Book 2 *Spoiler alert for book 1

[KamKam]

First, Hello all, My first post. Read WoK (Way of Kings)about a year ago, and have been looking forward to a few things ever since.

1. The face to face meeting of Kaladin and Amaram. (I'm holding out for something epic, much like the excitement in the scene of Kelsier vs. the Steel Inquisitor) < MistBorn for those who havent read it. This scene was what sold me on Brandon Sanderson after I had heard he was continuing WoT (Wheel of Time) after the passing of Robert Jordan. I highly recommend reading the first book of both these series.

2. The follow up on training for the former bridgemen now recruited into a spear company.

3. The possible emergence on more Honor spren after the Codes are forced upon the armies, and the chance of learning to use stormlight for others.

4. The assasination attempt on Dalinar.

#1. is the most exciting possibility in my opinion.

Comments thoughts?

[Zenith]

These are good. However, book 2 will give us many other things, foremost of these being information. It's going to be a Shallan book, so we'll get so much more background on Roshar. I'm really excited. Although, I am very excited for 1&4.

Also, welcome to the 17th shard! I hope your stay here is enjoyable .

Edited October 29, 2012 by Zenith

[Observer]

The fourth one will have massive ramifications. CSorry Dalinar, but I can't wait to watch Szeth butcher you and your men. Whether he succeeds or fails is irrelevent, since either way we get to see exactly how well this vengance pact holds together and how united by it everyone really is.

[Cayden]

The fourth one will have massive ramifications. CSorry Dalinar, but I can't wait to watch Szeth butcher you and your men. Whether he succeeds or fails is irrelevent, since either way we get to see exactly how well this vengance pact holds together and how united by it everyone really is.

I think it all depends on why Szeth is truthless. is he truthless because he can surgebind or is it seperate?

If his culture is based upon that of an old KR belief then the mere fact that he can surgebind might not be a good thing to those whose ancestors abandoned the ways. Perhaps that was enough for them to brand him Truthless, because in a sense it is a weapon and he has wielded it.

If he was branded as such because he can surgebind then meeting Kaladin is going to be an interesting experience for him, even more so if Kaladin can train some more of his lads to do similar. Admittedly he'd have to pull Lopen away from the ladies while they told him they'd like him to kiss him 'cause he glows....

But yeah I cannot wait for it myself and it makes me wonder whether this will be when Dalinar's abilities will reveal themselves. Afterall we only know a couple of the KR abilities, could be something quite epic.

[Arran]

One thing I'm very much looking forward to is the interaction between the main characters. I was so happy in TWoK when Kaladin and Dalinar finally met, and even more so a little later on when they had a long conversation. In book 2, further Dalinar/Adolin and Kaladin interaction is all but certain, and now Shallan is on her way to the Shattered Plains where's she'll almost certainly meet Kaladin, Dalinar and Adolin. We'll get to see what most of the main characters think of the others, and how they evolve because of their relationships.

I used to be a fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, and one thing that eventually turned me off that series was how little direct interaction there was between the main members of the cast. Instead, it seemed that, for the most part, each character was off doing his/her own thing in his/her own corner of the world. Heck, after five books of what is supposed to be a seven-book series, Daenerys has yet to directly meet any other point-of-view character. Character meetings/reunions/relationships I'd been anticipating for years and years consistently failed to materialize. Robert Jordan's series also suffered from this problem, albeit to a much lesser degree. But one thing that really stood out to me was that by book 9, when they became intimate, Rand al'Thor and Elayne Trakand had never spent enough time together, either in-story or in pagecount, to realistically develop their relationship to that point.

So this is one of my great hopes for Stormlight Archive: that the characters will spend enough time in each other's company that, however their various relationships evolve, it will feel natural instead of forced.

[Inkthinker]

It is frustrating that the cast of Martin's series tends to be spread out quite a lot, especially now... as I've said elsewhere, it often feels like I'm reading 4-6 different books at the same time, rather than one consistent, coherent novel. It's no surprise that some folks read them by character rather than page order... you can go through and read nothing but Jon or Dany or Arya chapters, and get a single storyline without missing much. Even Tyrion, in the most recent book, is now off on his own thing (though if he doesn't end up with Dany by the next book, I'll be quite irritated. I quite reading Jordan with the infamous book 10, and by god I'll quit on Martin too if he writes 1000 pages of non-progression).

