The Knights Radiant

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

On the back of the book, there is that part where it says "the Knights Radiant must rise again". But what if that is just metaphorical? What if, instead, the Knights Radiant are actually referring to 10 Highprinces, leading the 10 Orders. So their army are the "new KR" except without the powers or honor or radiance. And then the (new) KR and the Voidbringers fight in one of the later books. After all, the Final Desolation was not totally the last—if Jasnah Kholin is right, the Voidbringers are the Parshendi—and one Azish person had that death call:

They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied! The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.

The Everstorm comes. And so the (new metaphorical) KR rise to stop them. Dalinar and his troops are the New Windrunners (blue) and Kaladin (Windrunner in training) is with them. S of the others, we don't know.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Stroniax

[Trizee]

That's plausible, but highly unlikely. I know Brandon likes pulling off twists, but usually his twists make things more awesome, not less. Besides, if the KR had difficulty fighting the Voidbringers, I'm not sure what simple Alethi troops could do against them.

[Glaring at the Survivor he/him]

True.

And to the topic of Voidbringers, I think Jasnah was correct to an extent—the Voidbringers are like advanced Parshmen. But they're even more so than the Parshendi. Otherwise, why would the Knights Radiant have to had come, not just normal soldiers?

[Trizee]

I think the Voidbringers might be like elite Parshendi, maybe with certain magical abilities, bein the equivalent of the KR. However, it could just be that the Voidbringers were plain old Parshendi, and the KR were needed to fight the other creatures that came with the Desolations- Thunderclasts and stuff.

[Voidus]

Because in past Desolations all the normal soldiers were killed off by the Parshmen who turned into Parshendi? It's possible that only the KR remembered each Desolation that this would happen (Although why they wouldn't share that info is a mystery) and so the rest of the worlds armies were all severely battered before the Desolations really begun.

[Arran]

Because in past Desolations all the normal soldiers were killed off by the Parshmen who turned into Parshendi? It's possible that only the KR remembered each Desolation that this would happen (Although why they wouldn't share that info is a mystery) and so the rest of the worlds armies were all severely battered before the Desolations really begun.

Even if the Knights Radiant didn't share the info, I find it really strange that throughout history the rest of the world never found reliable a means to warn future generations that the Parshmen would someday turn into Parshendi. I attributed the fact that current-day Roshar didn't know about the Parshmen threat to the Radiants' disappearance since the last Desolation and the length of time since that event. Hmm, perhaps Odium's agents also played a hand in this by destroying all the direct warnings of the Parshmen threat they could find, and thus insuring that even obscure allusions to the Parshmen threat could only be re-discovered through the focused research of a scholar.

[dionysus]

Do we have any evidence that there were parshmen in between previous desolations, or maybe more specifically parshmen who were a willing workforce? The only evidence I can recall is what Jasnah says, and I consider her to be unreliable in this as she is working with very limited information.

[Windrunner he/him]

There has been destruction of written knowledge in the past. One of Jasnah's notes makes reference to a burning of the original Palaeneum, losing most of its records. Although, that does somewhat hinge on whether it was destroyed during a Desolation or not.

[Riddlesinthedark he/him]

Although I'm not fond of the "Parshendi=Voidbringers" theory, possibly they were recruited because the Heralds said that they had won, and the Silver Kingdoms desperately needed manpower.

Edited October 5, 2012 by Voldy

[Arran]

Although I'm not fond of the "Parshendi=Voidbringers" theory, possibly they were recruited because the Heralds said that they had won, and the Silver Kingdoms desperately needed manpower.

I like this theory, especially if Parshendi revert to being Parshmen after a Desolation's end. If the Heralds told the Knights Radiant and the rest of humanity that they had triumphed for all time before breaking the Oathpact, then humankind might have felt confident about making their former foes into servants since they believed there would never again be another Desolation that would turn their faithful servants into implacable foes.

[Zenith]

I like this theory, especially if Parshendi revert to being Parshmen after a Desolation's end. If the Heralds told the Knights Radiant and the rest of humanity that they had triumphed for all time before breaking the Oathpact, then humankind might have felt confident about making their former foes into servants since they believed there would never again be another Desolation that would turn their faithful servants into implacable foes.

That makes sense, more so than other theories of the sort I've seen.

[Gloom he/him]

In regards to the Parshmen, I think the evidence is pointing towards them as a new developement in the scheme of things. Before this they were all Parshendi.

 

I do have a question about the Knights Radiant though.

