Region-Locked Magic

[Windrunner he/him]

Yeah, those are all great arguments. The bottom line for me is, as was mentioned above, skeletals can't exist naturally, it's not believeable, so if it was Forgery, it shouldn't work. If the wrong type of glass, or a bad motivation are enough to screw with a Forgery, I think walking skeletons would too.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

Because mobile living bone is not possible. You could forge bones into a living creature, maybe, but without the intervention of magic bones could not become mobile semi-living creatures. People paint walls, so stamping a wall into being painted is possible. Forging a skeletal would be like stamping airplane wreckage and flying it around without giving it engines. Forget the history, that's not the problem, the result simply is not possible absent calling in another magic system. Also, the blood ward on the room and the blood-tracking are not really like Forging at all except for requiring stamps and "ink". At most, Bloodsealing is Forging things into having been affected by another magic system, unless Shai is drastically wrong about the underpinnings of her own magic system, which is admittedly possible.

I'm not saying Shai is wrong -- I am saying she doesn't explain everything there is to know about Forging.

Shaizan threatened the Bloodsealer with a sample of his blood. She may have been bluffing, and furthermore the Shaizan stamp contains a history of becoming a fierce tribal warrior instead of learning Forging. The accuracy of the statement is questionable. Plus the blood would be unusable for Bloodsealing before he could repair his skeletals anyway. Shai was planning to get away clean while leaving behind the 26-hour old blood on the ward

True, Shaizan isn't an authority on Forging, but I still think the Bloodsealer's reaction (or more accurately, lack thereof) is telling. Then again, that could easily be because she just smashed his skeletons with her bare hands (and forehead).

Also, bloodsealing requires the subject's blood, and the skeletals need the skeletons to be "intact", but not necessarily comprised of bone. Specifically, the ribs had been repaired. People can live and move with missing ribs.

It requires the subjects blood, but I think that is because of how the stamp is carved: it just uses it to target Shai. If blood is the best medium for tracking, then it makes perfect sense to create a stamp that targets people based on the blood the stamp is used with.

Oh, and Shai seems to be romanticizing the wall and window a bit. The stamps she made before noticing the stained glass would not have included it previously being a stained-glass window and hence not matched reality well enough. Likewise, the revised history for the wall to be painted was actually pretty simple and plausible; instead of a bedridden visitor painting the wall a floor up, he was put into the room and painted the wall in it instead.

You're dismissing things Shai specifically says is how Forging works, one of which she links directly to the Spiritual Realm, based on your interpretation that she is romanticizing?

Gaotona disagreed with your assessment that it was "simple and plausible", and even Shai says it is "on the line... that line where the greatest beauty is found".

Windrunner: The wrong type of glass just meant it wouldn't take. We don't know if the Bloodsealer has to restamp the skeletons.

Kurkistan: Yeah, I think mostly we are arguing semantics. I say Bloodsealing fits under Forging, and you say they both fit under a broader umbrella--an overarching magic system, I suppose. Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited December 5, 2012 by lDanielHolm

[happyman he/him]

I think that Kurkistan is right. Forging is, stated simply, rewriting (or, perhaps, temporarily overwriting) an objects past. That's the only way we see it manifest in any of its forms. The details are complicated and the applications amazingly rich, but none of it contradicts this simple essence.

Bloodsealing, from what we can see, never overwrites anythings past. It can track Shai using her blood, which has everything to do with the present and nothing to do with the past. It can create skeletals which will track Shai. As others have said repeatedly, this is not a natural state for skeletons to be in, in any form. I agree with others who say that the bloodsealer is apparently connected to the skeletals in some way; this manifestation of magic is nothing like anything we have seen elsewhere in the Cosmere. It certainly has nothing to do with Forging as Shai practices it; Shai's forgeries will work indefinitely for anyone who can get ahold of her stamp and some ink, and a plausible target, with her none the wiser.

Literally, the only thing Bloodsealing and Forgery appear to have in common are the fact that they use stamps. Given that both are magic systems on Sel, this is less impressive than it sounds; all magic systems we have seen in Sel use symbols (perhaps geography-based symbols) to perform their work. So all we have left in common is that they both use stamps to make the symbols they use. That is a very weak connection indeed.

