Remaining Shards

[Haradion Drogon]

I like the Idea of the Shards dividing into three sections...

I highly doubt that if there is a creator God in the Cosmere, that Adonalsium is that God. We know that Hoid, and by extention Yolen, his planet, existed before the Shattering, and other planets were created afterwards.

But the Power of Creation? Maybe its "left over" magical energy from after the creation of the universe? Leftover power from the big bang? Kind how when the Universe was created, Antimatter anialated matter, but there was some more matter left over with which to construct the Universe as we see it?

I think there is a Greed Shard. Or Averice. and I think it likley that there will be a Shard which represents Interlectual Growth as well.

Maybe the Shards are not "good/bad" as some have suggested, but "Positive and Negetive", like allomancy and hemalurgy?

[Nepene he/him]

As an actual Mormon, I would add to this conversation that most Mormon's view God as being much more powerful than any of the shards or gods shown in Brandon's fiction. Although there are and will probably continue to be philosophical discussions about how powerful He is, the debate floats around the definition of what Omnipotent means, exactly. Although Humans being deified means being given "all that the Father hath," the assumption is that anyone who gets to that point will be exactly as in control as God is, and will be beholden to Him. But that's speculation.

In short, the Cosmere is fiction even for a Mormon. Some themes are related, but they are different as well. People read too much into his religion to find out about his cosmology.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/k0fp8/iama_professional_fantasy_novelist_named_brandon/c2gmfco

3) The concept of men becoming as God is appeals to me in a logical sense. God is all powerful. Therefore, what is the greatest thing he can give to someone else? He could--if he wished--make any being equal to himself. It goes by the definition of being all powerful.

I can understand the protestant argument that this is gross arrogance. However, seen in the light of LDS theology--that we existed before this world, that we grow here, then continue to grow and learn on the other side--it starts to make sense.

Brandon likewise believes God is all powerful. It's clear he dips into theology quite a lot for themes.

[happyman he/him]

Brandon likewise believes God is all powerful. It's clear he dips into theology quite a lot for themes.

Oh, absolutely. Somebody studying his books for themes and culture would be grossly negligent if they didn't include his religion as an influence. The problem is simply when people take his books with only vague knowledge of his religion, they can come to some quite odd conclusions trying to force it the other direction. He knows he's writing fiction.

[realmatist]

Maybe Odium left his world because he couldn't deal with his counterpart there... so he left and went to Roshar. I find it unlikely that Honor and Odium are paired shards. Just a gut feeling.

[Turos he/him]

From the things I've read Mr. Sanderson saying, it seems to me he is more into taking several views of different ideas that do or could exist and putting them into his worlds' settings, then letting them all work around the plot. He seems like the kind of guy who is more interested in making an involved story without letting any character's bias be the 'right one'. When the story of the cosmere is all said and done, I believe the religious qualities of who or whatever created the universe will still be unanswered and people will still be enjoying contemplating it from whatever angles they like.

Each book is a microcosm of the big picture, and all that I've read (all cosmere books to date ) leave things up in the air, but the protagonist learns and develops, the antagonist provides an obstacle that is overcome triumphantly to allow for that growth, and I a put down my copy of the book drooling for any news of the next one.

[grinachu]

I've given this a little thought in the past, but as has been remarked by others, we simply know too few to guess at the rest. However, now that I've told you it's useless to have an opinion on the matter, I'd like to give you mine.

On the "Shard/CounterShard" line of thought, I agree that Devotion would, of the Shards known currently, be the best match for Odium. In the first place, there is the previously mentioned supporting Word of Brandon that, at least in this case, Aona's Shard (Devotion) is a synonym of love. Now, I can understand all the arguments for Honor and others, but honestly, when looking for an antonym to hate, if love is an option, there is little sense in considering much else. Furthermore, the most cogent defense for Honor - a reinterpretation of the meaning of "Odium" from hatred to worthy of hatred - has two fatal flaws: One, such a definition would necessitate a reciprocal meaning for Honor, as "worthy of loyalty." Unfortunately, Honor has not given any indication that this is the case. Rather, he has, as would be predicted by the conventional definition, rewarded any and all honorable actions. The second hole in the idea is simply that "worthy of hatred" does not seem - in my own opinion - to convey the characteristic singularity of purpose found in the other Shards. What sort of decisions would an "Odious" person be inclined to make?

Incidentally, the recategorization of Devotion as love resolves a different issue that I'd been considering: the motivation of Devotion seems too vague. After all isn't Preservation "devoted" to preserving things? If simply being devoted to something were enough, then holding literally any other Shard would put you at the top of the list for Devotion's favored servants. Furthermore, the opposite of devotion would be ambivalence, implying that its Shardholder would have to... fervently not care about things. I'm not exactly sure how you would go about that.