 

What evidence do we have that every order of the Knights Radiant relied on Honor Spren? We know that there are a large variety of spren. If all the orders use the same spren type, why the different colors? I inferred that they would each have their own oaths, and that Kaladin spoke the oath for his order. The blue KR seemed pretty certain that Dalinar would be accepted into an order due to his skills and his actions, but Dalinar never attracted honor spren, so maybe, he would have been inducted into a different order. Honor is certainly a noble attribute, but it isn't the only one. What about orders that value other attributes, like truth, justice, duty, loyalty, etc? Wouldn't it be likely that more than one type of spren could create a knight radient?

[Shardlet he/him]

There actually is evidence which suggests that there are more that honorspren in play for the KR.  In Dalinar's Nohadon vision, Nohadon laments that not all spren (referring to spren which form Nahel bonds) are as discerning as honorspren.  Further, Jasnah describes that all radiant abilities come from spren bonds.  This is in conjunction with discussion of the cryptics that Shallan sees in her drawings.  I have theorized that each spren seeks a different attribute in its bondee.  The only one we have any particular info on so far is honorspren.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited August 7, 2013 by Shardlet

[Crysanja]

maybe they use only honor spren, i mean the knights radiant are creating powerfull weapons.

you want to safeguard the use of thouse weapons, and honor spren maybe would require you to stay true to the knight radiants or doing good stuff.

 

this staying true to the cause could be in connection to the  laying down of the shards too, which dalinar saw in a vision.

 

 

so there could be ppl using spren for magic, but not be part of the knights radiant in a large number.

hehe funny! all i read was the powers of spren in connection with the knights radiant, but why should everyone with spren bonds want to be a radiant?

[hoser he/him]

/>On the back of the book, there is that part where it says "the Knights Radiant must rise again". But what if that is just metaphorical? What if, instead, the Knights Radiant are actually referring to 10 Highprinces, leading the 10 Orders. So their army are the "new KR" except without the powers or honor or radiance. And then the (new) KR and the Voidbringers fight in one of the later books.

This is a really interesting theory. I find it somewhat jarring.

The book back also says:

/>The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

I believe that Brandon has said that the series involves the return of magic.

If magic doesn't end up being involved significantly, then much of the first book is a non-sequitur.

/> but why should everyone with spren bonds want to be a radiant?

Once the Radiants exist, they are much more powerful than ordinary Surgebinders because of the oaths. The Radiants would suppress any surgebinders who were not honorable.

Kaladin is sworn to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Is he going to just ignore unethical surgebinders using their powers to oppress people?

If you are ethical, why wouldn't you oath up and become more powerful?

Edited August 7, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet he/him]

Once the Radiants exist, they are much more powerful than ordinary Surgebinders because of the oaths. The Radiants would suppress any surgebinders who were not honorable.

Kaladin is sworn to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Is he going to just ignore unethical surgebinders using their powers to oppress people?

If you are ethical, why wouldn't you oath up and become more powerful?

 

I think the Radiants are centered around the ideals rather than the ideals being centered around the radiants.  Consider, the words of the ideals come to the mind of the speaker spontaneously (i.e., not taught to or trained to).  The ideals appear to be a built-in part of the Nahel bond that is not absolutely linked to each order of the KR.  For example, Kaladin speaks the second ideal at the tower, yet he is not a member of the KR since the KR do not exist anymore.  The second ideal was a natural result of his progression along with his bond to Syl.  So, unofficial radiants can exist external to the organization of the KR as established by the Heralds.

 

That being said, I would expect that any nahel bonded proto-radiant would be drawn to the KR once they are re-established in whatever form they are re-formed into.  Some orders likely more so than others depending on the particular traits which are idealized by each class of spren involved.

 

I doubt a ronin-radiant would last very long (in terms of years, not days or months) without his/her progression halting or diminishing.

[Gloom he/him]

I think the Radiants are centered around the ideals rather than the ideals being centered around the radiants.  Consider, the words of the ideals come to the mind of the speaker spontaneously (i.e., not taught to or trained to).  The ideals appear to be a built-in part of the Nahel bond that is not absolutely linked to each order of the KR.  For example, Kaladin speaks the second ideal at the tower, yet he is not a member of the KR since the KR do not exist anymore.  The second ideal was a natural result of his progression along with his bond to Syl.  So, unofficial radiants can exist external to the organization of the KR as established by the Heralds.

 

That being said, I would expect that any nahel bonded proto-radiant would be drawn to the KR once they are re-established in whatever form they are re-formed into.  Some orders likely more so than others depending on the particular traits which are idealized by each class of spren involved.