In short, I feel that for most people, calling them different magic systems makes much more sense. Shai's ignorance about the Bloodsealer is a much better explanation, I feel.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Windrunner: The wrong type of glass just meant it wouldn't take. We don't know if the Bloodsealer has to restamp the skeletons.

Kurkistan: Yeah, I think mostly we are arguing semantics. I say Bloodsealing fits under Forging, and you say they both fit under a broader umbrella--an overarching magic system, I suppose. Let's just agree to disagree. :P/>/>/>

Okay, I think we're wrapping up here (thanks Windrunner and happyman), so a few closing comments.

First, it can be the case that a stamp doesn't "take" to such an extent that it never even works at all, for any length of time. Such as the stamp for Ashravan's motivation for becoming emperor never even "stamping" Gaotona the first try. I think "body: animate" would be such an improbable, non-starting stamp.

Second, the only real "overarching magic system" I propose is the Cosmere as a whole and the nature of magic on Sel in particular, not some superset {Forging, Bloodsealing} that is a magic system in and of itself. I think that to say that Bloodsealing "fits under Forging" is just about as wrong as to say that Hemalurgy "fits under" Feruchemy.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Kurkistan

[name_here]

It's also possible that they're two different magic systems but natives of the area can use both. Shai believes anyone can use Forging if they learn how, though I'm inclined to suspect that only natives of the area actually can because Sel magic systems seem to work that way. So it's possible it's just that the two systems aren't mutually exclusive. Alternately, skeletals can be warded off or decieved in some manner not requiring bloodsealing with their creator's blood. Certainly they'd be of questionable use for confining Shai if she could hijack them and send them after a guard with a small blood sample.

I would also note that the bloodsealer shows no evidence of being a Forger; Fra adds a third magic user to the incredibly high-stakes conspiracy to check over Shai's work instead of having the bloodsealer do it, or for that matter having him do all the work and dropping Shai entirely. And even if he weren't trusted with the plan to tamper with the stamp to manipulate the emperor or competent enough to construct the seal himself, none of the other arbiters has him checking Shai's work as part of the stated plan even though they're trusting him with confining her.

Regardless, skeletals seem to be completely impossible through Forging. They're implausible, but it's more than just that; I think plausbility might be something that can be overriden by raw power like Allomancy's adherence to Newtonian Physics. Once a skeletal is finished, it still doesn't have any physical means of moving. There are no muscles for it to move with, it's just inflexible bone and connecting wiring. Transforming a human skeleton into a Chasmfiend would be incredibly difficult to impossible with Forging, but if you somehow got the stamp to take the resulting Chasmfiend would have muscles to move with. Skeletals do not have anything that would let them move, but they do so anyway. Forging changes things, but once stamped an object behaves in a manner consistent with physics. And the whole business with the blood ward and blood tracking just does not work like Forging does in any manner except having an inked stamp involved. Shai could sense him setting the skeletals on her, when Forgery altering unstamped objects is definitely not possible at Shai's power level and quite possibly not possible at all.

[Nepene he/him]

We know that Fjorden magics involve twisting bones. It may well be that the skeleton magic is a manifestation of the Skaze. He has dominion over the dead. It is a similar magic but with a very different Intent. Forging involves you being so devoted to an item's history you understand it intimately and can change it to make it better. Dominion involves sacrifices and blood and control over the human body.

[Windrunner he/him]

Not quite sure what you mean by "skaze" here. You know that Skaze are basically evil Seons, right? There's nothing to suggest that Skaze have any abilities beyond the Seons, let alone the ability to have their own magic system. It's not a single being. Unless you're referring to Skai, which is an entirely different thing. Skai doesn't "have" a magic system, Dominion does. I don't even know where the "dominion over the dead" thing is coming from, unless you're maybe referring to Jaddeth? He's not proven to be tied to Dominion, although it's a possibility. I would suggest you don't attach too much import to any Derethi religious beliefs, we know things like that have changed over time, been downright manipulated, or flat out wrong to begin with.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

Literally, the only thing Bloodsealing and Forgery appear to have in common are the fact that they use stamps. Given that both are magic systems on Sel, this is less impressive than it sounds; all magic systems we have seen in Sel use symbols (perhaps geography-based symbols) to perform their work. So all we have left in common is that they both use stamps to make the symbols they use. That is a very weak connection indeed.

