Fantasy Pet Peeve Discussion Thread

[Quiver he/him]

Agreed, that's been bothering me all along.

So, would you say misspellings are one of your fantasy pet peeves?

Let's discut!

[Mailliw73 he/him]

More like one of my very real pet peeves. Discution over.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

U guise r evul.

[Kaymyth she/her]

So, would you say misspellings are one of your fantasy pet peeves?

Let's discut!

 

 

More like one of my very real pet peeves. Discution over.

 

 

U guise r evul.

 

You are all terrible people and you should feel bad. 

 

 

(I leaven this statement with upvotes.)

[Delightful]

I'm so tird that ths is hilaryus. Will regret tmrrw.

That being said, discution was painful to me to i just didn't know wat to do about t.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

You heard it here first, people. Typos wither away at chaos' soul and ravage his body. Show him no quarter.

I shall exploit this newfound weakness!

[king of nowhere]

Girls don't want to look like sexy bimbos who break our spines to show off the boobs and butt position.

Well, to be honest, some of them do.

Heck, I'd love to say that men don't think with their nether regions and won't by a product they don't need just because the advertising shows some half-naked woman there, but, to be honest, some of them do.

Now, I admit I'm not an expert of marketing, but I know they divide the market in "segments", and each segment has specific things it wants. So, when they put out oversexualized content, the marketing guys will tell you they are targeting the market segments "girls who want to look like sexy bimbos" and "men who think with their nether regions"

 

@ comic book heroes being remmade as belonging to minorities:

I am not into comics, and I don't know much of how they work, but I have to ask: how can the producers get away with so many retcons? That's  far from the only instance; I know superman had more powers that got removed, or that in some comics stuff happened and then in later episodes it was retconned. That kind of thing would annoy me greatly. I can see the marketing value of calling "captain america" or "thor" a totally new guy who just happen to have similar themes, but I'd have a hard time reading stories about a character that is supposedly always the same and yet has changed appearence and significant details of his background several times already.

[Delightful]

KoN, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Girls don't want to break their spines trying to look sexy. When media sells them "this is what sexy looks like", some will try go for that unattainable goal of a broken back. But thats not a draw card for a game. Sure, a gorgeous character can be a draw card, but not one who desperately needs a chiropractor and some surgery. That's no girls fantasy, believe me.

[Sera]

By the way, my pet peeve isn't a Fantasy only one:

Unlikable characters, particularly those also full of angst, who happens to be over competent—because everyone in the setting has the sharp wits of a wet sponge—, whose every flaw is actually a perk, adored or respected by everyone despite horribly mistreating them.

 

Mary Sue, Gary Stu, I'm looking at you.

 

I love to read a well written unlikable character, and even the over competent and arrogant ones, as long that everyone else in the setting doesn't suffer from poor characterization.

 

I wasn't aware I had such issue with poor characterization+Sue until I bought a highly praised dark fantasy book I shall not name. Its plot: "what if King Joffrey were full of wangst and were as feared and respected by his cardboard cutout peers as he thought he was in ASoIaF because reasons?". Instant shatter of suspension of disbelief. No, in fact the protagonist isn't Joffrey, though even the name hits close enough.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Sera

[Voidus]

My pet peeve is any character that reminds me of Egwene, who remains one of the only characters I've ever read who I actually hate. (Aside from of course every single character in the Twilight saga who shall not be counted or mentioned)

Edited September 25, 2015 by Voidus

[Left he/him]

My pet peeve is any character that reminds me of Egwene, who remains one of the only characters I've ever read who I actually hate. (Aside from of course every single character in the Twilight saga who shall not be counted or mentioned)

You know it's funny, I remember liking her up until the white tower got reunited( That's not really a spoiler is it?), and after that.......I was really, really happy how her arc was wrapped up, I'll say it that way.

A pet peeve of mine is when an author fills up the cast with characters that feel pretty human/decently developed anyway, but also incredibly annoying. I hated the Ender books past the 1st one because Card's characters drove me nuts! I would've been happy if they'd all died. I don't understand authors who fill books with characters who are sandpaper. Card is the worst I know, but the two Robin Hobb books I read were also bad. (Don't kill me, I know most people like them, the characters and pacing were painful for me though)

[Orlion Blight he/him]

 Card is the worst I know, but the two Robin Hobb books I read were also bad. (Don't kill me, I know most people like them, the characters and pacing were painful for me though)

 

First, I'll turn you into a flea...a harmless little flea! Then, I'll put that flea in a box! And I'll put that box in another box! I'll mail that box to myself, and when it arrives: I'LL SMASH IT WITH A HAMMER!

 

[Quiver he/him]

@ comic book heroes being remmade as belonging to minorities:

I am not into comics, and I don't know much of how they work, but I have to ask: how can the producers get away with so many retcons? That's far from the only instance; I know superman had more powers that got removed, or that in some comics stuff happened and then in later episodes it was retconned. That kind of thing would annoy me greatly. I can see the marketing value of calling "captain america" or "thor" a totally new guy who just happen to have similar themes, but I'd have a hard time reading stories about a character that is supposedly always the same and yet has changed appearence and significant details of his background several times already.