 

I doubt a ronin-radiant would last very long (in terms of years, not days or months) without his/her progression halting or diminishing.

 

I'm in favor of this theory based on Dalamars dreams in regards to the loss of the Knights Radiant. If there was ever a time that Knights Radiant would go ronin, this was it. Instead, all the Knights Radiant acted as one and disbanded as a whole. What isn't clear from the dream is if they lost their surgebinding ability, but I'm leaning towards the idea that they gave up everything. Once the Knights Radiant abandoned the people, or were abandoned by the people depending on your POV, no one wanted to pursue their ideaology.

[Crysanja]

ok i think there is some combat training/skill neccessary to become a radiant back then.

what about the ppl with bonds which cant fight?

if they are too

-old (to learn combat/be effection combatons)

-sick

-handicapped

-weak

 

they are all killed/put into prison/forced to become a radiant?

we can be sure there was magic use, of thouse ppl which were not part of the raidants.

they were not evil or bad ppl because of it.

 

we are just focused on the radiants, because we need a powerfull group of ppl able to fight back.

there were propably other non radiant organisations too, maybe with the same powers, maybe with different ones.

[Gloom he/him]

ok i think there is some combat training/skill neccessary to become a radiant back then.

 

We know from what Sil said to Kaladin that she was attracted to him by the way his men felt about him. I think Honorspren, like all other spren, are drawn by circumstances.

 

what about the ppl with bonds which cant fight?

 

Honorspren are unlikely to be drawn to an honorable scholar because a scholar is unlikely to engender the same kinds of emotions in his peers. This being said, I think it's possible, but more of an exception than a rule. In the event this happened, I feel it would still be likely they would be drawn to their respective orders, but would take support positions rather than act as front line fighters. Honestly though, even the weakest surgebinder is still more dangerous than a healthy human who isn't one.

 

EDIT: Spelling

Edited August 8, 2013 by Gloom

[hoser he/him]

The ideals appear to be a built-in part of the Nahel bond that is not absolutely linked to each order of the KR.  For example, Kaladin speaks the second ideal at the tower, yet he is not a member of the KR since the KR do not exist anymore.  The second ideal was a natural result of his progression along with his bond to Syl.  So, unofficial radiants can exist external to the organization of the KR as established by the Heralds.

 

I doubt a ronin-radiant would last very long (in terms of years, not days or months) without his/her progression halting or diminishing.

I generally agree with this post, but would like to make a possibly pedantic distinction. 

I think the Nahel Bond and the oaths are both part of the inherent magic system.  So the oaths are not part of the Nahel Bond, but they are both part of something larger.  The choice to fight at the Tower was one of the acts that qualified him for the power-up. 

 

Is a Radiant a Radiant because of the oaths and abilities or because they are part of an organization, or both?  I don't really care about the official definition.  Kaladin and maybe Jasnah are proto-radiants and that's enough for me. 

ok i think there is some combat training/skill neccessary to become a radiant back then.

what about the ppl with bonds which cant fight?

if they are too

-old (to learn combat/be effection combatons)

-sick

-handicapped

-weak

 

they are all killed/put into prison/forced to become a radiant?

we can be sure there was magic use, of thouse ppl which were not part of the raidants.

they were not evil or bad ppl because of it.

 

we are just focused on the radiants, because we need a powerfull group of ppl able to fight back.

there were propably other non radiant organisations too, maybe with the same powers, maybe with different ones.

Well, I know nothing.  But I tend to agree with your point here. 

 

While apparently the armor does make up for a lot of physical infirmity, there must come a point where one can't fight.  If you are a retired knight, are you still a Radiant?  Would Syl would abandon Kaladin just because he got old? 

 

Consider if you were a surgebinder and just used your power without doing harm, but weren't interested in doing good, like, say, going from town to town barnstorming and showing off your powers to make a living.  From Kaladins highstorm dream, maybe the Radiants can detect when powers are being used, but as long as you are not doing harm, they might not force you to stop. 

 

This actually bears on Nohadon's speech where he wishes that all spren were as discerning as honorspren.  For windrunners, there probably isn't an option.  Kaladin won't attract an honorspren like Syl unless he acts honorably. 

