Taravangian's Intelligence

[FlashWrogan he/him]

So I was looking around theoryland for a specific quote when I ran into this huge tidbit that I had never heard of before.

TORTELLINI

This is a big one and I hadn't heard any of this before. A girl asked what was up with Taravangian, since it seemed a rough break between the tottering old man and the scheming mastermind that Szeth meets at the end.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The answer is quite surprising. Brandon said that Taravangian used the Old Magic, and that he wakes up each day with a different IQ. Sometimes he's a genius, sometimes he's an idiot. So what he does is he writes up math puzzles for himself in the evening, and if he cannot get a certain score in the morning the guards have orders to just take care of him and keep him away from important decisions for that day. That way he keeps his effect (personal speculation, it could be his curse, but also his boon if e.g. he asked for intelligence and only got it part-time) under control.

Source

I figured I would share the wealth for any newer members who hadn't heard of this either. It makes me wonder what other easter eggs are hidden in theoryland. I may have to spend a day hunting through the entire website

[Leuthie]

If that's true...I'm disappoint. I had assumed he was playing dumb to misdirect people, get them to underestimate him. Megalomaniac hiding behind a "Stupid mask" seems more narratively interesting than Old Magic hokey pokey.

[Kurkistan he/him]

If that's true...I'm disappoint. I had assumed he was playing dumb to misdirect people, get them to underestimate him. Megalomaniac hiding behind a "Stupid mask" seems more narratively interesting than Old Magic hokey pokey.

It's probably both. He maintains the "stupid mask" all the time in public, and is known for his stunning mental mediocrity. He may well have been inspired to (slash forced into) this by the effects of the curse/boon, though.

[happyman he/him]

Frankly, this sounds to me like a kind of continuing nightmare. He must have asked for a really selfish boon. It remind me of the contrast between being healthy and sick. Ugh. I wouldn't trade with him for anything.

And it's definitely both magic and scheming. He was pretty much forced into a situation where either everybody knew abut his condition, or where he had to cultivate a reputation for stupidity. Depending on his ambition, he probably picked the only way forward. Still, I don't envy him in the slightest.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Frankly, this sounds to me like a kind of continuing nightmare. He must have asked for a really selfish boon. It remind me of the contrast between being healthy and sick. Ugh. I wouldn't trade with him

Would you prefer to have a constant IQ of 80, or a fluctuating IQ of 80+3d20?

[Morsk he/him]

I could live with Taravangian's boon/curse as a megalomaniac schemer, but it would make social life really unfun. As a schemer, waking up stupid is like "You have the day off, go watch TV. You can take over the world tomorrow." But socially, he must have no friends or hobbies. I guess as royalty he can pass the time walking around and waving at people...

edit: Actually it's kind of like involuntary Feruchemy.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Morsk

[hoser he/him]

I could live with Taravangian's boon/curse as a megalomaniac schemer, but it would make social life really unfun. As a schemer, waking up stupid is like "You have the day off, go watch TV. You can take over the world tomorrow." But socially, he must have no friends or hobbies. I guess as royalty he can pass the time walking around and waving at people...

I don't know.

On stupid days, drafting lists of "friendly" other leaders to decide to assassinate on smart days. Or hanging out with fawning ardents while pretending to be kind. Or slowly killing people who trusted your scam by draining their blood. For megalomaniac schemers, the fun never ends.

Seriously though, one problem is that pretending to be a kindly stupid person when one is really an evil megalomaniac stupid person seems difficult. For a genuinely stupid person to convincingly imitate an entirely different kind of stupid person probably wouldn't work that well. On "bad" days, he should probably just sit around and drain blood.

[Leuthie]

I don't think he's evil...at least his ends aren't. I think he's kindly enough to actually be kind on his stupid days. Its actually his IQ that allows his lack of morality to show through in the means toward his ends.

[Millennium]

I don't think he's evil...at least his ends aren't. I think he's kindly enough to actually be kind on his stupid days. Its actually his IQ that allows his lack of morality to show through in the means toward his ends.

Maybe, though the Nightwatcher might not see things that way. It's possible that when she decided to give him that curse, she did so knowing what he would do with his boon.

[happyman he/him]

Would you prefer to have a constant IQ of 80, or a fluctuating IQ of 80+3d20?

