Brandon's Book 2 reading

[hoser he/him]

My question is "What did Gavilar know?"

On the night he was assassinated he asked Dalinar to "follow the codes."

He also referred to the unusual state of the skies very similarly to the way Hoid did when warning Dalinar about Sadeas' revelation.

I think it's been speculated that there were travelers from other worlds talking to Elhokar that night. He clearly was aware of much that Dalinar is not. Jasnah refers to that time as one where she felt closer to him. She could have told him about the Radiant stuff she knows.

[The Count he/him]

Too late for what? So maybe he was talking about the Ghostbloods or something he was going to do in regards to them that set the parshendi off. So Szeth is too late, Gavilar has already done something...which coincides with the assassination failing to fully prevent Gavilar from bringing back the parshendi gods, which would match up with the first quote from the new reading.

Whatever Gavilar had planned, he probably didn't see it as bad or dangerous himself...? I find it more likely that Gavilar was about to stumble into something bad (releasing powers he didn't understand or know about) rather than Gavilar was secretly plotting something mhwa-ha-ha-ha.

I think these are excellent points indeed. Maybe it was about a new source of power (similar to Meirin's experiments for all you Wheel of Time buffs) that would actually bring about the Final Desolation.

ASSIDE: In fact, that would a terriffic twist and irony if the Desolations were always triggered by the acts of Man in some way.. or that a Desolation could not happen without a specific trigger that only a Mortal could activate. It would be like the Human quest for power and knowledge ultimately causes their destruction... or something (that is, of course, pure speculation)

Anyway, back on topic. If the Parshendi knew about the Black Sphere, and that was the source of their worry then surely they would have given Szeth instructions to do something with it.. or return it to them... or something.

Otherwise, if not for Gavilar's dying words, it would have been found on his body and probably studied by the Artifabrians (it stands out too much to be simply ignored), this would hardly solve the problem.

But then again, the plan seems like it was rushed out and they may not have had time to think it though...

But this also brings me back to another issue... The Parshendi find out that they Must kill Gavilar at the feast and they just happen to have the most dangerous assassin in the world to hand? This is very suspicious. If there was no preplanning involved they they must have known about Szeth's abilities. Otherwise they would be sending a Shin servant to kill a Shardbearer.

Either that or a more disturbing solution is that the Parshendi were given Szeth by someone on the night in question who "vouched" for his ability to do the deed.

Taravangian maybe? Who wanted Gavilar dead presumably for the same reason he now wants Dalinar dead (to stop him uniting the highprinces) and just took advantange of the opportunity to pin it on someone else?

So many thoughts.....

[Vortaan he/him]

What if Gavilar was going to bring back the Knights Radiant? I'm not sure why the Parshendi would oppose that, but his final words are to "find the most important words a man can say". It seems to me that on Roshar, the most important words one can say are the KR oaths. Do we know if Jasnah had her abilities prior to Gavilar's death? Otherwise, all KR potentials we have seen gained their powers post-assasination, after a period of at least a millennium with no recorded instances of KR powers. Seems like an odd coincidence.

[Nepene he/him]

What if Gavilar was going to bring back the Knights Radiant? I'm not sure why the Parshendi would oppose that, but his final words are to "find the most important words a man can say". It seems to me that on Roshar, the most important words one can say are the KR oaths. Do we know if Jasnah had her abilities prior to Gavilar's death? Otherwise, all KR potentials we have seen gained their powers post-assasination, after a period of at least a millennium with no recorded instances of KR powers. Seems like an odd coincidence.

I can imagine some sort of situation similar to the Mistborn scenario that would add a fun twist.

Perhaps the Parshendi had prophesies from Cultivation warning against a Desolution. Odium may have twisted them slightly, as Ruin did, to try and stop them from reviving the knights radiant e.g. "When the honored king breaks the black ball the black gods will return and the knights will return" from "When the honored king breaks the black ball the knights will return and stop the beginning black gods". Whatever Gavilar was doing may have been for the greater good, contrary to what the Pashendi believe.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

What if Gavilar was going to bring back the Knights Radiant? I'm not sure why the Parshendi would oppose that, but his final words are to "find the most important words a man can say". It seems to me that on Roshar, the most important words one can say are the KR oaths. Do we know if Jasnah had her abilities prior to Gavilar's death? Otherwise, all KR potentials we have seen gained their powers post-assasination, after a period of at least a millennium with no recorded instances of KR powers. Seems like an odd coincidence.