Returning to the topic at hand, I feel that we have too easily allowed ourselves to be duped into thinking that Devotion and Dominion are counterparts, simply because they are on the same Shardworld. While I acknowledge that there is admittedly some friction between their purposes, I do not believe that the two are in direct opposition. I see a much greater enmity between Dominion and Endowment. Endowment is fundamentally oriented toward giving indiscriminately, relinquishing its power wherever it can. Dominion, on the other hand, is about conquest and acquisition, seizing and taking control of anything and everything. These two - giving and taking - seem to be fairly contradictory to me. Furthermore, this means that Devotion must needs look elsewhere for a match... See above.

Based on the completely indefensible assumption that each Shard must have a polar opposite, I have done my best to throw together the following:

Preservation vs. Ruin

Odium vs. Devotion

Endowment vs. Dominion

Honor vs. Deception/Treachery/Corruption/Treason/Cowardice/etc.

Unfortunately, Cultivation's name, out of context, tells us frustratingly little that can actually be trusted. She could stand for anything from life and the boundless growth of nature to the chaining of nature and the progress of civilization. As such, I do not feel confident enough to speculate as to her opposite.

Lastly, I would like to affirm the conviction that in a world this complex, it hardly seems likely that these Shards are simply a random collection of attributes. In fact, I would like to take the notion even further. I feel that Brandon, with his notorious reputation for complex, yet somehow beautifully unified worldbuilding, would not settle for simply sorting the Shards into a number of (in many of the above theories, pretty much arbitrary) categories. It seems far more probable that each individual Shard was chosen very carefully as a true, elemental aspect of reality, such that when taken as a whole, they take on a unified centrality. I'm not sure that the way I worded that will make sense to be anyone but me, so consider the following analogy: I feel that it is far more likely that the Shards would be Red, Blue, and Yellow, as opposed to a random assortment of Green, Yelllow, and Purple or a loosely categorized system of Red with Orange and Blue with Purple. In a sense, I'm saying that even the most rigorous systems suggested so far seem a little too haphazardly put together for Brandon. (Also, the color theory referenced in this analogy is unfounded, simplistic, and extremely outdated. However, despite all of this, it is almost invariably still taught in public elementary schools, so it made a useful bit of common ground upon which to base my explanation. Please do not perpetuate its academic use.)

The most interesting shard so far is Cultivation because we do know that she has influenced cultures like Shinovar and the Horneaters and we know a fair amount about her influence. Insofar as she would have a polar opposite it would be something like degradation or corruption. Something slimy and oily and polluting. I think while not all shards have an opposite there is a definite pairing between them. Devotion and Odium are opposites, as Ruin and Preservation were opposites. I think since Honor's power was in binding things, he and Cultivation together were able to get Odium to agree upon a deal. When those Honor invested with its powers, abandoned the Oathpact, Honor itself became vulnerable and fell to Odium. Cultivation still lives but cannot face Odium herself alone. Jezrien holds a sliver of Honor and reads the storms seeking to difuse Honor's power by way of stormlight but is slowly failing. Meanwhile Odium is getting stronger because of perpetual war in Roshar and is seeking to finally destroy all of Roshar by himself. By uniting the Alethi and then seeking to united humanity, Dalinar is actually strenghtening Odium's hand. It is by murder and warfare and pursuing the Thrill that Odium's power is actually dissipated from his hands.

[Bremen]

I would argue that the opposite of Cultivation is Ruin.

Cultivation seeks to grow and evolve while Ruin seeks to degrade and wear down. Preservation actually sits in between these two neither growing or degrading.

In fact I would say a better opposite for Preservation would be Revolution. Something that seeks to upset the current order and is never satisfied with the result. (Chaos would be a good shard, but its too close in connotation to Ruin, and Preservation would seeks to preserve a chaotic environment. Alteration is another thought)

[CabbageHead he/him]

I would argue that the opposite of Cultivation is Ruin.

Cultivation seeks to grow and evolve while Ruin seeks to degrade and wear down. Preservation actually sits in between these two neither growing or degrading.

Ruin is very general though, destruction or decay that is not specific to particular items, while Cultivation is quite specific; the flourishing of plant life on a landscape. The opposite of Cultivation would be.... Desolation.

[Voidus]

Yeah, Cultivation is about encouraging things which already exist more than creation, if there was a creation Shard I suppose that'd be better matched with Ruin than Preservation but I doubt that that's one of the remaining ones.