That being said, I think it's less of a problem for Stormlight, especially given how Book 1 ended. Kaladin has alreayd been put together with Dalinar. Jasnah and Shallan are on their way to the Plains, which will put all four of them together for at least a little while. Szeth's nature is to bounce around, but he's also bound to head for Dalinar. Rather than set up each character on their own arc, Brandon's set them all up to collide, and soon.

It helps as well to know that we're looking at a planned 5-book cycle (followed by another, but the first five should create a coherent arc), rather than an open-ended epic saga bound to go who-knows-where. I have a great deal of faith in Brandon's ability and willingness to plan ahead. It's also nice to know that he's been reasonably reliable in terms of output... there should not be any 3-5 year gaps (or more) between novels, as we've gotten with Jordan or Martin.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Inkthinker

[dionysus]

Definitely agree with your critique Inkthinker. I am worried I won't have many future writers to enjoy if ASOIAF, Malazan, and the worst parts of WoT are the future of fantasy. You explained it well.

I am worried about Sanderson as well. Jordan did not have the lack of character or plot interaction problem in his early books either, but eventually the scale of the story he wanted to tell and the number of characters overwhelmed the novels. There are so many plot lines that could have been abandoned and make the books ultimately better because they would be more focused: General WoT spoilers follow.

That rebel clan of Aiel, Faile kidnapping, everything to do with Morgase, Elayne in the later books, even maybe the split of the White Tower.

The optimist in me recognizes that Sanderson salvaged that series. And he has quite righty culled a bunch of extraneous plot lines from the books he has controlled. (I am sure Jordan recognized the problem as well at the end.) This bodes well for Stormlight. Sanderson also credits WoT as having taught him how to do an epic.

Book 1 to me felt like the right number of viewpoint characters not counting interludes which Brandan has stated are to allow him a break from the epicness of the story: Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, and Kaladin. You add even 2 more viewpoint characters and I think you sacrifice well defined story arcs. We know not all viewpoint characters have been revealed (Navani is confirmed), so this will pose a challenge to Brandon in later books. Personally, I would hope that in his future books he sticks with 4 or 5 viewpoint characters and allows other main characters who had viewpoints in the past be strong supporting characters or be interlude viewpoints. He can always bring them back in later books as viewpoints. Not everyone has to be doing something epic at the same time. Yes, I would be disappointed if Kaladin was dropped for a book or two, but I have seen what WoT turned into, and that is worse.

Edited October 30, 2012 by dionysus

[happyman he/him]

Since everybody is talking about A Song of Fire and Ice, well, part of my problem was that it seemed like it was going nowhere, at the speed of frozen molasses. So I guess I agree with that.

The other was that I didn't really like, respect or understand any of the characters except Tyrion, and from Martin's style, I knew that what was going to happen to him would just continue to be painful.

Also, the big plots started in the first book didn't seem to be going anywhere. By halfway through the third book, I couldn't care less who was king. They'd all managed to make a dogs dinner out of it, and frankly, demoting the lot of them and installing a competent tyrant seemed like the least bad option. I just didn't care any more.

[Arran]

Definitely agree with your critique Inkthinker. I am worried I won't have many future writers to enjoy if ASOIAF, Malazan, and the worst parts of WoT are the future of fantasy. You explained it well.

I am worried about Sanderson as well. [...] The optimist in me recognizes that Sanderson salvaged that series. And he has quite righty culled a bunch of extraneous plot lines from the books he has controlled. (I am sure Jordan recognized the problem as well at the end.) This bodes well for Stormlight. Sanderson also credits WoT as having taught him how to do an epic.

I really don't think you need to worry about Sanderson and Stormlight Archive, Dionysus. Sanderson is very much aware of the problems Jordan and Martin encountered later on in their series as a result of having too many characters and plotlines to deal with: in Jordan's case, books where very little happens, and in Martin's case, having to split the cast in two books. Here's a passage from an interview Sanderson did at Pat's Fantasy Hotlist:

- SFF authors such as Robert Jordan, George R. R. Martin, and Steven Erikson have all had problems keeping an adequate momentum over the course of long series. Looking forward and knowing that there are pitfalls associated with writing fantasy sagas of epic proportions, how do you plan to avoid this as you progress with The Stormlight Archive?