Don't forget Szeth, who's also a Surgebinder, and who obviously was it before the assassination of Gavilar. (I'm not saying this has any effect on your theory, since Szeth seems to be special even for a Surgebinder, but it's something to keep in mind.)

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Szeth is also not on the path to Radiantness like Kaladin is, as per Word of Brandon.

[Vortaan he/him]

Don't forget Szeth, who's also a Surgebinder, and who obviously was it before the assassination of Gavilar. (I'm not saying this has any effect on your theory, since Szeth seems to be special even for a Surgebinder, but it's something to keep in mind.)

Szeth is the exception, but he also doesn't follow some of the other connections. He should have an honorspren but doesn't, and his Blade seems to be unique in some way.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Anyway, back on topic. If the Parshendi knew about the Black Sphere, and that was the source of their worry then surely they would have given Szeth instructions to do something with it.. or return it to them... or something.

Otherwise, if not for Gavilar's dying words, it would have been found on his body and probably studied by the Artifabrians (it stands out too much to be simply ignored), this would hardly solve the problem.

But then again, the plan seems like it was rushed out and they may not have had time to think it though...

But this also brings me back to another issue... The Parshendi find out that they Must kill Gavilar at the feast and they just happen to have the most dangerous assassin in the world to hand? This is very suspicious. If there was no preplanning involved they they must have known about Szeth's abilities. Otherwise they would be sending a Shin servant to kill a Shardbearer.

Either that or a more disturbing solution is that the Parshendi were given Szeth by someone on the night in question who "vouched" for his ability to do the deed.

Taravangian maybe? Who wanted Gavilar dead presumably for the same reason he now wants Dalinar dead (to stop him uniting the highprinces) and just took advantange of the opportunity to pin it on someone else?

So many thoughts.....

Shalash was there, she must have destroyed the statue of herself among the other Herald statues, and the wreckage must have been removed. That would be why Szeth didn't see the statue there. We can't be entirely sure how much the Heralds actually know about the current characters and situations, but I they probably have at least a decent idea of what brings about a Desolation. I also wouldn't put it past another Herald to be hiding out somewhere. But not Niter as Jezrien, because a theory that hinges entirely on a fairly nondescript beard is too weak.

I had been hoping for the Parshendi to be directly led by a Herald, and even though this reading seems to kill that idea, I still think it's possible that a Herald is influencing them from out of sight. Although that's probably true for the Alethi as well.

Also: good points with the black sphere

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I'm technically double posting, but it's been over a month and I didn't even realize there was a reading of one of Shallan's flashbacks.

The world ended and Shallan was to blame.

"Pretend it never happened," her father whispered, he wiped something wet from her cheek, his thumb came back red. "I'll protect you."

Was the room shaking? No, that was her, trembling. She looked up at her father, moving with a sudden jerk. She couldn't blink, her eyes were frozen open.

"Sleep now dear one,

Crimson sky will fly before you."

A lullaby, father whispered it through his tears.

Behind him, in the room, dark corpses lay stretched on the floor. Red carpet, once white.

"Though rock and dread may be your bed,

You will sleep my loved one dear"

Her father gathered her into his arms. And she felt her skin squirming.

No... no... This affection wasn't right. A monster should not be held in love, a monster who killed, who murdered.

No... But she could not move.

"Now comes the storm,

But you'll be warm.

The wind may shake your dreams."

Father stepped over the body of a woman in white. Little blood there. It was the other men doing most of the bleeding.

Mother lay face down so Shallan couldn't see the eyes, the horrible eyes.

Almost, Shallan could imagine that the lullaby was the end to a nightmare.

That it was nice[night?], and that she had awakened screaming. That her father was singing to her sleep. As he'd done when she was a child.

"The crystals fine, will glow sublime.

So sleep my loved one dear."

They passed father's safe on the wall. It glowed brightly, light streaming from the cracks around the closed front. A monster was inside.

"And like a song, it won't be long.

You'll sleep, my loved one dear."

Father left the bedroom and closed the door on the corpses.

Things of significance:

Shallan has already started considering herself a murderer before she brought about her father's death.

This happens (obviously) while her father is still alive.