In short, I feel that for most people, calling them different magic systems makes much more sense. Shai's ignorance about the Bloodsealer is a much better explanation, I feel.

I don't see it as making any sense.

Shai thinks of the Bloodsealer's creations as 'Forgeries of human life'. Given that Shai is our authority on Forging, do you really think she would call them that if it was impossible to create Forgeries of human life? All the questions that have been brought up regarding whether such a Forgery would work are things we get specifically from Shai; she knows all of the inconsistencies that has been pointed out throughout this thread. She should at least comment on the fact that the skeletons break the rules of Forging. But she doesn't, which suggests that she knows that they don't, that they simply work differently--and if she knows that much, and the animation of the dead isn't the result of Forging, why on earth would she call them Forgeries?

Unless we are told differently by an authority on the subject, I will continue to consider Bloodsealing a part of Forging.

[Nepene he/him]

Not quite sure what you mean by "skaze" here. You know that Skaze are basically evil Seons, right? There's nothing to suggest that Skaze have any abilities beyond the Seons, let alone the ability to have their own magic system. It's not a single being. Unless you're referring to Skai, which is an entirely different thing. Skai doesn't "have" a magic system, Dominion does. I don't even know where the "dominion over the dead" thing is coming from, unless you're maybe referring to Jaddeth? He's not proven to be tied to Dominion, although it's a possibility. I would suggest you don't attach too much import to any Derethi religious beliefs, we know things like that have changed over time, been downright manipulated, or flat out wrong to begin with.

I was working under the assumption that the Seons and the Skaze are intimately connected to the magic system somehow, and thus suggesting that the bloodsealers's magics were like forging, but they came from Dominion, perhaps due to the influence of Skaze in the Bloodsealer swamps. Bloodsealers control bones, as with the Derethi monks, and I think that is a large coincidence that is unlikely to be coincidental. The normal forging we see would be the magics of Devotion.

With regards to Dominion over the dead, I was referring to the Bloodsealer controlling the dead with magic.

Edit. Wyrn has a prophesy. That suggests he is a splinter at least, and that Jaddeth's religion has a real shard splintered around them.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Nepene

[Windrunner he/him]

Dude, anyone can come up with a prophecy, it doesn't necessarily have to be related to a Shard, even if we've seen prophecies from Shards before. You cannot use that as credible proof.

There's no indication that Seons and Skaze are the source of any magic systems. I'm sure they're tied but I doubt that they're the cause. There's not even any indication that there are any Skaze in the Rose Empire, or that the Rose Empire even knows that the Skaze exist. Brandon's said that they tend to stay in Fjorden influencing politics there.

[Nepene he/him]

Dude, anyone can come up with a prophecy, it doesn't necessarily have to be related to a Shard, even if we've seen prophecies from Shards before. You cannot use that as credible proof.

Brandon Sanderson disagrees.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/01/your-questions-for-brandon-sanderson-answered

I know it’s a RAFO, but how the eff did Wyrn see into the future? That seems above even a Shardholder’s abilities! I bet that sucker’s tapping into the Shadesmar. But I digress...


Ha, wow, that is indeed a RAFO. Note that we have seen temporal abilities in the Cosmere before. Most of the time these are related directly to the pure essence of a Shard or to a Splinter.

There's no indication that Seons and Skaze are the source of any magic systems. I'm sure they're tied but I doubt that they're the cause. There's not even any indication that there are any Skaze in the Rose Empire, or that the Rose Empire even knows that the Skaze exist. Brandon's said that they tend to stay in Fjorden influencing politics there.

I never believed Seons and Skaze were the sources of any magic systems, and my theory is not dependent on them being so. I was, at most, suggesting they may be knowledgeable about the magic (e.g. knowing that Elantrians are not indestructible) and may be present in a certain region. I'm not aware of Brandon stating they stay in Fjorden, but sure.

If you wish I can rephrase it.

I believe that based on the earlier noted evidence, bloodsealing looks more like Dominion based magic. It is similar to how the monks bend their bones to gain powers. It involves control over one's own body. It is thus separate but similar to forging.

[Chaos he/him]

I need to step in a little, I think. Cool down, Nepene and Windy.