That's a fair question. It does rather matter what he started with, doesn't it?

[Senor Feesh]

Would you prefer to have a constant IQ of 80, or a fluctuating IQ of 80+3d20?

This assumes it never goes lower than your given, below-average baseline. What if before seeking the magic he was average (100), and now his IQ can range anywhere from 50-150 (or an even greater range)?

Given that choice, I'd rather stay average.

[happyman he/him]

If nothing else, it would be a bit of an organizational nightmare, as we see from what little Brandon said about it. How do you give orders that you can't countermand when you are far too stupid to know why you shouldn't countermand them? To make it really stick and be useful, you have to have other people you deeply trust who know about the IQ changes, and thus can make stable judgements about your ability to give commands.

As a normal person living with a normal family whom I trust, I could see it working out OK. Taragavinian's situation seems much, much trickier. What do you do if your scheming suddenly comes to a head on the day your IQ is 65? You'd have to make special arrangements, for instance, if Szeth was going to pay you a visit---can't be too stupid when he comes calling.

Edited March 13, 2013 by happyman

[king of nowhere]

The part about him setting math problems in the evening don''t make much sense. He could not do that on a stupid day. Would make more sense if he had a book full of math problems. Anyway I like the idea, and also the way he coped with it.

[Kurkistan he/him]

^He could just try and try again on the same problem until a day where he can solve it, and then formulate a new one that same day.

[Leuthie]

If you can't trust yourself to be prepared to make quick changes to a plan, you set up plans that don't require quick changes and contingencies should those plans get mucked up. It doesn't take much intelligence to remember how to handle Szeth should he arrive on a stupid day. IQ and memory are two different things.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Leuthie

[BlairJ he/him]

If you can't trust yourself to be prepared to make quick changes to a plan, you set up plans that don't require quick changes and contingencies should those plans get mucked up. It doesn't take much intelligence to remember how to handle Szeth should he arrive on a stupid day. IQ and memory are two different things.

I think that this is actually quite an interesting point. IQ and memory are indeed separate. Maybe the questions should be, what would the conversation have been like, if Szeth had arrived on a particularly low IQ day. Based on their conversation and the eloquence of his words, his IQ must have been at least medium to high.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think that this is actually quite an interesting point. IQ and memory are indeed separate. Maybe the questions should be, what would the conversation have been like, if Szeth had arrived on a particularly low IQ day. Based on their conversation and the eloquence of his words, his IQ must have been at least medium to high.

He probably would have had Szeth change his clothing and go to bed, and properly dealt with him on a high int day.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Krelian]

He probably would have had Szeth change his clothing and go to bed, and properly dealt with him on a high int day.

Agreed. He could remember that Szeth had to obey his commands even if he was a drooling mess on that given day, really. Knowing to say "don't harm me, come back later" doesn't require very much intelligence at all.

[BlairJ he/him]

Agreed. He could remember that Szeth had to obey his commands even if he was a drooling mess on that given day, really. Knowing to say "don't harm me, come back later" doesn't require very much intelligence at all.

As long as he could choke out the words and have his grubby palms on the oathstone....

[hoser he/him]

Actually, this is a significant problem. He is utterly dependent on having a second in command with intelligence, judgment, authority and trustworthiness. In an average year, assuming that bad days are as likely as good, he will be unable to make important decisions for five days running 15 times (assuming 500 20 hour days/yr). He will be out for 6 days running 8 times. He will be out for 7 days 4 times, 8 days twice and nine days once.

If he gives himself math problems that take 20% greater intelligence than average to solve, he will have one good day in three. He will be unavailable for important decisions for 5 days running 40 times/year, 6 days 26 times, 7 days 18 times, 8 days 12 times, 9 days 8 times and even one random time/year, his organization would be leaderless for ~14 days.

Effectively, he should not be a leader. He should just act as a figurehead taking orders from the real leader most of the time and act as a consultant on his "good" days.

[BlairJ he/him]

Just as a note; we don't know if it is an equal split of good days and bad days. Though, come to think of it, maybe him being an "idiot" is not as bad as we are thinking. Sure, he should not be making decisions for the kingdom, but there are some people who have lower IQs (maybe myself included :)/> ) that are perfectly capable of making ordinary decisions, but should not be in charge of a nation.