Shallan's stepmother Malise Gevelmar married her father shortly after her mother's death. This short reading informs us that Malise was killed by a Shardblade, and that this happened some time before Shallan's father's death. (Most likely sometime between days to weeks.)

At least two other dead men, either killed by normal means or cut post-death with a Shardblade. (Some people have argued that there wouldn't be much blood if a corpse was slashed with a Shardblade due to lack of blood flow, I disagree. It doesn't matter if the heart's not beating if there's gravity and body is cut in half.)

I got the impression that her father was a very cold man from WoK, but he seems very worried for Shallan and protective of her here, despite (or because of?) the extremely recent death of his wife.

Questions:

Did Shallan do all that killing herself? Or did she merely cause the situation to develop in such a manner that the killings occured. (More likely, in my opinion.)

Did her stepmother die as an innocent bystander? Or was there some betrayal on Malise's part?

A 'monster' glowing in the safe? Could it be the Shardblade? We aren't usually told anything about them glowing. But it definitely does have a monstrous aspect to it. The Soulcaster? Unlikely, the gems would glow, but I get the impression from the first book that they didn't know about the Soulcaster until after her father's death. The sphere that Szeth got in the prologue of WoK and hid somewhere in Jah Keved? Also unlikely, since it didn't glow too much, and "carefully hidden in Jah Keved" probably doesn't mean entrusted to some random Lighteye with ties to a nefarious secret society. Something new entirely? Well, there isn't any way to truly discount that idea...

Does Shallan have the Shardblade now? Or does that only happen after her father dies? Disregard "fruit of her greatest sin" quote here, since she might consider any aspect of her involvement to be her "greatest sin" and there is the possibility that she acquired it before things had reached their ultimate conclusion. (Her father's death)

Oddly enough, there was a "possibility of multiple deaths" that I was fond of when it came to explaining Shallan's past. It allows the Shardblade to have originated from outside House Davar, and so it could not be sold to pay off their debts without incurring considerable suspicion.

[hoser he/him]

Wow! I've just got more questions.

Could it be Shallan's mother rather than stepmother?

What would make a closed safe glow brightly? No need to put a Shardblade in a safe when you can just drop it.

A monster inside the safe? Does that mean that it's alive?

[Dros]

Shardblades disappear, but Honorblades do not.

You picking up what I'm putting down here?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

“My mother passed away when I was just a child, Brightness.”

“And your father soon remarried. Malise Gevelmar, I believe.”

Shallan started at her knowledge. House Davar was ancient, but only of middling power and importance. The fact that Jasnah knew the name of Shallan’s stepmother said a lot about her. “My stepmother passed away recently. She didn’t send me to be your ward. I took this initiative upon myself.”

As he'd done when she was a child.

This flashback takes place more recently than when Shallan was a child. The 'monster' inside the safe is probably a metaphor.

Honorblades can be made to disappear just like Shardblades, and Shardblades can be made to stick around instead of disappearing if the user wills it. It's possible that an Honorblade can only be made to disappear if the Herald it is bound to wills it or dies, but at this point we can't say for sure. I still don't think it is an Honorblade. Neither Honorblade or Shardblade would explain why it is glowing.

I have no good guess as to what is inside the safe, only arguments against it being things we've seen before.

[hoser he/him]

Cheese Ninja, you're probably right on both counts (stepmother and metaphor). I am just not totally convinced.

This flashback takes place more recently than when Shallan was a child. The 'monster' inside the safe is probably a metaphor.

Shallan is about 17 in WoK. If the flashback was to when she was around 12, she could still be referring to when she was a younger child of, say about 7. Her attitude towards her father in the flashback seems different and the "Mother" isn't necessarily how she would refer to a stepmother.

I'm not convinced she's the mother or the stepmother, but mother still seems like a possibility.

I have no good guess as to what is inside the safe, only arguments against it being things we've seen before.

No good guess here, but wildly speculating, I remember that Szeth claims that voidbringers can hold stormlight perfectly. Somewhere else, there is a reference to voidbringers possessing people.

Could it be one of the ten deaths or an infused voidbringer?

Could it have possessed Shallan and used her body to commit mayhem?

But how do you get it into the safe? I don't think there should be voidbringers yet. If it was 6 years prior, a lot seems to have happened about that time. Her father may have a way of controlling or communicating with it. She and her father seem to be the only survivors. Why are she and her "Mother" there, but not her brothers?

