Knights Radiant's Shardplate and blades *SPOILERS*

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Here's the quote from the "Glory of Ignorance" interlude:

Szeth tried to play the part, tried to make himself act less refined. It was very difficult for him. Perhaps impossible. What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old? The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

Also, since Sapphire is the gemstone associated with Windrunners, that's why I associate his abilities with the Shardblade itself. In addition, in the WoK Prime sample chapter, Jekson had neither Blade nor Windrunning. Which is a bit tenuous given that it's an earlier draft, but still notable. Too bad we can't add polls to existing threads, I'd like to see what other people think of Brandon's "we've seen three types of Shardblades" response.

[Observer]

Don't forget how incorrect in-book knowledge tends to be. I agree that the Shin likely know something about that blade that we don't, but we can't place all faith in it.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Don't forget how incorrect in-book knowledge tends to be. I agree that the Shin likely know something about that blade that we don't, but we can't place all faith in it.

I know that a lot in book knowledge is incorrect, but I think Sazed in particular is much better informed than most characters in the series. He was a respected figure in the Shin community before he became Truthless. Probably was privy to many of Shinovar's and the Stone Shaman's secrets. I think he knows what he's talking about when he says that the eye color change is a more or less unique effect of his Blade. I'm sure he's still not as well informed on the whole history of Roshar as someone like Jasnah might be, but I think on this particular topic there's few we've encountered who know better than him (just the Heralds and Hoid).

Here's my rough estimate ranking how knowledgeable some of the characters we've seen in WoK are on Roshar's past: Hoid->Heralds->Taln->Taravangian->Jasnah->Sazed->Navani->Shallan->Dalinar->Kaladin.

Also chapter 71, "Recorded in Blood": “

You have done your work well,” the king said, still not facing him. “Leaders dead, lives lost. Panic and chaos. Was this your destiny? Do you wonder? Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, cast out and absolved of any sin your masters might require of you?”

“I am not absolved,” Szeth said, still wary. “It is a common mistake stone-walkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul.”

Describing Szeth's Blade as a "monstrosity of a Shardblade", when it's half the size of a typical Shardblade is unusual. Either the Shin consider all Shardblades monstrosities, or there's something special about his. I'll just state this explicitly: Szeth's Shardblade is different from all the other Shardblades we saw in Way of Kings. The bigger question is: "What was the original purpose of Szeth's Blade?" And given the answer Brandon gave about some Blades "most certainly" having side-effects on the wielder if used in a non-prescribed manner, and Szeth talking about how he's being haunted by the voices and cries of those he's killed, I'd guess he's got one from that some category.

[Aradel he/him]

Begs the question: Could the Knights radiant make shardblades? And if so did they make some of them... different?

[The Count he/him]

Another point to consider is the number of blades / plate:

In Dalinar's Feverstone Keep vision we see ~300 Radients from 2 of the orders give up their shards.

If we assume that all orders are of a similar size then that means ~1500 shardblades and plate for all the knights. (that, of course assumes that all the orders carried shards which may not be the case).

But this was only the last generation of radients!

I am not sure of the time frame but I am guessing that the Knights Radient exited for around 1000 years from Nohadon's time up to the day of recreance. That is easily 12 generations of knights.

So, if the blades could be created by the knights, that means that there should be ~18,000 blades / plate in the world over the lifetime of the knights radient. Even adjusting for the order growing over its lifetime, that would still leave ~10,000 ish.

Dalinar believes that thers are only ~80 in the whole world. That is a very large discrepency.

The conclusions I draw are could be any one of the following:

1/ The majority of the blades are stored somewhere (Urithiru?). It is plausable that a dead radient's blade / plate were considered sacred and were never to be touched or used again. ((Then why did the Stonewards and Windrunners give their blades to others?))

2/ The knights could not create blades / plate but passed them down Mentor - student style. ((would limit the number of blades / plate but still a large discrepency))

3/ It is possible to destroy the blades / plate. ((I think this is the most likely but... HOW??))