We do not know Brandon's full thoughts on this, but he may not reach a "cognitively impaired" level and therefore, functions as a normal person, just not one that should be making huge decisions that day. The "I am a smart guy, but should not be running the United States" idea.

This makes me think of maybe going from the learned IQ of a normal person and reverts to the thought patterns of a child. If you think about it, the child will make some poor decisions based on how they view the world, but I promise you if it is something as important as the oathstone and Szeth, they would follow through regardless of age (passed a certain age of course).

Another thing that could be in effect here is that the cognitive processes could be running differently from day to day. For example, one day he could be sharp as a tack. The next day, he could still have some sense in that brain of his but not know exactly for the life of him where he placed "that damnation sock".

Finally, we do not know how often his IQ is low and how often it is high or in-between. Maybe only every once in a while does he wake up and simply not have the IQ to run a nation. The fact that he agrees to the test each day (meaning it is locked somewhere in his memory suggests that it is not completely unmanageable, even when his is LIQ (Low IQed)).

There are a lot of scenarios that could play into this....

Edited March 13, 2013 by BlairJ

[Millennium]

Actually, this is a significant problem. He is utterly dependent on having a second in command with intelligence, judgment, authority and trustworthiness. In an average year, assuming that bad days are as likely as good, he will be unable to make important decisions for five days running 15 times (assuming 500 20 hour days/yr). He will be out for 6 days running 8 times. He will be out for 7 days 4 times, 8 days twice and nine days once.

If he gives himself math problems that take 20% greater intelligence than average to solve, he will have one good day in three. He will be unavailable for important decisions for 5 days running 40 times/year, 6 days 26 times, 7 days 18 times, 8 days 12 times, 9 days 8 times and even one random time/year, his organization would be leaderless for ~14 days.

Effectively, he should not be a leader. He should just act as a figurehead taking orders from the real leader most of the time and act as a consultant on his "good" days.

Many kingdoms have been de facto ruled for a time by the king's advisers, while a mad (or bad) king dithers about looking like a king and not doing much else. It's not the greatest thing for a kingdom's health as a civilization, but it is survivable, and depending on how problematic the actual king is, it can be better than the alternative.

Kharbranth is probably set up to look like this. No doubt the advisers believe that it is. For some specific advisers with especially demanding tasks, or responsibilities that Taravangian considers lower-priority than his own projects, it might even be true (though not for the reason they think). Meanwhile, Taravangian manipulates the other advisers from behind the scenes, getting them to do his will while thinking it's all their own ideas.

[hoser he/him]

Brandon can fix the "bad" days many ways. I'm sure that he will surprise and delight us!

He could give him a disproportionate number of good days, as suggested above, which would be disappointing to me, because I see the Nightwatcher as having her own integrity. He could have his original intelligence be high, and the variance could be around a mean of his original intelligence (so, on the IQ scale (not to suggest that IQ tests are valid) he could be mean 140) and a standard deviation such that he would be intelligent a significant amount of the time.

If he is incapacitated a significant amount of the time, it will affect his organization. I am curious to see how Brandon handles it. Decisions, even decisions to defer, will need to be made. On genius days, T will be able to design systems to accommodate and give detailed contingency instructions.

Nevertheless, there will be a significant number of days when the organization and T will be effectively led by his #2. Everybody will defer to #2 and #2 will be used to making paramount decisions. This should have an impact on the organization.

[Asha'man Logain]

I don't think he's evil...at least his ends aren't. I think he's kindly enough to actually be kind on his stupid days. Its actually his IQ that allows his lack of morality to show through in the means toward his ends.

While this thinking may be a valid philiosophy here, on Earth, it runs antithetical to the way Roshar runs. The whole basis for magic (that we've seen) is based on the fact that ends do not justify the means. Specifically "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."

One could argue that cultivation might have the opposite approach. That anything that builds up or influences things for the better, in the end is ok. I think this would depend on how Odium, honor, and Cultivation have reacted and mingled. I think it is, and would be, far to easy for Odium to influence those who do wrong, thinking it'll be ok if it all works out in the end.

[Leuthie]

I.totally agree. He's obviously the "means don't justify ends" object lesson. Doesn't make him evil. Makes him a pawn for evil.