I was working under the assumption that the Seons and the Skaze are intimately connected to the magic system somehow, and thus suggesting that the bloodsealers's magics were like forging, but they came from Dominion, perhaps due to the influence of Skaze in the Bloodsealer swamps. Bloodsealers control bones, as with the Derethi monks, and I think that is a large coincidence that is unlikely to be coincidental. The normal forging we see would be the magics of Devotion.

With regards to Dominion over the dead, I was referring to the Bloodsealer controlling the dead with magic.

Edit. Wyrn has a prophesy. That suggests he is a splinter at least, and that Jaddeth's religion has a real shard splintered around them.

I think it is premature to say that the Skaze have an influence in Bloodsealing. After all, there's no corollary to Seons in the Rose Empire, so it is very unfounded to say that Seons or Skaze are influencing the magic. They may not even be there.

Furthermore, I do agree that there's no evidence of Splinter based magic on Sel (they may exist, though, on planets that have no Shardic influence and only have a Splinter there). Because, one important part of Splinters is that they often have their own intent. The way one accesses the power must be line with the power's intent, and I highly imagine that a Splinter based magic system would involve you using the Splinter's intent instead of the Shard's--or the Splinter's interpretation of the Shard's intent. The actual mechanics of that doesn't really matter; all I'm saying is that invoking Splinters is probably not the simplest explanation.

A far simpler explanation instead of invoking Splinters is that different regions may have different methods of doing magic, say, in line with Dominion. The region breaking could be because magic on Sel changed after Devotion and Dominion Splintered. So, Dakhor may just be the Fjordell method of doing magic in line with Dominion's intent (and thus opening a conduit to the Dor), and Bloodsealing may be a different method of doing the same thing somewhere else. No Skaze required!

In fact, let me say that (because I have unposted audio) Bloodsealing is not a subset of Forgery. They are related, but different.

So, it's perfectly reasonable that Bloodsealing may be one manifestation of magic in line with Dominion's power. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think that was primarily what Windy was trying to get at there.

Also, Windy stated that very poorly, because Wyrn clearly has some future sight power. You are certainly right about that Nepene.

I never believed Seons and Skaze were the sources of any magic systems, and my theory is not dependent on them being so. I was, at most, suggesting they may be knowledgeable about the magic (e.g. knowing that Elantrians are not indestructible) and may be present in a certain region. I'm not aware of Brandon stating they stay in Fjorden, but sure.

If you wish I can rephrase it.

I believe that based on the earlier noted evidence, bloodsealing looks more like Dominion based magic. It is similar to how the monks bend their bones to gain powers. It involves control over one's own body. It is thus separate but similar to forging.

That is a much better way of phrasing the theory. It wasn't well stated it before, hence the confusion.

[Windrunner he/him]

Also, Windy stated that very poorly, because Wyrn clearly has some future sight power. You are certainly right about that Nepene.

I didn't say that he can't see the future, I'm well aware of his abilities. I stand by what I said. When someone says "Wyrn has a prophecy" that doesn't mean the same thing as Wyrn can see the future. My point was that although Wyrn can see the future, that does not mean that Wyrn's prophecy comes from the future or even anywhere reliable. I said there was a good chance it did, but that you can't really prove it definitively either way. Things change all the time here. I doubt there was any mention of Jaddeth returning when he was god of rocks.

Brandon Sanderson disagrees.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/01/your-questions-for-brandon-sanderson-answered

I know it’s a RAFO, but how the eff did Wyrn see into the future? That seems above even a Shardholder’s abilities! I bet that sucker’s tapping into the Shadesmar. But I digress...


Ha, wow, that is indeed a RAFO. Note that we have seen temporal abilities in the Cosmere before. Most of the time these are related directly to the pure essence of a Shard or to a Splinter.

Brandon disagrees with the fact that people are free to make up their own prophecies? I did not see that there. Wyrn can see the future, yes. He's obviously not too great at it, what with his utter failure in Elantris, but he can see. That doesn't mean he doesn't say whatever the heck he wants to. He has them ignore their "prophecies" with alarming regularity. They're supposed to control the whole world to bring Jaddeth back, but they ignored the Rose Empire. And in Brandon's plans for Elantris 2, now that their invasion has failed they're ignoring the fact that Arelon and Teod still survive and claiming Jaddeth is coming back anyway.

