could Dalinar use armored bridgeman?

[king of nowhere]

Someting I've been thinking every time I read wok. Sadeas send the bridgeman unarmored because they double as bait, and dalinar of course refuses to do the same, so he has to stick to slow chull-pulled bridges. Why he didn't considered armored bridgeman?

Charging the archers with an heavy armor and big shield is no more dangerous than regular fighting, and it would not violate the war codes nor be immoral or honorless. In fact, Sadeas mentioned that he tried armored bridgemen and the parshendi didn't focus them, so those bridgemen would take little or no casualties. For speed sake, the bridgemen could go unarmored until the last plateau, the armors being carried separately to be donned at the last moment.

This tactic would also allow to have specialized, well-trained bridge crews. bridge 4 was much faster than the other bridges because kaladin trained them, but most bridgemen died before they got the chance to build stamina. armored bridgemen would survive for long, would train regularly, and would be well fed. they would be faster even than sadeas' bridges, and that would allow to win more gemhearts with less bloodshed, arriving before the parshendi. being a bridgemen would be a position like any other in the army, not a status of pariah. Basically, it would be better for the army, and wouldn't break any of dalinar's ideals. So why the option was never mentioned?

the only problem i can think of with this idea is that the army would receive a few volleys of arrows when cahrging the plateau, thus taking some extra losses. The chull pulled bridges provide cover for the troops. but the spared lives of the times when dalinar would arrive before the parshendi would by far outwheight those. Anyway, if Dalinar's primary objective was to avoid losses, then he should just avoid plateau runs. He's a general, he need to seize some objectives and he knows some of his soldiers will die for it.

Another chance would be to send the army with bridges like sadeas ones, and send the chull-pulled bridges separately. If dalinar arrives first, he gets the gemheart without losing lives. if he arrives after the parshendi, he stops at the last plateau and waits for the chulls. No bridgeman would have to charge archers, ever. Dalinar still has the same option of chull bridges as before - in fact it would be a bit faster, the time it takes for the army to cross the bridges in intermediate plateaus would be saved, while the time for deploying the bridges and have the chulls cross them would be the same - but he also has a chance of taking the gemheart without fighting.

Why hasn't dalinar done any of those things?

Edited September 9, 2012 by king of nowhere

[Straff Venture he/him]

The chull-driven bridges were huge so Dalinar's men could use them as cover. If you used small bridges with armoured men, the Parshendi would not just focus on the bridges and Dalinar's spearmen would have no moving cover to use.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I actually quite like this idea. We'll see what happens.

[Straff Venture he/him]

I'm not saying its a bad idea, it would probably work very well if put in the situation, I'd like to support the fact, however, that Dalinar is an excellent war tactician and out of all of us he probably knows best

[Aethling he/him]

Yes, Sadeas does admit he tried it, but it didn't work. Remember the first run where they side-held the bridge? Few bridgement bought it, but the expensive, heavily trained foot were decimated.

Dalinar did not like to waste life either way thus his slower crews.

[name_here]

The side-bridge incident was actually largely a disaster all around because most of the bridge crews fell apart and failed to reach the chasm. That completely ruined the initial heavy cavalry charge and got the crossing forces surrounded and obliterated.

That being said, I suspect properly-drilled armored bridgemen and careful timing of the charge over the bridge would result in much lower casualty rates overall. It would be a bit pricy and time-consuming to train for, though. Also, I'm not entirely sure if the Alethi have the Roman-style tower shields that would be needed to make the bridge crew virtually invulnerable to arrow fire while carrying the bridge.

Edited September 9, 2012 by name_here

[Observer]

Don't forget, regardless of armor, running with a bridge is still painful and unethically difficult. It would almost have to be a volunteer job if so.

[Aethling he/him]

They fell apart largely because they tried to imitate it and failed. Even Kaladin admits the disastrous result was his fault for not thinking it through.

[name_here]

It'd probably have worked out if every bridge crew had been properly drilled in the side-carry method. However, only Bridge Four had any prior experience with the method at all, and the problem was compounded when parts of crews tried to switch and the rest of the bridgemen in those crews tried to keep going the normal way. I think the side-carry as a tactic is fundamentally sound assuming trained crews and careful timing to minimize the exposure of the soldiers to Parshendi fire. The assault on the Tower had neither, so it rapidly transformed into a complete disaster.

Also, it would probably be more effective to use a tesudo formation of sorts, with the bridge overhead and a line of shields in front. Though that would probably need a lot more drill to get working.

[happyman he/him]

Huh, lots of good questions being raised here.

I think the biggest barrier to using armored bridge-men is the expense. They would require training and drilling, not to mention innovation in tactics. They would still be more exposed on runs, even with all of this, and thus more likely to die than the average soldier. For most of the Alethi, using slaves was an A-OK of getting around this.

For Dalinar, I don't know. He may be experienced in normal tactics, but this really is a radically different situation. While we are managing to come up with better ideas here, for most of the Alethi, they didn't think they needed new ideas. Most likely, he either just never thought of it. If he did think of it, he probably wasn't able to get the substantial number of people to go along with it which would be needed.

