Theory: There are no Universal Soulcasters

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Axies is a Siah Aimian, from his interlude it seems Siah is the most common type of Aimian. There is a line in his interlude, but I'm at work, so I can't bring it up. Sorry for going so far off topic.

Perhaps he drew stares because of his blue nails and crystalline deep blue eyes. Aimians—even Siah Aimians—were rare. Or perhaps it was because he cast a shadow the wrong way. Toward light, instead of away from it. It was a small thing, and the shadows weren’t long, with the sun so high. But those who noticed muttered or jumped out of the way. Likely they’d heard of his kind. It hadn’t been that long since the scouring of his homeland. Just long ago enough for stories and legends to have crept into the general knowledge of most peoples.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Cheese Ninja

[happyman he/him]

I should think from the context that Hoid is talking about whether taking something apart and putting it together could result in having changed it from one thing to a similar thing.

The transformation of Human to Dysian Aimian was just an analogy that Dalinar would understand.

[Telcontar]

Aside from all your discussion that I read only furtively.

I for one, agree with the OP in that some ardents do have access to the surgebinding form of Soulcasting. to them those super-soulcasters are only sources of stormlight, like for Jasnah. (btw, we'll probably learn about it, when we get Jasnah's book)

Jasnah probably is in the fifth order, whose primary attribute is "learned". She is one of the most renowned scholars and it thusly makes sense that she attracted one of the spren that are attracted to learned persons.

Ardents on the other hand are the only men that are allowed to do research and they do so. It would only make sense that those, like Jasnah would be able to attract a spren, when being learned enough.

Jasnah, being the heretic she is, probably did some research about vorinism, and discovered their secrets, including the soulcasting thing.

[Voidus]

Jasnah, being the heretic she is, probably did some research about vorinism, and discovered their secrets, including the soulcasting thing.

Well Jasnah herself said that as far as she knows all other Soulcasters use fabrials, it's unlikely that she'd believe that if she learned about it from other Surgebinders, it's also quite unlikely that she'd bother lying to Shallan at that point. And then there's that conversation she had earlier when Shallan was convinced she was trying to disprove Vorinism; she just doesn't seem like she'd bother researching the Devotaries that much to me.

[Telcontar]

And then there's that conversation she had earlier when Shallan was convinced she was trying to disprove Vorinism; she just doesn't seem like she'd bother researching the Devotaries that much to me.

She doesn't bother now. Who says that she always felt that way?

[name_here]

I recall some hints that the Alethi were involved in a mass extermination campaign against the Aimians not too long before first meeting the Parshendi, during which the last non-Chasmfiend Greatshells were wiped out. I would guess Dysian Aimians were somehow connected to the reason behind that.

[name_here]

As far as Soulcasting Fabrials go, I suspect that they all make a single kind of transformation but the exact transformation is controlled mentally by the user. Also, the "universal" Soulcasters may just be three single transformation Soulcasters chained together, since Shallan believes Jasnah's is primarily directed towards three transformations. Given the intense secrecy around Soulcasting, it wouldn't be terribly hard to pretend one is theoretically capable of any transformation and then sub in others when performing out-of-type transformations. In the event that a sub is unavailable, the Ardent could just say it takes more power than available to make the transformation with an off-specialty Soulcaster.

Though, come to think of it, Soulcasters can't work in exactly the same manner as normal fabrials while still having all their stated properties. The Ardents allegedly can't make more of them, but Soulcasting determines which gems are most valuable because they crack when used. Shallan's and Jasnah's don't have gems besides the focal stones, and while one or possibly both of those are fake, they're presumably convincing fakes. So the Soulcaster can't seal a Spren inside a gemstone because they're unreplicable but stones are interchangeable. Of course, that doesn't mean they have to be fake; they might work on different principles from regular fabrials or seal Spren in metal. Evidence in support of them being real is that they seem to predate and other/actual fabrials and it would seem odd to disguise Radiant powers as something that didn't exist.

[Gloom he/him]

Evidence towards the OP theory.