The father is crying. I speculate that he is upset at his wife's death.

The less blood around her mother and "horrible eyes" seems to hint at a Shardblade, as commented on previously.

Did her father use the monster to betray the other men, but one of them used a Shardblade on Mother before he was killed?

What could kill a shardblade wielder?

Could that be where Shallan's Shardblade came from?

Whoa! Stop me before I speculate again!

Cheers

Edited January 21, 2013 by hoser

[Bremen]

Changing the topic slightly...

We learned the Parshendi can change forms. Warform, Nimbleform, Workform, Matingform... and the form that Parshmen are in, Slaveform. So Parshmen are not just related to Parshendi, they are the same species. It seems rather unlikely that Parshmen change forms (humans would have noticed that). If they don't take on Matingform, how do they procreate?

[Windrunner he/him]

I don't think they "need" to be in a certain form to do things. Warriors can still perform work, worker form can still make art, it's just not ideal. I'd imagine mating form is ideal for, well, mating.

[Meg]

A 'monster' glowing in the safe?

I believe this 'monster' could as well be the Soulcaster. We saw in TWoK (chapter 36 The Lesson) that the Soulcaster with it's fully infused gems made a "sudden light" that "was nearly blending." I admit that this scene acted out during night. Otherwise: What material might be used to build a safe on Roshar? I'm not sure such a safe could hide such a powerful light.

And "there is a monster inside" might either be a "tale" told by her father to keep her (and others) away from the safe and/or she saw somebody soulcasting in a situation where she was afraid (about the result; remember: Jasnah soulcasted stone into dust, so I think there could be something for a little girl frightening actions done with a Soulcaster).

[The Count he/him]

WARNING - TRULY WILD SPECULATION AHEAD!

Ok so from the Shallan flashback, what do we know....

1/ Woman in white (I think this is Shallan's mother) was killed by a shardblade.

2/ Other Men were killed by conventional weapons.

3/ Shallan feels responsible for their deaths in some way - She is a 'monster'

4/ Shallan's father does not feel she is responsible - he is comforting her...

We also know that Shallan currently has a shardblade (i.e. in WoK)

So my theory for what happened...(everything that follows is theory and has no evidence to back it up)

I think that around the time of the flashback Shallan starting showing signs (to those who know what to look for) of being a surgebinder / natural soulcaster. The Ghostbloods (through Shallan's father) spotted this and wanted to make sure that she ended up working for them and their cause.

Shallan's mother (possibly working through an opposing faction) found out about this and wanted to get Shallan away from her father and the Ghostbloods.

So, on the night in question, Shallan's mother and some other men (one a shardbearer) tried to take Shallan away. Shallan's father cought them and used his soulcaster (supplied through the ghostbloods) to fight them. During the fight, the shardbearer was killed and while Shallan's father was dealing with the other kidnappers, Shallan picked up the fallen shardblade thinking to help her parents (in her confusion I guess she would have been panicking and not thinking about much - she may even have thought that the men were attacking both her parents). While trying to help / defend herself, she accidentally stabbed her mother with the shardblade.

End of theory

This would explain how Shallan got her shardblade, How her mother died by Shardblade, why Shallan feels guilty and why her Father is both upset and trying to comfort Shallan. This would also make the glowing 'monster in the safe' the soulcaster (a monster by virtue of the fact that it had killed people).

Feel free to pick holes but I think this scenario explains most of the questions, even if it is just wild speculation.

Problems with the theory:

1/ Shallan probably would not have been so shocked by what Jasnah did to the rapists if she had seen a soulcatser kill before.

[Voidus]

Ok so from the Shallan flashback, what do we know....

1/ Woman in white (I think this is Shallan's mother) was killed by a shardblade.

2/ Other Men were killed by conventional weapons.

3/ Shallan feels responsible for their deaths in some way - She is a 'monster'

4/ Shallan's father does not feel she is responsible - he is comforting her...

1 and 2 aren't absolutely certain, almost certainly so but not definitely, people seeing 'accusing eyes' could call them horrible so not necessarily a Shardblade and the others could have been cut post-death.

Eve wilder speculation: I personally think that the monster in the safe is Shallans brother who got Soulcast into a lamp

[hoser he/him]

Wow MadRand, I thought I had gone over the top on wild speculation, but I think you've outdone me.

I struggle with some little details.