Kaladin, on the other hand, might be able to get such a thing working. But make no mistake. It would take motivation followed by lots of work to get all your ducks in a row before it would work.

[king of nowhere]

of course this strategy, to minimize losses among spearmen, would also need to fit them with bigger shields. sadeas complained that the parshendi focused the army when he gave armors to the bridgemen, so dalinar would need to give his men some better cover. so maybe there is a logistic reason.

for my second idea, however, that of using a regular bridge crew until the last chasm and then get the gemheart if you arrive first, wait the chulls if you arrive second, I see no problem at all. In fact, it is pretty close to what dalinar was already experimenting. And it would require no more than 5 bridge crews, which wouldn't be many men for the logistic of dalinar's army.

[Aethling he/him]

The major concern for Sadeas was cost of the well-trained foot and cavalry. Slaves were readily available and much less expensive. Considering Sadeas has no bridge crews now and Kaladin's new position, the Chulls will probably still remain the most reliable.

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

Given the effectiveness of Bridge Four - discounting other bridges in relation to this point - it'd be interesting to see Kaladin training a contingent of bridge crews for Dalinar with instructions on using the side-carry method. Though that hinges on the idea that Kaladin trusts Dalinar and Dalinar relaxes a few of his ethical stances, neither which I see happening.

Dalinar won't use bridge crews simply because he wouldn't do the job himself, and he doesn't believe in making a man do something his general wouldn't.

[CabbageHead he/him]

Dalinar won't use bridge crews simply because he wouldn't do the job himself, and he doesn't believe in making a man do something his general wouldn't.

There is that. There is also the distinct possibility that bridge crews will not be needed, if Dalinar is appointed Highlord of War. The Alethi already have a system of permanent bridges in place, in areas they don't have to defend. If all ten armies were acting as one in a co-ordinated fashion, they could press much further forward, with fortified plateaus housing heavy garrisons defending bridges, providing field hospital locations, and guarding forward supply dumps. The Alethi are currently besieging an enemy, without the part of a siege where you pin down your enemy.

Edited September 10, 2012 by CabbageHead

[king of nowhere]

Dalinar won't use bridge crews simply because he wouldn't do the job himself, and he doesn't believe in making a man do something his general wouldn't.

That is the point where i disagree. dalinar would not charge enemy archers while unarmored and carrying a bridge, but I see no particular concerns with charging enemy archers while carrying a bridge with heavy armor and large shields. or with carrying a bridge hoping to arrive before the enemy, and waiting the chulls if you don't.

Some may argue that the way bridgemen were worked was inhuman, but that was only because they were underfed and untrained. If they get good meals and good exercice, carrying a bridge is no worse a job than many others in the army.

EDIT

@ cabbagehead: i agree, there is a significant chance dalinar will change the strategy in a way that will make bridges unneeded. maybe building fortified positions in inner plateaus.

Edited September 10, 2012 by king of nowhere

[Observer]

Erm....would YOU charge enemy archers, running for miles over broken lanscape while carrying a bridge that requires 25 men to carry while wearing heavy armor? Doesn't sound like much fun.

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

You seem to forget that even Bridge Four at the height of their physical fitness were still fatigued after carrying a bridge. The bridge is heavy and there's no padding to soften the weight.

If you gave them all heavy armour you'd be adding to the problem, not improving it. Armour, even light, is heavy. Now add the weight of a bridge that requires more than a dozen strong men to lift and they'd move at about the rate of Dalinar's chull-pulled bridges, have to rest frequently, and become tired much faster. Some bridges might not even reach distant plateaus or return back to camp before they're too tired to carry any more.

Train and feed the Bridgemen all you want but the fact that they're run ragged every day is the most unethical complaint it should have. And you think Dalinar would put himself through that, multiple times a day, every day?

Edited September 11, 2012 by Lyrebon

[Voidus]

I think that Kaladins last tactics would be most effective, well-armoured decoys with Parshendi bones to draw the fire from both the army and the bridges, lighter armour for the other bridgemen. If the number of decoys was increased to the point that they were not completely overwhelmed by archers and they were given stronger armour then this seems a sound tactic.

If you gave them all heavy armour you'd be adding to the problem, not improving it. Armour, even light, is heavy. Now add the weight of a bridge that requires more than a dozen strong men to lift and they'd move at about the rate of Dalinar's chull-pulled bridges, have to rest frequently, and become tired much faster. Some bridges might not even reach distant plateaus or return back to camp before they're too tired to carry any more

This problem is solved by simply adding more bridgemen, I believe Kaladin addresses this problem at some point, the lives saved outweigh the cost of fielding more at any one time.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

There is that. There is also the distinct possibility that bridge crews will not be needed, if Dalinar is appointed Highlord of War. The Alethi already have a system of permanent bridges in place, in areas they don't have to defend. If all ten armies were acting as one in a co-ordinated fashion, they could press much further forward, with fortified plateaus housing heavy garrisons defending bridges, providing field hospital locations, and guarding forward supply dumps. The Alethi are currently besieging an enemy, without the part of a siege where you pin down your enemy.

One problem is Chasmfiends assaulting your supply lines. Coordinated and sufficient Shardplate/bearers would be needed along the entire line.