 

On the creation of fabrials (Ars Arcanum)

The methods of their creation are carefully guarded by the artifabrian community, but they appear to be the work of scientists, as opposed to the more mystical Surgebindings once performed by the Knights Radiant.

I think the use of the word appear is significant and lends credence to the fact that not everything may be as clear as it appears to be.

 

Since soul-casting fabrials are a type of fabrial not listed in the Ars Acanum the top 10% may be the exception to this rule, or they may all have been created by soulcasters (surgebinders) and be relics of the time of the Knights Radiant. Limited soul-caster fabrials most likely do not require a nohel bond to be functional (the trapped spren can bridge the gap), but those supposed soul-casting fabrials that can create anything would almost certainly require access to Shadesmar, and as a result require a nohel bond. I believe this because a soul-casting fabrial can't be adjusted to the degree necessary to dial it to the nearly unlimited variety of items that can be created with it without being able to communicate directly with the medium (spren) that would enable the change. I could see a soul-casting fabrial capable of creating the ten essences without access to Shadesmar or communication with spren, but not the ability to create virtually any substance with a device that has such limited input capability.

[hoser he/him]

Shallan soulcasting involved communicating w/the object to be soulcast.  If the soulcaster created a communication channel between the soulcaster and the object, the complicated specifications about what to change to would come from the person, not the fabrial, and would be commmunicated directly. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Two things Gloom:

 

1) We still don't know that Shallan has formed a Nahel bond.  There is reasonable grounds to suggest that as a possibility. But, imo, not solid enough to be reasonably assured that that is the case.

 

2) Szeth has surgebinding capabilities without a Nahel bond.  This seems to clearly indicate that a Nahel bond is not always necessary for surgebinding of which, one facet is soulcasting.  So, even if a dummy soulcaster fabrial is used (such as Jasnah's), the person soulcasting (probably) does not necessarily have a Nahel bond.  

[Gloom he/him]

Granted, surgebinding and Nahel bonds may not be mutually exclusive. It is just as likely that surgebinding is augmented through a Nahel bond but that a person can surgebind independent of a Nahel bond. In fact, over time, I've been leaning more and more towards this idea. It would allow soulcasting without causing the KR to rise again.

 

For this theory to work, however, we would need another catalyst for the appearance of surgebinders outside of a spren bond, such as a innate magical gift. The question then, would be do you have to have this gift in order to create a Nahel bond, or can a spren bond someone without this gift? If so, would that bond be weaker than a bond made with someone who had an innate gift?

 

I still find it more than likely that grand soul-caster fabrials are a fiction created to cover for actual soulcasting.

 

This would of course mean that a soulcaster with a Nahel bond would be both more a powerful soulcaster because they could use their spren as a medium through which they cast. The calculations required to achieve a certain result, such as turning a boulder into smoke, could be completed more quickly with the aid of logicspren than they could without unless the soulcaster was a math savant. The spren would probably be able to train the soulcaster to use the power of Shadesmar more efficiently than they would without the aid of a spren as well.

[Morsk he/him]

Maybe grand soulcasters are just a coverup for people who have lots of soulcasters, but don't want anyone knowing they have so many. There's less pressure to share if people think you only have one.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Nice to see the old thread back in action.

 

To summarize, I would like to reiterate that I think it reasonable to posit that access to Shadesmar to be a core component of using universal soulcasters. Magics tend not to have a "deeper" level of access than they strictly need to function, and that's a lot of additional fluff on Shallan/Jasnah's soulcasting ability if it just so happens that they can also access Shadesmar on top of being able to just "talk" to objects without going there.

 

Also, Gloom, I seriously doubt the existence of "innate" soulcasters on Roshar, if only because we have it from the horse's mouth that magic on Roshar depend on people's actions. That suggests that some outside entity (read: spren) judges and responds to those actions in some way. Szeth is weird, as always.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom he/him]

Nice to see the old thread back in action.

 

You're welcome

 

To summarize, I would like to reiterate that I think it reasonable to posit that access to Shadesmar to be a core component of using universal soulcasters. Magics tend not to have a "deeper" level of access than they strictly need to function, and that's a lot of additional fluff on Shallan/Jasnah's soulcasting ability if it just so happens that they can also access Shadesmar on top of being able to just "talk" to objects without going there.