4/ The Ghostbloods are far far more dangerous than we believe ((I cannot believe that they have then all!!!!)

[name_here]

Medieval Europe could make mundane plate mail and swords, but they were still usually passed down. I doubt more Shardplate and blades existed than there were Radiants, and because no non-Radiants apparently had Shardplate I expect they couldn't make more than that.

[dionysus]

3/ It is possible to destroy the blades / plate. ((I think this is the most likely but... HOW??))

Perhaps the act of giving up their blades intentionally caused them to change in some way, making them exist in perpetuity and not just tied to the life of the original wielder. As you say, we only have evidence that a small fraction of KRs gave up their blades intentionally.

I do believe that we do not understand the full power of blades and plate currently. We have a bunch of untrained barbarians using them for their most obvious purposes, killing things. We know that:

-Originally KRs plate glowed and had symbols on them, this does not happen today

-There was no transfer of knowledge from KRs to the people who picked up the discarded blades and plate

-Fabrials can do a whole lot of things way different than just strength, melee protection, and slicing through souls

-Syl does not like Dalinar's blade, though it seems likely her previous bondee used a shardblade. (Different than Dalinar's perhpas, we know there are several types.)

I imagine these shard plates and blades have more uses than what we have seen.

Edited October 8, 2012 by dionysus

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I don't think modern day Shardplate and Shardblades are different from the ones the Radiants used, for the most part. I think it's just a side effect of their users being untrained in them, and not being Surgebinders. If a Radiant died, it probably ended up in an armory in Urithiru until another Radiant advanced to the point in their training where they could use them. I'm pretty sure there were steps involved in a Radiant acquiring their Plate and Blades that tied it to them in Spiritual manner. Maybe they could send their Plate away in the same manner that they do their helmets and Blades? Also, I don't think they can be created or permanently destroyed without using something a few magnitude higher in Investment to do the damage. I do think there are well over 1200 sets of Blades and Plates, most of which have been hidden either by organizations (Thaidakar's Ghostbloods, Restares's), Heralds, Parshendi (presumably backed by a Herald), or maybe even the Shin. I think there's actually a Herald who has devoted himself to collecting Shards and Plate, and that he'll die, and a whole bunch of Blades are going to materialize in an Unlimited Blade Works sytle. Not entirely sure about the Plate in that situation.

As you can see by all the "I think"s, this is unfounded, but a lot it sounds good.

[hoser he/him]

Having previously committed myself to the idea that Szeth was bearing an Honorblade, in the wake of Brandon's pronouncement that we have seen three types of Shardblades, I now recant.

It now seems to me that the three types are:

1. Honorblades,
   
2. Radiantblades
   
3. Shinblades or Szethblades (Szeth's being the only one we have seen like that).
   

The main supporting arguments I have to offer are that:

1. I think the source of Shallan's and Amaram's are the same and there was no discussion of Amaram's being unusual.
   
2. Dalinar had taken Shardblades from the Parshendi before and they didn't seem remarkable.
   
3. The size and the temporary eye color change (which is not compatible with the Alethi understanding).
   

Too many words to say that I agree with Cheese Ninja and some other posters here (and upvotes).

Speculation beyond that goes to:

1. Someone besides the Radiants is making and bestowing Shinblades. Could it be the Shin?
   
2. Since Szeth doesn't seem to have a Nahel bond with a spren, is there a spren trapped in his blade?
   
3. If there is a spren, is it a windspren, an honorspren like Syl or something else?
   
4. If Szeth's temporary access to Windrunner abilities turns his eyes blue (or his eyes become a conduit to blue abilities), then what does the permanent and intergenerational eye color change associated with using a radiantblade mean? Is the general permanent lightening of the eyes associated with a permanent grant of a wider range of abilities (as clear light is the combination of light of many colors? Could those abilities be latent in the absence of a commitment to the Radiant Oaths?
   
5. If the lighteyes are granted certain abilities that activate in the presence of the Oaths, then it will be interesting to see what happens when/if Kaladin picks a Shardblade up.
   