[Dros]

Ruin is very general though, destruction or decay that is not specific to particular items, while Cultivation is quite specific; the flourishing of plant life on a landscape. The opposite of Cultivation would be.... Desolation.

I'm not sure Cultivation is only concerned with plant life, I would think it is referring to making anything "better". But remember what Bruce Lee had to say on the matter--"The height of cultivation always runs to its simplicity."

[Bremen]

Cultivation is most often used to refer to living organisms, but one can also cultivate artistic abilities...

I doubt there is a Creation shard as Adonalasium often mentioned as the power of creation.

[thek9 he/him]

Cultivation is most often used to refer to living organisms, but one can also cultivate artistic abilities...

I doubt there is a Creation shard as Adonalasium often mentioned as the power of creation.

 

On the other hand, there was that quote from HoA that "Preservation is not creation".  It could have been just a general reference, or it could have been literal.  Other shards could still create things without being "Creation", just like other shards than Ruin can ruin things, and other shards than Preservation can preserve things.

[Truthless he/him]

Just a side note - we need to be careful about trying to pair off every single shard.

 

 

 

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

 

I think it could easily lead us to some "creative" interpretations of the shard's power and intent so that we can force it into a pet pairing.

[NewbSombrero he/him]

Just a side note - we need to be careful about trying to pair off every single shard.

 

 

 

 

I think it could easily lead us to some "creative" interpretations of the shard's power and intent so that we can force it into a pet pairing.

 

The way he worded that though, I do think maybe they all may have counterparts, just not as directly opposite as Preservation and Ruin. That's how it reads to me anyway.

[Nemuri he/him]

Silence Divine is the cosmere book with the magical germs right? Could the shard on that world be Survival? The sickness survives inside the body for a time and in exchange gives the host magical abilities to survive while they're under the weather. This could also be the shard that just wants to hide.

[Windrunner he/him]

Personally, I don't think that Shard on the Silence Divine world (Man, I hope we get a name for that in WoR...) is the Shard that just wants to hide and survive. Presumably, what it's hiding from is Odium, who is on a planet in the same exact solar system. Not exactly a great hiding place; they only way it could be closer to Odium is if it actually was on Roshar. It just doesn't make sense to me. On the other hand, if the Shard isn't hiding from Odium, that opens up a whole host of interesting questions.

[lordofsoup]

But how can a Shard hide?  If I understand them correctly, they radiate power to a degree that they attract all sorts of interesting people, aka 17 shard members and Hoid.  It seems like the only thing that can hid them is distance, and even if the Cosmere was constantly expanding like our universe is, Shadesmare makes it even more difficult.  

[ROSHtafARian]

Reviving this, because my thoughts are the same as Nemuri:  the Shard on the Silence Divine world is the one that just wants to hide and survive.  Any Shard with that Intent would doubtless be pretty sneaky, and it does fit with how Brandon's described the germ based magic of that world.  So what if that planet is actually the perfect hiding spot, because its close enough to Roshar that any traces of its Investiture or whatever other power emanates from a Shard is masked by the much more powerful emanations and Investiture happening on Roshar....and its far enough away that its safe from being detected by any other means? 

 

Secretion might describe such a shard, as well as the obvious biological implications of that word, it means to conceal for protection.  Alternatively, other names for the Silence Divine shard could be Evolution or Adaptation.

[Darklight66675]

I'm guessing theres a 'love' or 'virtue' to counteract odium

Devotion.

[Kaurne]

Reviving this, because my thoughts are the same as Nemuri:  the Shard on the Silence Divine world is the one that just wants to hide and survive.  Any Shard with that Intent would doubtless be pretty sneaky, and it does fit with how Brandon's described the germ based magic of that world.  So what if that planet is actually the perfect hiding spot, because its close enough to Roshar that any traces of its Investiture or whatever other power emanates from a Shard is masked by the much more powerful emanations and Investiture happening on Roshar....and its far enough away that its safe from being detected by any other means? 

 

Secretion might describe such a shard, as well as the obvious biological implications of that word, it means to conceal for protection.  Alternatively, other names for the Silence Divine shard could be Evolution or Adaptation.

 

When did Brandon describe the magic on Silence Divine?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Interviews. It's the bacteria one

[Kaurne]

Okay, my two pence.

 

Brandon has said that not all Shards are perfectly opposed to each other, but I do get the impression that there are pairings, to some extent.

 

Preservation and Ruin are almost perfect opposites. While I prefer the idea of a Creation-Presevation-Destruction triangle, I still think they're as close opposites as we can think of.