 

Also, Gloom, I seriously doubt the existence of "innate" soulcasters on Roshar, if only because we have it from the horse's mouth that magic on Roshar depend on people's actions. That suggests that some outside entity (read: spren) judges and responds to those actions in some way. Szeth is weird, as always.

 

Okay, but does this necessarily mean that they will be invested with a spren? Does it mean that they can't surgebind until they have attracted a spren? Or that a spren is more likely to be attracted to them because they have been invested? The more I go through these boards, the more I begin to believe that investiture and spren don't always go hand in hand. We have Szeth who can definitely surgebind without a spren. We have Jasnah who may or may not have a cryptic. We have Elhokar whom most likely has a cryptic but can't surgebind (yet). We have Dalinar who we have no idea what is going on with, but can assume some type of investiture is involved. Then we have Kaladin who is both invested and has a spren, but who may have been invested before Sylphrena appeared, and Shallan who has a cryptic and can soulcast, but definitely was invested in some form before she attained her cryptic and access to Shadesmar (Her knack for drawing).

 

So I think it may be possible to be a low level surgebinder without attracting a spren that would amplify your abilities. I think your theory hinges on this being true, because if the clergy surgebinders had to have cryptics to function in Shadesmar, then new KR would have risen at some point in the past, and Shallans cryptic wouldn't have been so....sleepy.

[Kurkistan he/him]

To reiterate, I primarily base my belief that people are not "innately" invested on Roshar on that Brandon quote (well, paraphrase, but you get the idea). They get magic by acting a certain way.

 

Maybe spren are the only way to judge those actions, maybe not, but I am not inclined to credit a theory that allows for "natural" surgebinders on Roshar.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm not going to argue that they are invested through anything other than actions, because as you said, we have WOB to rule that out.

 

I will say that I doubt that spren take action without a catalyst. I believe that spren are attracted to an event and reinforce it. They don't cause it. This would include investiture. Bonding spren are very likely to be attracted to people who are invested through their actions, but not everyone who is invested is likely to attract a spren because to attract a spren you have to meet the criteria that those spren require.

 

Kaladin may have become invested when he chose to protect Tien by trying to join in his place, and enlisting along side him when that failed. He almost certainly encountered Sylphrena later on the battlefield due to the devotion of his men.

[Kurkistan he/him]

So by what mechanism would people become "invested through their actions" without meeting some criteria that spren require? What other criteria are they meeting? Does Roshar just judge them and say "eh, you can get some investiture"? 

[Gloom he/him]

So by what mechanism would people become "invested through their actions" without meeting some criteria that spren require? What other criteria are they meeting? Does Roshar just judge them and say "eh, you can get some investiture"? 

 

No, they would have to meet the criteria of a spren type to attain investiture. We have strong evidence that bonding spren are not spontaneously generated. This means that you have to cross paths with the right spren in order to form a bond. This doesn't mean that you aren't invested until you cross paths with it. We also know that those who are invested can refuse or break the bond. We don't know if this damages the investiture.

 

So, what I'm saying is that the ideals are the keys to investiture, not spren. Spren enhance investiture when they bond with someone who has been properly invested in their sphere of influence. For example, Bob may risk his own life and rescue a stranger from certain death. By doing this Bob meets the criteria of investiture and become invested with the powers of a Sky Breaker. Bob may learn the basic surges of his order, and would almost certainly be as confused as Kaladin was, but unless Bob runs across a Sky Breaker spren, he'll be on his own. If Bob lives in a place where spren can't go, like Shinovar, he won't ever meet a spren, let alone the right spren. He is still invested, he can still train his surges, he just can't advance them until he has made a Nahel bond with the correct spren.

 

It is entirely possible that ardents have crossed paths with bonding spren, and in compliance with their religious orders, have banished them like evil spirits by refusing the bond.

[Shardlet he/him]

So, what I'm saying is that the ideals are the keys to investiture, not spren.