These people have metals. I assume that the safe would be made of metal. Even if a Soulcaster glows brightly enough in the moment of use (which I doubt), I don't think anyone is closed in the safe using the soulcaster, so it shouldn't be glowing.

Shallan says that the Shardblade was the fruit of her most horrific act, which seems to be the murder of her father. Her father is still alive in this flashback, so I think she gets it later when she kills her father.

The other people seem to have been reduced to bloody corpses, not smoke, crystal, fire or any of the ten essences (the easiest things to soulcast), so I don't think they were killed via Soulcaster.

[Voidus]

The other people seem to have been reduced to bloody corpses, not smoke, crystal, fire or any of the ten essences (the easiest things to soulcast), so I don't think they were killed via Soulcaster.

Actually now that I think about it one of them might have been Soulcast into blood and the rest still Shardblade killed.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Voidus

[The Count he/him]

1 and 2 aren't absolutely certain, almost certainly so but not definitely, people seeing 'accusing eyes' could call them horrible so not necessarily a Shardblade and the others could have been cut post-death.

True we are not sure. But the reference to little blood around the woman's body and the reference to eyes is certainly very suggestive.

Eve wilder speculation: I personally think that the monster in the safe is Shallans brother who got Soulcast into a lamp :P/>/>

I will see if I can showhorn this in to the theory somewhere... too awesome to not be true!

Wow MadRand, I thought I had gone over the top on wild speculation, but I think you've outdone me.

Thank you **bows**

I struggle with some little details.

Only some?!

These people have metals. I assume that the safe would be made of metal. Even if a Soulcaster glows brightly enough in the moment of use (which I doubt), I don't think anyone is closed in the safe using the soulcaster, so it shouldn't be glowing.

A very fair comment and tbh the weakest point of my theory. The only sources of artificial light we know of are fire and Stormlight. Since no buffoon would put fire in a safe... it must be stormlight or something new. A fabrial of some description is the simplest explanation I think.

Shallan says that the Shardblade was the fruit of her most horrific act, which seems to be the murder of her father. Her father is still alive in this flashback, so I think she gets it later when she kills her father.

I agree, the implication in WoK points towards this. But the only real evidence we have is Shallan seeing herself as a murderer. We do not know explicitly that it is her father that she killed. Still my supposition is a little weak I admit.

The other people seem to have been reduced to bloody corpses, not smoke, crystal, fire or any of the ten essences (the easiest things to soulcast), so I don't think they were killed via Soulcaster.

See Voidus' comment below.

Actually now that I think about it one of them might have been Soulcast into blood and the rest still Shardblade killed.

Indeed

[Voidus]

Maybe what's in the safe is Shallan's spren? It's the only other thing I can think of unless it involves another Surge we don't know about and Shallan infused the safe or something.

[hoser he/him]

My nearly baseless speculation is that it is one of the ten deaths - sort of the opposite of the midnight essence in appearance, but capable of being summoned similarly

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

No one was killed with a Soulcaster:

Jasnah held up her freehand, Soulcaster glistening against the skin. Shallan felt her heartbeat speed up. She’d never seen Soulcasting done in person. The ardents were very secretive in using their fabrials, and she hadn’t even known that her father had one until they’d found it on him. Of course, his no longer worked. That was one of the main reasons she was here.

I'm still not certain whether she killed someone by accident or foolishness, or simply did things that would cause killing to happen.

MadRand's theory works, but I still don't like it. Now that we have these additional people involved, I feel like they would be a good source for the Shardblade. I don't think that anyone could have looked at Shallan and seen signs that she could become a Surgebinder/Natural Soulcaster. Jasnah spent weeks/months with her and didn't figure it out, and Jasnah should know better than most.

I still think that other dead men could have been killed by a Shardblade, for the reasons I stated earlier. I think it's more likely they were killed with conventional weapons, but I'm not going to discount the other possibility.

I believe that Malise may have been killed by any one of the people there: Shallan, Lord Davar, or the other men, and there really wasn't enough about her in either the first book or that short reading to tell us much about her.

The only other thing was from Shallan's second letter to Jasnah, where she says her stepmother had no formal education.

[Voidus]

No one was killed with a Soulcaster:

She could have blocked it out still, given that we never see her think about any of this in book 1 it's possible she doesn't remember it. Or she could have come in after the actual fight, not have seen the fight, closed her eyes, etc.