How he's still around (SPOILERS)

[Senor Feesh]

I'm assuming this is referring to Kelsier being killed with a spear (am I correct saying Mistborn spoilers on the Mistborn board don't need tagging?). If this was done correctly, the spear would become a Hemalurgic spike. I have not personally seen anything to confirm that this is the case; however I can't claim to have read every single interview (or the entirety of the Theoryland database for that matter).

 

If the spear IS a spike, though, I wonder what it stole...

[Observer]

Why the heck the rebels would charge their allomantic god with a metal spear is beyond me, but okay.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Dark, straight, and ominous, for some reason they made her think of Kelsier, lying dead in the street, an obsidian-tipped spear jutting from his chest

Yeah it wasn't metal.

[Observer]

Yeah it wasn't metal.

 

Thanks for the quote. Yeah, that wouldn't make much sense as a metal spear. So much for spike theories I guess, unless you intend to use hemalurgic loopholes to squeeze Kelsier into a new body.

 

That's for another time and thread though.

[Vortaan he/him]

Yes.

 

Hrm. So I wonder what he stole with them. Feruchemy or Allomancy or both?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hrm. So I wonder what he stole with them. Feruchemy or Allomancy or both?

I don't think there's any rule against storing multiple abilities in atium spikes.

[Vortaan he/him]

I don't think there's any rule against storing multiple abilities in atium spikes.

 

Didn't one of the Ars Arcanums or Sazed comments mention you can only steal one power at a time with an atium spike? 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Didn't one of the Ars Arcanums or Sazed comments mention you can only steal one power at a time with an atium spike?

Yeah, you can only steal one from a particular person, but we know from koloss that you can accumulate additiona charge by repeated stabbings.

[Vortaan he/him]

Chapter 42 heading

 

I often wonder what effect the constant reuse of spikes had on their population. A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so the could no create spike that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from.

 

So the question is how much of a charge does taking an Allomantic or Feruchemical ability take? Since you can only take one at a time with an atium spike, I'm inclined to think quite a lot. Keep in mind too that the spikes were also metalminds, which has to take up some charge space as well.

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm not sure that a Feruchemical charge and a Hemalurgic attribute really are the same sort of thing or able to interfere with one another. A metalmind stores a bit of power, while a spike is attached to a bit of Spiritweb. They seem fundamentally different to me.

[Vortaan he/him]

I'm not sure that a Feruchemical charge and a Hemalurgic attribute really are the same sort of thing or able to interfere with one another. A metalmind stores a bit of power, while a spike is attached to a bit of Spiritweb. They seem fundamentally different to me.

 

They are both Investiture. I wouldn't be surprised if a metal only has a limited capacity to hold Investiture. That could be another reason Inquisitors had to rest so often. They couldn't store as much health as a Feruchemist, since they didn't wear metal minds.

[Windrunner he/him]

I still don't think that they would interfere with one another. Just because they're both investiture doesn't mean that they're the exact same type of investiture.

 

Here's another more practical reason why I don't think they interfere with one another. The Lord Ruler's bracers doubled as spikes and metalminds. Why would he do that if the two investiture types crowded one another out? He has access to as much atium as he could possibly want. The only logical reason I personally see is that they did not affect one another.

[Vortaan he/him]

I still don't think that they would interfere with one another. Just because they're both investiture doesn't mean that they're the exact same type of investiture.

 

Here's another more practical reason why I don't think they interfere with one another. The Lord Ruler's bracers doubled as spikes and metalminds. Why would he do that if the two investiture types crowded one another out? He has access to as much atium as he could possibly want. The only logical reason I personally see is that they did not affect one another.

 

I'd wager they each held one single Feruchemical or Allomantic ability. I doubt they were reused to grab multiple abilities, but really that's just my opinion. I really feel like an item that holds Investiture has a limited ability to do so no matter what kind of Investiture is in it. I doubt you can use Shardplate to hold much of a Feruchemical charge, or Nightblood for Hemalurgy. It's just a feeling I have, but I could very well be wrong.

 

As for the bracers, does it seem odd to you that TLR could store 3,000 or so years of age in two atium bracers? 1,000 years a day over three days... seems odd he never hit the limit on how much Feruchemical charge he could put in them.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Atium is a god metal. I suspect that it's far more effective at holding a hemalurgic or feruchemic charge than normal ones.

[Satsuoni he/him]

A small note: all spikes for inquisitors were created in the same way - through the heart. Used on Mistborn, steel spike would steal 4 abilities at once, but the inquisitor would only gain one depending on the point in his body the spike went into. It is, afaik, unknown what happens to other abilities or if the spike can be bent to go through several bind points. Atium has been stated to be better at keeping hemalurgy charge, in addition to bring able to steal anything . From recent AMA that would mean " anything encoded in the soul".

Also, I have seen it somewhere that charges do not interfere, but can't find it. I am with Wind on this one. While Investitures do interfere (in theoryland now), it can be argued that Hemalurgy and Feruchemy don't fill spike to investiture capacity, even both together, instead having separate limits...

[Vortaan he/him]

A small note: all spikes for inquisitors were created in the same way - through the heart. Used on Mistborn, steel spike would steal 4 abilities at once, but the inquisitor would only gain one depending on the point in his body the spike went into. It is, afaik, unknown what happens to other abilities or if the spike can be bent to go through several bind points. Atium has been stated to be better at keeping hemalurgy charge, in addition to bring able to steal anything . From recent AMA that would mean " anything encoded in the soul".

