displaced by them.)

 

I am personally indecisive on this one being about the Parshendi. Den usually meant to describe a burrow or a hole in the ground. Perhaps if we equate Dawnsingers=Listeners, then maybe(remember the Dawnsingers probably hollowed out the mountain in Kharbranth). The Listeners, I believe, in one of the conversations with Dalinar/Gavilar when they first met, are shown to live in makeshift, above ground structures in the craters of the Shattered Plains. Although, Shallan meets Mraize in Sebarial's camp in a non-natural (ie dug-out) basement that pre-dated the Alethi.

 

As well, when have the Listeners been in a place that burns, or hollow and forlorn? Have they also been in Damnation/Braize? Why do they have orange blood, when all other natural fauna have violet blood on Roshar? Is there WoB explicitly stating Listeners are native to Roshar? Because, if they are not...

 

Unless, when whatever happened that made them lose their souls and songs and turned them into slaveform, sent their souls to Damnation, in the Spiritual afterlife (and there would be fire and burning because they would go their God's afterlife and Odium definitely is not a harp playing, float through clouds type of guy). Don't know how that would work though. Is it even possible?

 

Either that, or this quote is about a different group.

 

Note: I dislike calling them Parshendi. They call themselves the Listeners so I will too.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Kelek's Breath