[Kurkistan he/him]

One problem is Chasmfiends assaulting your supply lines. Coordinated and sufficient Shardplate/bearers would be needed along the entire line.

Supply lines? Don’t talk about — supply lines? You kidding me? Supply lines?

Soulcasting is da' bomb as far as supply lines goes, as we discussed here. Hint: It makes them obsolete. Also, I don't get the sense that Chasmfiends are normally in an "assaulting" mood. It's more like, "oh look, squishy" whenever they happen across someone by accident.

EDIT: Also, when people say "supply lines" they don't actually mean unbroken lines of supplies flowing back and forth. If chasmfiends are a real threat, then Shardbearer's could simply accompany caravans which transited on a regular basis.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Kurkistan

[name_here]

The Alethi armies are capable of supporting themselves entirely off Soulcasters as long as they keep up a regular supply of Gemhearts. Merchants provide them with redundancy but are not strictly necessary.

I don't consider working the bridgemen hard to be the main moral issue with using them. People do grueling work for long periods of time on a fairly regular basis. The soldiers themselves get pretty exhausted from force-marching to plateaus and then fighting for hours. Probably the physical labor of just moving the bridge deserves somewhat better pay, but it's not terribly different from performing construction work all day in midsummer. The part where they get sacrificed by the dozens every single battle is the part that Dalinar rightly takes issue with.

It's true that carrying the bridge in armor would be pretty difficult, but it'd be possible to have unarmored bridgemen most of the way and then have a rotating assignment among the heavy infantry companies to do the final assault.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Supply lines? Don’t talk about — supply lines? You kidding me? Supply lines?

Soulcasting is da' bomb as far as supply lines goes, as we discussed here. Hint: It makes them obsolete. Also, I don't get the sense that Chasmfiends are normally in an "assaulting" mood. It's more like, "oh look, squishy" whenever they happen across someone by accident.

EDIT: Also, when people say "supply lines" they don't actually mean unbroken lines of supplies flowing back and forth. If chasmfiends are a real threat, then Shardbearer's could simply accompany caravans which transited on a regular basis.

I did completely overlook Soulcasting. I read the first 3, and will read the whole of that thread later.

But actually your edit is wrong, and especially in a medieval time frame, armies on the move stretch for miles if not days, except for the very brief moments when they bunch to attack one another. With soulcasting you alleviate some of that but the Alethi seem to be importing matériel and manufacturing it at the camps, and then with wounded and troop transport you'd still have long lines, nearly unbroken lines most of the time.

Navy's bunch up, like I think you imagine armies doing, but even modern armies have this problem, even with an airforce. Which is somewhat like what the Alethi have, with the spans(radio) and soulcasting(air lifted supplies). Think of the long times that the bridgemen rest for in the book, transporting only minor, mobile strike forces. Then exponentially expand the necessary transport time and space needed.

I've heard the largest tank battle since WW2 described as really, really bad traffic for hours punctuated by a few minutes of excitement.

[Kurkistan he/him]

I did completely overlook Soulcasting. I read the first 3, and will read the whole of that thread later.

But actually your edit is wrong, and especially in a medieval time frame, armies on the move stretch for miles if not days, except for the very brief moments when they bunch to attack one another. With soulcasting you alleviate some of that but the Alethi seem to be importing matériel and manufacturing it at the camps, and then with wounded and troop transport you'd still have long lines, nearly unbroken lines most of the time.

Navy's bunch up, like I think you imagine armies doing, but even modern armies have this problem, even with an airforce. Which is somewhat like what the Alethi have, with the spans(radio) and soulcasting(air lifted supplies). Think of the long times that the bridgemen rest for in the book, transporting only minor, mobile strike forces. Then exponentially expand the necessary transport time and space needed.

I've heard the largest tank battle since WW2 described as really, really bad traffic for hours punctuated by a few minutes of excitement.

I may well be wrong as regards to supply lines. Still, though, these aren't really going to be armies on the move. It will be a series of relatively close-together forts with occasional supply runs and no pressing need for truly basic resources (food, water, etc.). It might be that you could get away with semi-regular caravans after the setup phase is over.

[king of nowhere]

I did specify that my idea for armored bridgemen involved having the bridgemen run unarmored until the last plateau and wear the armor (brought by other people) at the last moment.

If someone is still not satisfied by that, you could even add two crews per bridge, so that they can take turns at carrying the bridge. In fact, it seems like a good idea that would gain some time, eve if I'm not sure it would be worth the cost of maintaining additional bridgemen. I maintain that carrying a bridge over long distances is no worse than what many people do for a living.

As for assaulting the chasm against archers, when wearing some good armor (one designed specifically for the purpose) it is no more dangerous than fighting as a common soldier. Possibly less so. Personally, I'd rather do that than fighting for real. If dalinar can ask his soldiers to risk their lives in battle, a single charge against archers wearing adequate protection should not be a problem.

[Aethling he/him]

Why risk the lives at all when you have a different method even if it is a bit slower? I have a feeling the gem-style chasm runs are pretty much a thing of the past at this point, especially once Dalinar is named High Prince of War.