 

But consider Shallan in the case where she is forming a bond with a cryptic.  Her outstanding attributes are her art and her budding scholarship.  Both strong intellectual accomplishments, but not particularly honorable or good (not to say that Shallan won't be heroic, just that the cryptic might bond with her regardless).  So maybe the cryptics are one of the less discerning types of spren.  I could imagine a choice for such a oerson where they could just do art or scholarship and soulcast a bit, but not want to commit to being a Radiant.  Unless such a person was doing harm, I doubt the Radiants would imprison them (although they might hire them). 

[Gloom he/him]

In regards to the Parshmen, I think the evidence is pointing towards them as a new development in the scheme of things. Before this they were all Parshendi.

 

Of course, the best argument I've found against this being true is the following quote from the opening of chapter 30.

 

"They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." - This fragment is the origin of the Thaylan proverb that was eventually reworked into a more common derivation. I believe it may reference the voidbringers. See Ixsix's Emperor, fourth chapter.

 

If this were to be interpreted with what we currently know, it could mean that the Parshendi are a new or rather reoccurring development, and that after a desolation, Parshmen were the norm. Only during times leading to a desolation would the Parshmen begin recovering forms, or perhaps that is only when those who remember the forms make contact with human society.

 

Okay, enough off topic speculation.

 

I'm of the opinion that Alethelar was the primary focus of the warrior class for the silver kingdoms because that is where a majority of the bonding spren existed. This made it more likely that someone from Alethelar would encounter a bonding spren than someone from outside of Alethelar. We know that spren can be territorial from the Alespren.

 

This leads to additional speculation about spren of course. Are all spren of the same type the same? If we can relate spren to the animal kingdom, or even better, the insect kingdom, then the answer would be no. Ants in one region of the world are different and may even fill different ecological niches than ants in another region, but they are still ants. Some insects exist only in certain regions, while other can be found nearly everywhere. Spren, may behave in a similar manner.

[XylophoneXaniac]

Speaking of the Knights Radiant, I have a question which may have already been asked but you never know.

You may be familiar with the Front Endsheet depicting the glyphs whisc symbolise the ten orders of the knights radiant and the ten surges. Now we definetly know one order: Windrunners and two surges: Atmospheric Pressure and Gravity. So where are they on the Endsheet? Is this known or is this a question we have to ask Brandon himself?

[Shardlet he/him]

We have little if any detail about the endsheet chart.  It is a reproduction of a stained-glass window.  As to the specific meaning, I don't know of any solid info.  Many have theorized it is a chart for voidbinding.

[Azul he/him]

Speaking of the Knights Radiant, I have a question which may have already been asked but you never know.

You may be familiar with the Front Endsheet depicting the glyphs whisc symbolise the ten orders of the knights radiant and the ten surges. Now we definetly know one order: Windrunners and two surges: Atmospheric Pressure and Gravity. So where are they on the Endsheet? Is this known or is this a question we have to ask Brandon himself?

We know for sure that the top right is Windrunning so the two surges connected to it would be pressure and gravity.  Its speculated that the lower of the two is likely pressure as its connects to Nalan's symbol and his essense is Vapor.  here is a nice chart someone made up, its a bit old so new info may be out that i'm missing.  http://tinypic.com/r/2w6w9xt/5

[junior]

There actually is evidence which suggests that there are more that honorspren in play for the KR.  In Dalinar's Nohadon vision, Nohadon laments that not all spren (referring to spren which form Nahel bonds) are as discerning as honorspren.  Further, Jasnah describes that all radiant abilities come from spren bonds.  This is in conjunction with discussion of the cryptics that Shallan sees in her drawings.  I have theorized that each spren seeks a different attribute in its bondee.  The only one we have any particular info on so far is honorspren.

 

Edit: spelling

 

Alright.  I just had a completely "way out there, no way that this is even possible" idea.

 

We don't know anything about what Jasnah has bonded with, but her surprise at seeing Shallan's truth spren seems to suggest that Jasnah is bonded with something different from what Shallan is bonded with.  What if Jasnah bonded with some form of death spren?

 

Now admittedly, we don't know if this is even possible.  But it might help explain that odd scene in which Jasnah deliberately sets herself up as bait for a group of thugs.  If she's bonded with a death spren, then that scene isn't Jasnah deciding to play vigilante for the sake of being a vigilante.  Rather, she needs deaths to maintain the bond with her spren, and the only way that she can do that in any sense that's even remotely ethical is through setting herself up as bait for a group of criminals...  at which point she can kill them and legitimately claim self defense.

 

How she would actually have created a bond with such a creature is, admittedly, beyond me.  Perhaps its a "lawful execution" spren?

Edited August 17, 2013 by junior