That is a wonderful question. The people you mention are brilliant writers whose skill and mastery of the genre I’m not sure I can ever get close to matching. I’ll just put that out there. I do think, having read their work and seeing what they’ve had to do--I mean, if you look at something like the Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fire, these authors have had to do this without a lot of guidance. When Robert Jordan wrote The Wheel of Time, there were no fantasy epics of that length out. There were trilogies; we had David Eddings’ five-booker, but those were all much shorter than what The Wheel of Time became. There was just nothing like what Robert Jordan was doing. George R. R. Martin was kind of in the same boat. They’ve had to do this without examples to follow. What I have going for me is that I’ve been able to watch them do it--and as you said, watch them hit those pitfalls (and admirably do great jobs of crossing them)--and hopefully learn from their example. The main thing that I feel I need to do with this series is keep the viewpoints manageable. What Martin and Jordan both ran into is that the more viewpoints you add, the more trouble you get in, because when you get to the middle books you’ve got so many characters that either you have a book that doesn’t include half of them, whereupon you have the latest George R. R. Martin book, or you do what Robert Jordan did famously in book 10 of the Wheel of Time, which is to give a little bit from each viewpoint and progress none of them very far. Which was also very problematic. Both of those solutions were very wonderful things to try, and I’m glad they did them, but what this says to me is, “Keep your viewpoints manageable.” So that I won’t run into that problem as much.

[KamKam]

It is frustrating that the cast of Martin's series tends to be spread out quite a lot, especially now... as I've said elsewhere, it often feels like I'm reading 4-6 different books at the same time,

I agree 100%, this is the reason i stopped reeading Martin.

[Inkthinker]

Well, part of the problem for Martin has been (as I understand it) a plot blocker that he had trouble getting around, something he called "The Meereenese Knot". I'm not sure that it was ever clearly explained, but from what I could glean here and there, he was stuck because he'd written Dany into a corner and couldn't figure out how to get her and some of the others where he wanted them to be in a way that felt true to them and good to him. He also has a problem because he wanted to do a time-jump originally, and age some of the characters (like Arya) but when it came around, that option no longer felt viable.

Hence we get a book without Jon, or Dany, or Tyrion... because George was having an 11-year case of writer's block.

Again, this isn't something I think Brandon has to deal with so much, because he outlines and plots before he "discovery writes". Or, as I think he's put it before, he's an "outline writer" when it comes to plotting, and a "discovery writer" when it comes to characters. Sometimes this does take him in interesting and unexpected directions that change his plot outline, but it means the odds of him finding himself in a corner because he wrote (and published) his characters doing something, and then couldn't figure out how to get them to the next place, is greatly diminished.

[Cayden]

I think the biggest problem most of the great authors make is when they change their minds half way through. GRRM planned for it to be a trilogy with a time jump then changed his mind.. without working out beforehand where it was going to go and how.

As for WoT that wasnt originally planned to be anywhere near so long but it got out of control and just kept getting longer without making progress.

BS knows he wants it to be 10 books long and knew it from the start. If you go into it knowing exactly what you want and stick to it, then it tends to be better than changing your mind part way through which can cause a lose of direction. Personally I enjoy GRRM and RJ's WoT but there are massive sections which you can skip without it having any impact on the story.

[Arran]

Another big problem that Martin developed is that IMO he is no longer able to include at least one clear, major buildup -> climax -> resolution sequence in his novels. In A Feast for Crows, we had the buildup and climax of Cersei's political downfall, but no resolution. In A Dance with Dragons, there were three major buildups (leading to what should have been the battle of Meereen, the battle of Winterfell, and the climax of the increasingly tense situation at the Wall), one climax out of three, and zero resolution. When I finished both books, I was left very much unsatisfied.

By contrast, in TWoK Sanderson delivered what was the most satisfying buildup -> climax -> resolution sequence I'd read in years. Kaladin and Dalinar's storylines built up to the fight at the Tower, which had an exciting, multi-chapter climax, and were afterward resolved (Dalinar's confrontations with Sadeas and Elhokar, his and Kaladin's conversation). When I finished reading TWoK, I was happier and more satisfied as a reader than I'd been with A Song of Ice and Fire for over a decade.

[KamKam]

When I finished reading TWoK, I was happier and more satisfied as a reader than I'd been with A Song of Ice and Fire for over a decade.

+ 1 brother.

im very against big time jumps in books i read. small ones are definately needed but a writer loses alot of my concentration reading them when they just gloss over what happens to the characters you enjoyed the most in their previous books.

Bad Time jumps: Glen Cook, Black Company. David Farland, Runelords. Sara Douglass Axis>Wayfarer. (however i have many critiques on how she ended that series anyways i shouldnt even put her on the list how dissapointed i was with it.)