Also, I have seen it somewhere that charges do not interfere, but can't find it. I am with Wind on this one. While Investitures do interfere (in theoryland now), it can be argued that Hemalurgy and Feruchemy don't fill spike to investiture capacity, even both together, instead having separate limits...

 

Where is the quote for the first one? I distinctly remember either a Sazed quote or one from Marsh that says using Mistborn for Hemalurgy was a waste because you only took one ability at a time. If you're arguing that each bindpoint only gives one ability, I might buy that, but as far as I remember, spikes take one ability per kill. Whether they can take on more abilities through repeated killings is kind of up in the air. 

 

The reason I suspect both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy take up the same area of charge space is that apparently both can have an effect if the metal is burned. It just makes me think that any object can only hold so much Investiture. Otherwise, you could in theory have a spike that is used to kill a Thug, a Brute, and then be used as a storage for Compunding... it seems like too much power for one object to have.

[Satsuoni he/him]

On the phone now, so I can't search for quotes now, but it was in HoA I believe that Marsh described how inquisitors are made. Essentially, you charge all spikes in the same way - through the heart. Then you can hold on to the spike for a while. So when is the charge type decided? Indeed, there are several bind points that define what power you get - if there were several on the spike, that is. Whether that would destroy other abilities at the moment of binding is unknown. There are several bind points for each ability ( we know of at least two for Allo Steel and Bronze) , possibly with different side effects. There is also Sazed's epigraph stating " the art of hemalurgy is knowledge of where to place a spike" ( paraphrase)

As for Investiture limits, there is an interesting tidbit in the recent AMA, now in the database. Essentially, there are limits. That being said, I doubt they are reached. But maybe. I'll search more on pc.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

You're assuming there's only one bind point in the heart area.

And, well, the RPG treats the spikes as separate, and that's the type of mistake that would get ironed out.

[Vortaan he/him]

On the phone now, so I can't search for quotes now, but it was in HoA I believe that Marsh described how inquisitors are made. Essentially, you charge all spikes in the same way - through the heart. Then you can hold on to the spike for a while. So when is the charge type decided? Indeed, there are several bind points that define what power you get - if there were several on the spike, that is. Whether that would destroy other abilities at the moment of binding is unknown. There are several bind points for each ability ( we know of at least two for Allo Steel and Bronze) , possibly with different side effects. There is also Sazed's epigraph stating " the art of hemalurgy is knowledge of where to place a spike" ( paraphrase)

As for Investiture limits, there is an interesting tidbit in the recent AMA, now in the database. Essentially, there are limits. That being said, I doubt they are reached. But maybe. I'll search more on pc.

 

There has to be another way to charge a spike besides through the heart. Brandon's said that it's possible for someone to survive it, but they'd be a very different person. So unless he was talking about the specific instance of a Bloodmaker getting another attribute taken, but not his Feruchemy, there should be a way to create a spike without stabbing someone through the heart with it.

[Satsuoni he/him]

There has to be another way to charge a spike besides through the heart. Brandon's said that it's possible for someone to survive it, but they'd be a very different person. So unless he was talking about the specific instance of a Bloodmaker getting another attribute taken, but not his Feruchemy, there should be a way to create a spike without stabbing someone through the heart with it.

I believe you are correct, but I don't think they knew that during TLR reign. TLR himself might have known, though.

EDIT:

There is info on this in annotations

 

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

 

You're assuming there's only one bind point in the heart area.

And, well, the RPG treats the spikes as separate, and that's the type of mistake that would get ironed out.

 

There are probably a lot of them in the heart (I prefer referring to them as donor bind points), if not all. I am, however, assuming that it is rather hard to hit a single particular point in a small area with something "like a thick railroad spike" while using a sledgehammer...

Edited April 22, 2013 by Satsuoni

[dj26792 he/him]

I've always assumed it was a bit like filling a bottle with water and wrapping a bit of string around the outside, they're both attached to the bottle but they dont interfere with each other

[Phantom Monstrosity]

There are probably a lot of them in the heart (I prefer referring to them as donor bind points), if not all. I am, however, assuming that it is rather hard to hit a single particular point in a small area with something "like a thick railroad spike" while using a sledgehammer...

Inquistors have superhuman abilities. I imagine it's a lot like doing ice carving with a chainsaw.

[happyman he/him]

Some general cosmere comments in here, nothing really spoilery, I hope.

I'd just like to comment briefly on the Investiture issue with metals:

 

I consider it possible (maybe even likely) that there is an upper limit on the amount of Investiture any specific physical object can hold.  This seems like a good global contraint on the cosmere as a whole.

However, I'd also point out that some of the other forms of Investiture that we have seen are clearly much more powerful than, say, a hemalurgically charged piece of metal.  If you didn't know the metal contained Investiture, it would act normal.  This is emphatically not the case for other invested objects we have seen.  Thus although I believe that there is indeed a limit, I suspect that in the books published so far, no Feruchemist, Allomancer, Hemalurgist, or any combination of the above, have come even close to hitting the absolute limit.  Thus I suspect that in practice, the investitures haven't interferred with each other, even if they could in theory.

Edited April 22, 2013 by happyman

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I consider it possible (maybe even likely) that there is an upper limit on the amount of Investiture any specific physical object can hold. This seems like a good global contraint on the cosmere as a whole.

Well, you can apparently cram an entire shard into a corpse. Though at that point...

[happyman he/him]

Well, you can apparently cram an entire shard into a corpse. Though at that point...

 

Yeah, there is definitely a physical limit on holding investiture.  On the other hand, this probably gives a scale for how big that limit is.

I seriously doubt that any of the metallic arts have ever interferred with each other "up to this point" in the canon.