I never believed Seons and Skaze were the sources of any magic systems, and my theory is not dependent on them being so. I was, at most, suggesting they may be knowledgeable about the magic (e.g. knowing that Elantrians are not indestructible) and may be present in a certain region. I'm not aware of Brandon stating they stay in Fjorden, but sure.

Well when you say things that aren't explained much, like this, it's pretty easy to interpret your words in many ways.

It may well be that the skeleton magic is a manifestation of the Skaze.

[Nepene he/him]

I didn't say that he can't see the future, I'm well aware of his abilities. I stand by what I said. When someone says "Wyrn has a prophecy" that doesn't mean the same thing as Wyrn can see the future. My point was that although Wyrn can see the future, that does not mean that Wyrn's prophecy comes from the future or even anywhere reliable. I said there was a good chance it did, but that you can't really prove it definitively either way. Things change all the time here. I doubt there was any mention of Jaddeth returning when he was god of rocks.

Brandon disagrees with the fact that people are free to make up their own prophecies? I did not see that there. Wyrn can see the future, yes. He's obviously not too great at it, what with his utter failure in Elantris, but he can see. That doesn't mean he doesn't say whatever the heck he wants to. He has them ignore their "prophecies" with alarming regularity. They're supposed to control the whole world to bring Jaddeth back, but they ignored the Rose Empire. And in Brandon's plans for Elantris 2, now that their invasion has failed they're ignoring the fact that Arelon and Teod still survive and claiming Jaddeth is coming back anyway.

Brandon strongly implied Wyrn was a splinter there with temporal abilities, and also directly says he can see into the future here.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/90/elantris-Chapter-62-1

I definitely meant to imply that Wyrn managed to see, limitedly, into the future and sent Fjon to the place where he’d be able to slay an important traitor to Fjorden.

Aka, Brandon has stated directly that Wyrn can see, limitedly, into the actual future. The book strongly implied, as Brandon said, that Wyrn had temporal magics. As a Splinter he is likely quite limited in his power. You note his many failures quite accurately.

Well when you say things that aren't explained much, like this, it's pretty easy to interpret your words in many ways.

Ah yeah. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was suggesting that the Skaze may exists there and may have taught some magics to the Bloodsealers (as they may have taught the monks). The actual source of power would of course be the powers of creation and Dominion. Their existence there is not that important to my theory though, it's simply something someone could ask Brandon sometime.

What do you think of Bloodsealing being from Dominion?

[Windrunner he/him]

I know, and have known for quite some time, that Wyrn can see the future. My point about his prophecies not all necessarily being things he's seen still holds true.

I think that Bloodsealing being of Dominion is a reasonable hypothesis, although I am hesitant to label any magic as belonging to any particular Shard for sure. Sel's confusing, it's hard to tell what's really going on here, and if any of the magics are in fact only of one Shard.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

In no world could Forging convince a skeleton that it is, in fact, animate and at the control of its creator. The plausibility of such a proposition is nearly negative.

I dunno, man. My skeleton does just about what I ask it to do.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Update:

Turns out this theory is essentially the exact opposite of how it works. The farther you get from the country drawn as the base, the weaker the magic gets, while you might be able to actually change the base-country to make it work elsewhere. Source.

[dyring]

One other detail in this thread necromancy here;)

(And I hope it wasent mentioned, read all posts I could see relating to this, but jumped those wich didnt seem to relate to this part of it)

 

Elantris and the Aeon use of non-elantrians.

 

Could not the "shaod", with or without elantris, mostly be about giving the ability to draw Aeons in the air?

 

It was noted that Sarene could not, despite trying, draw Aeons. That is not correct. What Saerene could not do was draw lines in the air. It is quite possible, I would say even likely, that Saerene would ahve been just as able as Raoden to draw the line in the ground wich "fixed" elantris.

 

So a non-Elantrian could very likely(in my mind) use Aon-dor - but they could not draw lines in the air, they would need to use another medium and sculpt the symbols, just like is done with forging in emperors soul.

 

Comments?

[NewbSombrero he/him]

One other detail in this thread necromancy here;)

(And I hope it wasent mentioned, read all posts I could see relating to this, but jumped those wich didnt seem to relate to this part of it)

 

Elantris and the Aeon use of non-elantrians.