Good Time Jumps: David Eddings, Balgarion>Mallorean. Robert Jordan book 1>2, 2>3. L.E. Modesitt, Jr. Recluce. (I love this saga and how they all tie in as a history of a world and stand alone stories at the same time.)

kinda hijacking my own thread but anyone else have any examples they love or hate?

[Cayden]

I find the time jumps in Frank Herberts Dune series to fit nicely, but thats because it would be impossible to cover that amount of time without having some big time outs ;-) First 3 books are pretty much back to back. except a 12 year gap between 1 and 2. then you have 3500 years for book 4, then another 1500 for book 5.

If you havent read them its definately worth a shot, Dune is basically to Sci-Fi novels as LoTR was to fantasy. And if you've read WoT see if you see the connection between some of the groups in it ;-) Aiel vs Fremen, Aes Sedai vs Bene Geserit. Mat vs Duncan Idaho etc.

[Inkthinker]

Jim Butcher just did a fairly good time jump in the most recent Harry Dresden novels, effectively moving his world forward 6 months and flipping the table on almost his entire cast of characters.

[Asperity he/him]

I think that TWoK (and while I'm on the topic, Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker) all suffered from pacing problems. I didn't notice this while reading Elantris nor during my re-read of the Mistborn trilogy but I am noticing it while re-reading TWoK. Don't get me wrong; he writes great climaxes.. but it's like everything leading up to the climax is empty.

Anyway, I'd be perfectly content if Brandon's ONLY major issue was pacing which I'm sure is something he'll improve on. And while I suppose I can understand his praise towards other major authors, the only 'epic' series I've read have been the SoIaF books out. And I just.. lost interest hard in them. It's slow, the plot is going nowhere, Dany hasn't even met any major characters, and her Dance chapters were a joke. As a reader I really cannot take SoIaF seriously anymore. But that's obviously just my opinion. It's nice to discuss it with others from time to time. Eesh this became a big tirade.

[Inkthinker]

I would seriously disagree that "everything leading up to the climax" is empty. Characters are introduced, they develop, we see them as one thing and then learn they are another, and they learn things about themselves. Neither Kaladin, Dalinar or Shallan are the same characters they were at the climax of their plot arcs as they were at the beginning, and that happens because of all the events leading up to that climax. Without those events, we'd have no context for their developments.

ASoIaF is a slightly different beast, but even there we are witnessing character development. In fact, offhand I can only think of one epic fantasy novel I've read in recent memory where "everything leading up to the climax is empty", and that would be Book 10 of The Wheel of Time. Now there is a novel where almost everything about the characters at the beginning remains unchanged by the end, and that was damned frustrating.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Asperity he/him]

That was bad wording on my part. I meant that climax events seem to far outshine normal events throughout the book and while it's an obvious conclusion that that is supposed to be a typical occurrence in storytelling, it just seems that there is such a large gap in quality and significance. But that could just be me.

I agree that we're seeing character development in SoIaF. It's just not with every major character (example: Dany pining after Daario in A Dance which was just tedious to read, teenage girl or not) and the plot overall feels as if it's crawling along at a snail's pace. A lot has happened but at the same time it feels like it hasn't. If that makes sense.

(I'm bad with words so bear with me here.)

Edited November 1, 2012 by Kythis

[Arran]

And I just.. lost interest hard in them. It's slow, the plot is going nowhere, Dany hasn't even met any major characters, and her Dance chapters were a joke. As a reader I really cannot take SoIaF seriously anymore. But that's obviously just my opinion. It's nice to discuss it with others from time to time.Eesh this became a big tirade.

Worry not – nearly all fantasy/sci-fi fans have various concerns/peeves about the series they read, even those they love, and will take most opportunities to express them.

A lot has happened but at the same time it feels like it hasn't. If that makes sense.

I may be wrong, but I think your loss of interest in ASOIAF ties back to what I said in Feast and Dance being lacking in major buildup -> climax -> resolution sequences. In AGoT, in the way of such sequences, we had Ned's downfall and death, and the first large-scale battles between the Starks and Lannisters (as well as the exciting climaxes of Robb's crowning and the birth of the dragons). In ACoK, we had what I'd say was the biggest sequence of the series thus far, the Battle of the Blackwater, along with Dany's eventual visit to the House of the Undying. In ASoS, we had the Red Wedding, Joffrey's wedding, the siege of the Wall, the Lord Commander's election, Tywin's death, and Dany's march of conquest in Slaver's Bay, culminating in her takeover of Meereen and resulting in her decision to remain in Slaver's Bay.