As for the Herald who might be collecting Shardblades, we know that Taln has dark eyes and the people believed to be Shalash and Jezrien have light eyes (iirc). This implies to me that Honorblades do not change eye color and that a herald who picks up a Radiantblade has his eye color changed (although the eye color could be reset during the torture/resurrection process). We can then deduce that these heralds have borne Radiantblades.

Another thing to consider when calculating Radiant numbers: According to the Midnight Essence vision, the Radiants recruit in the runup to a desolation. This implies to me that they deliberately let their numbers diminish between desolations. Does this mean a peacetime number of Radiants and a Desolation number of Radiants?

Apparently the Heralds participated in quelling the most recent previous desolation. The Radiants continued on until the Recreance. The Recreance vision that Dalinar experienced had front lines and fighting. Who were the Radiants fighting? Was the 150/order the peacetime number or the desolation-time roster size?

Please accept my apologies for any inadvertent repetition of ideas stated elsewhere.

I hope this helps.

Edited October 8, 2012 by hoser

[name_here]

In the prologue, Kalak explicitly narrates that Honorblades are weapons "beyond even Shardblades", so I'm pretty sure they're not a special type of Shardblade but something entirely different.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I think a Herald could probably wield a typical Shardblade without their eyes changing color, since their previous connection to their Honorblade takes precedence.

Prelude

But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood outside the ring of swords, looking eastward.

Epilogue

His muscles glistened, wet as if he’d just swum a great distance. To his side, he carried a massive Shardblade, point down, sticking about a finger’s width into the stone, his hand on the hilt. The Blade reflected torchlight; it was long, narrow, and straight, shaped like an enormous spike.

From the context, I would think they're both Honorblades, but Taln's isn't described as anything like the others. Even though they're "beyond even Shardblades", I still think you could count them as a subset of Shardblades, since they seem pretty similar in function.

[hoser he/him]

I think a Herald could probably wield a typical Shardblade without their eyes changing color, since their previous connection to their Honorblade takes precedence.

Prelude

Epilogue

From the context, I would think they're both Honorblades, but Taln's isn't described as anything like the others. Even though they're "beyond even Shardblades", I still think you could count them as a subset of Shardblades, since they seem pretty similar in function.

More quotes from the epilogue:

And then a bright, silvery blade rammed between the massive doors, slicing upward, cutting the bar that held them closed. A Shardblade.

...

A Shardbearer had come to Kholinar.

...

He stepped forward, dragging his Shardblade, ... Dark brown eyes, like a man of the lower class. ...

It's definitely a Shardblade, and presumably Taleniel's Honorblade. His eyes are dark brown while he carries it. I think the "beyond even Shardblades" is like a Porsche enthusiast might describe a Porsche as "no mere car, but a work of art".

Consider Niter, the only candidate I know of for Jezrien, from chapter 28 and Zas' post in this thread:

Niter--head of the Cobalt Guard--ran to intercept the newcomers. He could be overly suspicious at times, but that wasn’t a terrible trait for a bodyguard to have. He returned to Dalinar and Adolin shortly. Tan-faced, Niter bore a dark black beard, cut short. He was a lighteyes of very low rank, and had been with the guard for years.

A lighteyes, and presumably not from his Honorblade.

Let us also consider our candidate for Shalash, Baxil's Mistress from Interlude 7:

... She wasn't Emuli - she didn't even seem Makabaki, though she had dark skin and long, beautiful black hair. She had eyes like a Shin, but she was tall and lean, like an Alethi. Av thought she was a mixed breed. Or so he said when they dared talk about such things. The mistress had good ears. Strangely good ears. ... Her eyes were so faintly violet they were almost white. ...

So if we think these are heralds, and a herald's eyes are not lightened by bearing a Radiantblade, why are their eyes light?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Shalash evidence:

1. Szeth notices that her statue was missing in the prologue. Presumably she had just destroyed it and it had been removed before being replaced.

2. Baxil's Interlude has only Shalash used as the Herald Faces at the chapter title.

3. She is of no race known to Baxil.

4. She talks about getting a Shardblade like it wouldn't be a big deal.

5.