 

The ideals are the key only to KR power.  We haven't seen any indication that the ideals apply to anything outside of the KR.  The KR is not merely an organization of surgebinders who are guided by these ideals.  They are a system established (likely by Honor and Cultivation) to guide surgebinders to align themselves with certain characteristics and when they reach certain levels of alignment, they are granted a power-up.  I have seen a number of posts, both here and in the reread comments on Tor, putting forward the idea that the ideals and the KR were formed and created by Nohadon.  However, by all indications we have so far, Nohadon was a mortal king that really had his ducks in a row.  I don't see anything which even suggests that he had the power to establish the power-up ideals aspect of the KR.  I also don't see any indication that shardplate and blades could be produced by anything other than direct Shardic involvement.  The indication that the KR was the group that had these (largely) exclusively, further suggests direct Shardic involvement with the creation and powering of the KR.

 

Edit:  FYI, Gloom,  only the first sentence is a response to your comment.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom he/him]

I suppose this depends on what you consider an indication. I have seen evidence that people are invested prior to receiving a spren. I have seen evidence of at least one of those people attaining a spren after investment. I believe Kaladin was invested prior to crossing paths with Sylphrena, but I know Shallan had some type of investment prior to crossing paths with her cryptic. We know that Jasnah can travel to Shadesmar, we don't know she has a spren bond. We know Dalinar has some type of investment going on, we have no evidence to suggest he has a spren. We know that soulcasting is a form of surgebinding.

 

In Roshar, investiture has to be earned. If investiture isn't earned by following the ideals then by what means is it earned? What evidence is there to support the supposition that the ideals are only important to those already invested? Or that once a person is invested that they must be bound to a spren and follow the ideals to retain their investiture?

[Shardlet he/him]

Because they are identified as the ideals of the KR not the ideals of surgebinding or ideals of the Almighty or the ideals of power, etc.  That is my basis for tying them closely with the KR exclusively.  I mean, you could say that is an in-world understanding and therefore unreliable, but most of our evidence for all the theories here is based on in-world understanding. 

 

I don't have a problem with there being some form of innate investiture or power ability.  I was not responding to that.  Likewise, I don't have a problem with power and ability being tied to meeting certain qualifications based of action and/or intent.  I just have qualms about tying all surgebinding to adherence to the ideals of the KR.  Could non-KR surgebinders make choices that would bring them into the KR and receve the power-ups through attainment of the ideals?  Sure.  I would also expect that anyone who developed in such a way outside of the KR would be drawn to the KR.  Why wouldn't they?

 

If the KR became corrupt then most of the KR would abandon the organization and...wait .

Edited September 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, were not really disagreeing, we just don't agree with each other fully. Let me see. I'm not saying that everyone who becomes invested will become a KR, only that at some point they did something that earned them that investiture that fell in line with the ideals. Most likely some sort of self sacrifice. Even Szeth may fall into this group.

 

To become a KR you have to adopt the ideals and embrace them. This journey is the key to becoming a KR. If you fail to follow the ideals, but have received an investiture you stagnate at that level. I would even go so far as to say that once you begin to follow the ideals you can renounce your investiture. If Kaladin sent Syl away, it could have resulted in a rejection of the investiture and allowed Kaladin to become a real boy again. It was implied that this would be the case. But if you received an investiture, it may give you some benefits such as access to Shadesmar or basic lashings even if you fail to progress further on the road to full investiture by becoming a KR.

 

The the difference I'm trying to clarify is that the path to becoming a KR is a conscious decision, while the act of becoming invested could be a result of actions taken for the right reasons. Those actions could be taken in complete ignorance of the ideals, but would fall in line with them at some level. Those who are invested have the potential to become KR, but they may lack the determination, conviction, or desire to do so.

 

Kaladin wasn't a KR until the last battle of the book. He embraced the first and second ideal within minutes of each other. Until this point, he was only invested, not a KR. Shallan is only invested, spren or no spren. Unless she consciously decides to take the journey to becoming a KR she will stagnate, or perhaps because of her spren, be forced to renounce her investiture should she decide against it.

 

This would of course, only apply to investitures from Honor and Cultivation.