All those events felt, to me at least, momentous and definitely plot-advancing. But Feast and Dance, as I pointed out in a previous post, both failed to complete even one such major sequence, resulting in the frustrating feelings that nothing of major importance happened and that the series' overarching plot is going nowhere.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Arran

[Roamer]

kinda hijacking my own thread but anyone else have any examples they love or hate?

So far I've enjoyed the time jump from the Mistborn series to the Alloy of Law.

[FlashWrogan he/him]

That was bad wording on my part. I meant that climax events seem to far outshine normal events throughout the book and while it's an obvious conclusion that that is supposed to be a typical occurrence in storytelling, it just seems that there is such a large gap in quality and significance. But that could just be me.

I can see where you are coming from and identify with this sentiment at least a bit. Some of it is a pacing and length issue. I view it from a tension/release perspective. All stories thrive on proper application of tension (conflict) and well-timed release of that tension (resolution). Many of the problems we find in stories are problems with balancing these. I'm going to bring in a few random examples. ASoIaF, from what I have gathered (haven't read past the middle of book 2, but am familiar with the plot), postponed the resolution of conflicts too long and frustrated readers. Something similar happened with WoT. I found myself extremely frustrated with the tv series Lost after a season or two because though there was frequently some resolution to questions and conflicts, there was never enough resolution and they always led to even more questions. On the other hand, plots with not enough tension fall flat and rarely hold our interest.

With TWoK, the problem is that the release from tension is postponed just a bit too long to be comfortable for the reader. The result is that the middle of the book drags just a bit, and the climax is all the better because we spent so much time building up to it. As much as TWoK is one of my favorite books of all time, I get tired of Kaladin's self-pity, Dalinar's waffling back and forth between what he should do, and Shallan's moral quandary. It all drags on longer than I would like, but that wait makes the end of the book all the better. Brandon stated that coming books won't be as long, which is a good thing. It means he may have the pacing worked out a little better.

[Asperity he/him]

Lost... they could have done so much with that show. The first two seasons, and some of the third, were brilliant and then the show just completely went who knows where. Season six felt like I was watching something completely different.

Anyway. I figured the next Stormlight books would be shorter since there isn't as much mandatory worldbuilding so I'm okay with that. Then again who knows what Part 2 will even contain.

[Arran]

kinda hijacking my own thread but anyone else have any examples they love or hate?

Sorry for contributing to the highjacking of your thread, KamKam.

As for time jumps... Hmm, I thought Melanie Rawn did them pretty well in her Dragon Prince trilogy (the first book of which I believe was one of the novels that made Sanderson fall in love with the fantasy genre). There's a jump between books 1 and 2, and another between 2 and 3. No idea about her Dragon Star trilogy, as I haven't read it.

The Lost tv show lost me (please forgive the pun) right at the end of the first season. IIRC, it was a two-hour special, and after a season of teasing and being fed tentalizing small crumbs of information, I was looking forward to finally getting a full meal of revelations. Instead, as I recall, we got two hours of being fed more crumbs that amounted to more questions, more unresolved situations, and, for me at least, not one substantive answer. I abandoned Lost then and there, and never looked back.

I also hope that Stormlight 2 will be a bit shorter than TWoK, as I also found the middle to drag a little. Now that Sanderson has established the world and the characters, I'm confident we'll get our wish.

[KamKam]

Sorry for contributing to the highjacking of your thread, KamKam.

Np i enjoy the carried on conversation dont care where it goes

The Lost tv show lost me (please forgive the pun) right at the end of the first season. IIRC, it was a two-hour special, and after a season of teasing and being fed tentalizing small crumbs of information, I was looking forward to finally getting a full meal of revelations. Instead, as I recall, we got two hours of being fed more crumbs that amounted to more questions, more unresolved situations, and, for me at least, not one substantive answer. I abandoned Lost then and there, and never looked back.

First season i loved and then every season afterwards less and less.

I also hope that Stormlight 2 will be a bit shorter than TWoK, as I also found the middle to drag a little. Now that Sanderson has established the world and the characters, I'm confident we'll get our wish.

I disagree 1000000000%. the longer the better imo. id like to see the next book be a whoppin 2000 pages hardcover.