“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.” Dated Palahevan, 1173, 73 seconds pre-death. Subject: a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.

“I’ve been thinking of seeking the Old Magic,” Baxil said, partially to keep himself from cringing as the mistress moved on to gouge out the eyes of a fine bust.

And she's destroying artwork of the Kadasix Epan, Lady of Dreams. If it wasn't clear, she's destroying depictions of herself. Kadasix=Herald I wonder if she's just bored or feels guilty about being worshiped after she and other Heralds abandoned Taln.

Niter is Jezrien evidence:

1. They both have short black beards.

I'm not of the opinion that Niter is a Herald. He could be, but I don't remember seeing anything that suggests that. Both having short trimmed beards is a weak link. Baxil's mistress has four or five pieces of evidence that lead to her being Shalash. As far as Shalash goes, I just think that the established rules for eye color don't apply to the Heralds. I think that Taln started with dark eyes, and Shalash started with very light eyes, and that these don't change even if they pick up a normal Radiant's Blade. But I admit I could be wrong about that.

Anyways, whether Herald's eyes change color is less significant than whether the Radiant's Blades and the fall of the Hierocracy caused the currently established Lighteye society to come into being. Which despite being a theory that I've held for less than a fortnight, I've still become rather fond of it.

Back on topic: Szeth says that Shardplate would interfere with his lashings. A true, fully trained Windrunner Radiant probably had a special relationship to their own Shardplate that allowed them to circumvent Lashing interferences. It was less a suit of armor and more an extension of their self. I think that all the Orders of Radiants could use their full Surgebinding abilities while wearing the Plate. I think that the Plate's gems were there both to power the Plate and to serve as a source of emergency Stormlight for the Surgebinder.

[hoser he/him]

Shalash evidence:

...

Niter is Jezrien evidence:

1. They both have short black beards.

I'm not of the opinion that Niter is a Herald. He could be, but I don't remember seeing anything that suggests that. Both having short trimmed beards is a weak link.

I agree that the beard is a weak link. Supposedly Shalash is his daughter and they are both somewhat dark complected with black hair. The strongest evidence for me is that Brandon and Peter have said that there are four or six heralds in the book and Brandon has said that there is much more to the opening herald scene than meets the eye. I think Jezrien has been very active and we will be seeing more of him. I accept Niter provisionally only because no-one else seems even close and it would be a handy place for him to keep an eye on the Alethi royalty from.

As for the eyes, I find the description of "Shalash's" eyes to match the knight's eyes in the Recreance vision too closely for it to be coincidence. I believe that she has spent a "lot" of time with Radiantblades.

Anyways, whether Herald's eyes change color is less significant than whether the Radiant's Blades and the fall of the Hierocracy caused the currently established Lighteye society to come into being. Which despite being a theory that I've held for less than a fortnight, I've still become rather fond of it.

Back on topic: Szeth says that Shardplate would interfere with his lashings. A true, fully trained Windrunner Radiant probably had a special relationship to their own Shardplate that allowed them to circumvent Lashing interferences. It was less a suit of armor and more an extension of their self. I think that all the Orders of Radiants could use their full Surgebinding abilities while wearing the Plate. I think that the Plate's gems were there both to power the Plate and to serve as a source of emergency Stormlight for the Surgebinder.

I basically agree with these paragraphs. I think the gems in the suit might also serve as a sort of battery/energy storage. I see the stormlight as energy from the Spiritual Realm emanating from a rift in the center of the Highstorm. My question would be whether Radiants could tap into the energy directly anytime, or whether they would charge the suits up during storms. It seems that Kaladin tapped into some energy when he oathed up the second time. Where did that energy come from?.

We know that Kaladin could retain stormlight for an order of magnitude longer than Szeth before his latest power/oath up, so he would be even better now. I don't see him staying juiced constantly between highstorms.

[The Count he/him]

Niter is Jezrien evidence:

1. They both have short black beards.

You would've thought he would have got bored of the beard after four and a half thousand years.