 

In addition, I think another key point is this: They are the simplest and easiest to understand of the shards. Ruin ruins things, Preservation preserves things. You can go into a bit more detail about it - how Ruin is essentially a sentient force of entropy etc, but that is the gist of it. We understand Ruin and Preservation better than we understand any of the other Shards, because we get the perspective of two characters wielding them (one of whom makes quite a few notes about it) and also have quite a few long conversations with another wielder.

 

We don't have anywhere near this understanding with the other six shards we know of, since half of them are Splintered and we haven't encountered the other three. However, I'm going to postulate something here:

 

The Intent/Purpose/Ideal of a Shard is far more complex than we would believe. The single word names deceive us, I think, into assuming the concept the shard represents can be explained simply (the fact that the only two Shards we've really interacted with are two of the simplest reinforces this view).

 

In shorter terms, the Shards represent incredibly complex concepts that are simplified into one word, which by nature doesn't give us the whole picture. It's a bit like how Terry Pratchett describes quantum physics, where we're trying to explain the subtle workings of the universe in a language evolved to shout at apes in the next tree.

 

So, defining them exactly is difficult.

 

Now, I think that Devotion, Dominion, Honor and Odium form a group of four, but they don't have clearly defined 'opposites'. An argument can be made that Honor and Odium are opposites; Honor binds things together, Odium drives them apart. Odium certainly seems more based around causing strife from what we've seen of his influence in Roshar, whereas the concept of unity is what honourable people can achieve. Devotion and Dominion can be looked at through a lens of unity as well: Devotion unites through peace, Dominion unites through force (remember that conversations about religion in Elantris when it contrasts how the original Shu-religion was based around unity of thought, but that was changed into unity of love for the one worshipped in Arelon and untiy of obedience for Shu-Dereth? Yeah, I have a feeling that's more important that it first appeared).

 

On the other hand, a reasonable (perhaps more reasonable) argument can be made that Odium and Devotion are opposites; love and hate. In addition, Honor and Dominion can represent the two ways of leading people; Honor is focused around leading by consent, by being a leader your men chosoe to follow and want to. Dominion focuses on forcing people to follow you. Devotion and Odium revolve around relations between equals, Honor and Dominion revolve around relations between people in unequal positions.

 

There is also a faint way of seeing Devotion and Honor as opposites; Devotion is about liking/being unified with someone because of who they are; Honor is about liking/being unified with someone because of what they do. Odium and Dominion is less concrete... I'm still working that out, any thoughts?

 

With that in mind, I'd be tempted to classify them not as two pairs but as a group of four interrelated concepts. I think they all share the fact that they are related, in some way, to the concept of Unity (perhaps that would be the way one would describe someone who took up more than one of these shards). However, they are all also fundamentally about how sentients interact with the world; what they believe and what their deeds are. It's tricky to name this 'group' but I do think it's a group of four.

 

Obviously, it might be a bigger group containing other, as yet unknown shards, but I can't leave spaces based on where I think things should go - I'm no Mendelev. However, the fact that four seems to be an important Cosmere number suggests I might be onto something. Especially since I'd reckon that if there were 'groupings' of Shards, each would be the same size, so that only leaves 4 or 8 as the possible sizes, and these four shards fit together well.

 

As for the others... they're an odd bunch. Ruin and Preservation go in their own group, sure, but I'm not sure about Cultivation or Endowment, although Cultivation does sound like she might fit into the same group as Ruin and Preservation...

 

Finally, None of the Shards are good or evil, they just are. Brandon has said that on multiple occasions it depends on your point of view. It's entirely possible to see Honor is a somewhat negative light, although most would accept he has good intentions. Odium SEEMS evil, but Brandon has pulled that one on us before.

 

Possible other Shards? If we're looking for rough opposites of Cultivation and Endowment, then Corruption and Deprivation fit. Other than that, I don't really know, though Corruption does sound like it could be a Shard. I can imagine a Shard called Sacrifice that could fit in a group with Endowment and/or Cultivation. Isn't there the suggestion that one of the Shards is called Survival? That bacteria based magic system sounds an awful lot like one Survival would generate...

 

Just a few thoughts.

[Mister_Fawx]

My biggest thought concerning the Shard controversy is that we assume that the Shards are grouped at all. Yes, some have opposites, but there can't be a perfect opposite to all of the Shards that exist now, only ones that seem to be opposite when considered in a certain light. I'm sure you could make arguments to the effect that all of the Shards are opposite of all of the others in some way or another.