 

Could not the "shaod", with or without elantris, mostly be about giving the ability to draw Aeons in the air?

 

It was noted that Sarene could not, despite trying, draw Aeons. That is not correct. What Saerene could not do was draw lines in the air. It is quite possible, I would say even likely, that Saerene would ahve been just as able as Raoden to draw the line in the ground wich "fixed" elantris.

 

So a non-Elantrian could very likely(in my mind) use Aon-dor - but they could not draw lines in the air, they would need to use another medium and sculpt the symbols, just like is done with forging in emperors soul.

 

Comments?

 

There are some in text issues with this, but I can't find direct quotes as I don't have my book right now. At least as far as the Elantrians who wrote the books in the library were aware, it is only Elantrians who are able to draw Aons that can be used for AonDor. Then, if they draw Aons in some medium, them magical aspect of them will stick around, even if erased by someone non-Elantrian.

[Windrunner he/him]

Mhmm. I do think it would take an Elantrian to draw or create any portion of any functioning Aon.

[Alatar he/him]

I just reread Elantris a month ago or so. I don't have the book so I can't quote but they learn in the library (or maybe from Galladon, I don't remember) that Elantrians can use any material to draw an Aon for AonDor. Thay can use their light fingers, they can use a stick, they can draw them on stone or with ink, it explicitly says they can draw them in dust and, after the Aon is erased from the dust, or the dust cleaned, the Aon will still be there, invisible, and working.

 

And, of course, any non elantrian can draw aons, and they won't trigger any effect. Remember Raoden knew their aons, he had to write them a lot of times before being taken by the Shaod and nothing had ever happened.

 

That means (I think), you have to be an elantrian to draw Aons for AonDor (meaning, you are connected to the Dor and AonDor by becoming an elantrian) and the physical manifestation of Aons is relevant only in the moment of the drawing, which is the moment they get the power. Once the Dor has powered the Aon, the physical manifestation is irrelevant, you can destroy an Aon carved in stone and it will keep working.

 

But also, any elantrian can nullify a working Aon by touching it (and willing, I suppose), even if it's invisible now. So, clearly, the connection is spiritual, you need to be connected to get Aons to work, and you connect at the moment of the Shaod.

[dyring]

It is however, a tad illogical methink 

 

If an Elantrian can draw an Aeon with a stick, then its not needed to be a part of his body. That means the Elantrian either:

 

A: Can transfer the "creation magic" to the point of a stick(or other items). This would be equal to a feruschemist  being able to poke his metalminds with a stick to access it.

or

B: It is really all mental, and you could as an elantrian, with training, simply picture the glyph In your mind, and it would be in effect.

 

Same, regarding your point with cancelling a glyph, an elantrian should be able to cancel a glyph by poking it with a stick. And any single one Elantrian could cancel the giant "city of Elantris" glyph by poking it with their finger.

That's kinda.. dangerous. Im sure there have been some suicidal/mad Elantrians over time, nasty if they can cancel elantris that easily. Also, could then a bonemonk(The name have gotten erased from my head temporarily:p) cancel the city of elantris glyph too, like the gradget did Raoden´s disguise?

[Krelian]

I don't think you could just picture it in your mind. The act of drawing the aon is what "opens" reality to the effect of AonDor. And the effect seems to be tied directly to the aon. If picturing an aon in your mind actualized it, then some aons, like aon daa, for example, would be lethal to think about, I think...

[dyring]

I agree that was kinda my point, that's why its so peculiar with an elantrian being able to draw with a stick, yet not a non-elantrian at all if that's the case.

 

Its very odd that the magic should be able to transfer through anything held by an elantrian in such a manner. Especially as one Elantrian could make the first half of a glyph, and a second the rest.

[Senor Feesh]

It's probably all mixed up with Realmatics and the three realms. Elantrians clearly have some kind of Investiture that normal folk lack; I personally see no reason why they shouldn't be able to form an Aon using a stick. It's a totally different magic system to Feruchemy, so applying the same reasoning is pointless.

 

I'm sure that as the Cosmere grows we'll see other magics that don't require direct physical contact to the magic user (in fact, we already have at least once in Stormlight Archives).