It must be a totally awesome beard... maybe facial hair gives the male Heralds their power (like Samson).

Edited October 9, 2012 by MadRand

[hoser he/him]

You would've thought he would have got bored of the beard after four and a half thousand years.

It must be a totally awesome beard... maybe facial hair gives the male Heralds their power (like Samson).

Actually, he has been tired of it for the last 4,999 years and keeps shaving it off. He just can't resist the itchy feeling as it grows back.

[happyman he/him]

Actually, he has been tired of it for the last 4,999 years and keeps shaving it off. He just can't resist the itchy feeling as it grows back.

I imagine that living for 5000 years or so, at some point you'd get the urge to change your lifestyle, get a new wardrobe, that kind of thing. I mean, normal people have mid-life crises at roughly 40-50. Can you imagine hitting 3300 and wondering what you are doing with your life?

[hoser he/him]

I imagine that living for 5000 years or so, at some point you'd get the urge to change your lifestyle, get a new wardrobe, that kind of thing. I mean, normal people have mid-life crises at roughly 40-50. Can you imagine hitting 3300 and wondering what you are doing with your life?

Yes! Although the idea of having over a millenium to prepare for the next major event seems somewhat attractive.

[Truthless he/him]

I skipped pages 2 and 3, so this is going back to an earlier discussion.

The Shardblades were created to fight the Voidbringers - no proof of that, of course, but it is very reasonable. When fighting a Voidbringer, some massive stone beast, the Shardblade would be the only effective weapon. It's possible that it's their present use which has degraded them - that being used to sever the cognitive aspect (again, reasonable speculation) has lowered them to something unintended, quite possibly something of Odium.

Although that's assuming that Voidbringers have no cognitive aspect, which we certainly can't do. That's an interesting line of thought... It would require knowing the first thing about Voidbringers to progress, though, and we just don't. Ah well.

More on topic - modern Shardplate seems fundamentally different from Radiant Shardplate in a manner similar to the blades. But for them, it can't be use, so it must be the users. It's a safe assumption that many of the limits of Shardplate are in fact limits of the wearer - only limits to someone without a Surge.

[Observer]

-snip-

Interesting...we always assumed it killed your spirit, but that would be hard. Maybe it just kill the bridge to spirit, you cognitive stuff...Melikely.

[Djerf he/him]

A few pages earlier there were a discussion on why the shardblade cut the spirit before cutting the physical, in respond to this.

1. Everything exists on all three realms at the same time.

2. Things can have a diffrent pressence in diffrent realms.

3. Just as matter is energy the spiritual aspect is energy to.

4. You store the shardblade in the spiritual realm.

5. shardblade has a finite amount of energy.

6. The shardblade changes when cutting living things ( I belivie it gets fussed on the edge when.

Conclusion:

The major part of the "energy" in a shardblade changes realm depending uppon what it's cutting, and for some reason it were more important to harm the spirit of the enemies the shardblades were designed to fight.

Bonus1

The blades given to the heralds might just have been given aloot more "energy" or "mass" in order to fight even worse enemies, the unmade?

Bonus2

Where do the energy to create come from? I find it most likely the the blades is made from a Shards spiritual energy, isn't it said in vorinism the the heralds gave the blades to humanity?

And thus a shardblade is a shard of a Shard or more likely, three seperate Shards.

[lDanielHolm he/him]

As for the other, I dunno. I think the reason Syl doesn't like the blades now is that they somehow got contaminated, maybe by all the people that used them selfishly after the Radiants left, maybe BECAUSE the Radiants abandoned their duty, maybe for some other reason. So maybe now people have to figure out how to fix it before they can be used properly again. Or figure out how to make new ones (maybe Talanel can do it?) But that's my theory.

They don't have to be corrupted for Syl not to like them, though. The simple fact that they have been used to kill humans--rather than thunderclasts--could be enough for her to dislike them--that perversion of their original purpose would probably be more than enough. It doesn't mean much either way, but I think it is a mistake to assume that the Shardblades are somehow "broken" simply because Syl dislikes them.