The general idea I get is that all of the Shards are aspects of Adonalsium, which was once all of these different Intents or Facets united in one supposed being or tool. They're all things that we as living beings are capable of, and activities that we engage in. We have the capability for Devotion and Odium as part of our emotions; we can be forces of Ruin and Preservation based on our choices; we can have Honor; we can engage in Cultivation and Endowment upon one another within our families or societies. All of these are aspects of Life itself, and when Adonalsium was Shattered, each facet was separated from the others.

The fact that Ruin and Preservation unite into Harmony is because of the joint force created by the union of the two. I'm sure that Ruin and Odium held by one person would result in a different joint term, as would the pairing of any two Shards. A union of three or more might have more terms, but that seems like it could start to get complicated. As is, the two Shards being held by one person was an incredibly unlikely eventuality to begin with, and is therefore more of a miracle than anything. I doubt that any other pair will be held by a single bearer in the future.

In any case, the purpose of any and all of the Shards while separated will always result in flawed creations, where united they can create more whole beings and systems within the universe. Many of the Shardworlds existed prior to the Shattering, and I tend to doubt that the separate shards could create whole worlds and star systems without the balance that the full union of Adonalsium had. And if Hoid is out to unite the Shards, then his conversation with Dalinar in WoK about gibberish brings to light his potential fear that reuniting the Shards won't result in the proper balance that they held before the Shattering. Maybe uniting Adonalsium will create a Gibletish monster creation that doesn't match up to the original Adonalsium as it once was.

I like the idea that Adonalsium was not the essence of the Creator's power, but just a tool he used to create. It would make more sense to be an abandoned tool that is being misused, rather than some deity having been overthrown and destroyed by his creations, who supposedly held no great power of their own before the Shattering.

[ROSHtafARian]

This remains one of my favorite topics, because what's more fun than totally baseless speculation, right?  Woohoo!

 

Anyway, thought of some more possible culprits.  Pretty much the only thing we have to go on for sure is that all Shards have an Intent or purpose that drives them, and eventually reshapes their holder's personality into a reflection of said intent or purpose.  Similarly, we also know that all magic systems are accessed or 'keyed' by acting with, making use of, or somehow matching that Intent.  Ie Surgebinding requires acting with honor, allomancy is triggered by preserving one's own life, awakening requires an endowment of breath, the Shaod seems to take those with extreme devotion to be Elantrians, etc.  

 

With all that in mind, I propose:

 

Invention: 

 

The production (of something useful) for the first time through the use of the imagination or of ingenious thinking and experimentation

 

Such a Shard might be in a similar grouping as Cultivation, with an Intent to take whatever resources available and use them to create something new or useful.  I could see a technology based magic system that required creating something or recombining things into new configurations in order to access it.

 

Inspiration:

 

a : a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation

 

b : the action or power of moving the intellect or emotions

 

c : the act of influencing or suggesting opinions

 

Such a Shard might be in a grouping with either Devotion or Endowment, with an Intent to trigger or motivate people to act, change, or create, etc.  I could see a magic system that was most accessible to artists, politicians, war leaders, people who were most likely to have an influential effect on other people.

 

Revolution:

 

a : a sudden, radical, or complete change

 

b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially :the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed

 

c : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation

 

d : a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm <the Copernicanrevolution>

 

e : a changeover in use or preference especially in technology <the computer revolution> 

 

Such a Shard might be grouped with Dominion, but also possibly with Cultivation.  It could even be complementary with Preservation, in the same way Brandon described Cultivation as Ruin's complement.  With an Intent to act as a catalyst for change, to keep things from becoming stagnant, or to challenge the status quo.  I could see a magic system that required someone to change their personal paradigms, or how they looked at something.  The equivalent of an Allomancer 'snapping' on Revolution's world might be when something happens to cause them to look at the world or their society in an entirely different way, a way that motivates them to act as an agent of change.

[Jaaaaaade]

I put this under a different topic the other day, (didn't see this one) but my guesses are Glory and Freedom. 

 

'Honour and Glory' works as a phrase, but they're still very different. Honour is more like respect for what others deserve, or for agreements, while Glory is about awe and achievement.

 

Freedom and Dominion would be a pair, but unlike Ruin and Preservation, they could exist without each other. I imagine it would find a planet of it's own, free from other shard's influence, and grant humans the ability to fly, or to have out of body experiences. The people could be nomadic, without any centralised power. It'd be a very, very different setting to the other Cosmere worlds, or anything else in the fantasy genre; no kingdoms or oppression. That's why I'm not sure this one will work, something else would have to throw off the peace.