Well, in the case of Thor and Cap, they aren't the same characters. The classic versions -the Odinson and Steve Rogers- have been replaced with new people using those names -a woman and Sam Wilson.

Changing a character is a little more contentious, and grounds for a different discussion. For instance, there is kind of a big complaint in comic fans at the moment with regards Wally West.

Traditionally, Wally was Kid Flash (the Flash's sidekick), and a white, ginger guy. He eventually grew up, became the Flash, married and had kids.

In the New52 universe, Wally was recently reintroduced as a black kid, and hasn't any super powers yet.

On the one hand, you could point to this with the same arguments as the Captain/Thor examples; DC is being progressive and updating a classic character for modern audiences.

On the other hand, there has been a HUGE backlash against it, because this Wally West isn't anything like the Wally fans had before- his attitude, personality, background and race are all different. He's Wally West In Name Only.

And that bothers people, because that's a case of changing the character. If 52!Wally was a new Kid Flash who happened to be black, I doubt there'd be such anger against him...but as it is, there's fans who want the "real" Wally back, and having this version is annoying to them.

(I don't have a dog in this fight, since I've never read Flash comics).

(Alan Scott is kind of in the same boat, since his version these days is gay...but Alan was a relatively minor character before anyway, so the changes slipped through without much fuss. Wally was THE Flash for decades, so its a bigger deal...and I say that as a JSA fan)

Basically, retcons and fans can be weird?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Quiver

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Well, in the case of Thor and Cap, they aren't the same characters. The classic versions -the Odinson and Steve Rogers- have been replaced with new people using those names -a woman and Sam Wilson.

Changing a character is a little more contentious, and grounds for a different discussion. For instance, there is kind of a big complaint in comic fans at the moment with regards Wally West.

Traditionally, Wally was Kid Flash (the Flash's sidekick), and a white, ginger guy. He eventually grew up, became the Flash, married and had kids.

In the New52 universe, Wally was recently reintroduced as a black kid, and hasn't any super powers yet.

On the one hand, you could point to this with the same arguments as the Captain/Thor examples; DC is being progressive and updating a classic character for modern audiences.

On the other hand, there has been a HUGE backlash against it, because this Wally West isn't anything like the Wally fans had before- his attitude, personality, background and race are all different. He's Wally West In Name Only.

And that bothers people, because that's a case of changing the character. If 52!Wally was a new Kid Flash who happened to be black, I doubt there'd be such anger against him...but as it is, there's fans who want the "real" Wally back, and having this version is annoying to them.

(I don't have a dog in this fight, since I've never read Flash comics).

(Alan Scott is kind of in the same boat, since his version these days is gay...but Alan was a relatively minor character before anyway, so the changes slipped through without much fuss. Wally was THE Flash for decades, so its a bigger deal...and I say that as a JSA fan)

Basically, retcons and fans can be weird?

 

This is a very important distinction to make when partaking in these discussions. I hate when people call comic nerds prejudiced when their complaints are along the lines of Wally and Alan. Retconning a character is a big no-no, particularly one that everyone loves. 

 

It's like the complaints people have for movies based on books. Why did you change that character's hair? Why is the breed of cat in Hunger Games not correct? Why is the Johnny Storm black, when he's always been a white guy?

 

It's not meant to be disrespectful, and it's not meant to be prejudiced (99% of the time). It's a legitimate questioning of why you're changing the character.

 

[rant]

As a HUGE Green Lantern fan, when they announced Alan as being gay, I was initially upset because the original Alan 1) was not gay and 2) had biological children who also became supers, something that wouldn't be true should he have been gay. I got over it for two main reasons: 1) Alan is so underused that he pretty much doesn't matter and 2) Alan's claim to fame was WAY back in the golden age of comics, and I'm not old enough to have truly known his stories.

 

It might sound shallow, but I would much rather see them make a brand new gay character rather than changing an old one. For example, they did introduce a new GL: Simon Baz. They could have made him gay (he does represent a minority; he's muslim). They've also got an even newer GL coming down the line, and they could make her a lesbian. But retconning Alan, just...why? For what purpose? And to then not use him ever, making the change pointless? Ugh...

[/rant]

[Voidus]

You know it's funny, I remember liking her up until the white tower got reunited( That's not really a spoiler is it?), and after that.......I was really, really happy how her arc was wrapped up, I'll say it that way.

A pet peeve of mine is when an author fills up the cast with characters that feel pretty human/decently developed anyway, but also incredibly annoying. I hated the Ender books past the 1st one because Card's characters drove me nuts! I would've been happy if they'd all died. I don't understand authors who fill books with characters who are sandpaper. Card is the worst I know, but the two Robin Hobb books I read were also bad. (Don't kill me, I know most people like them, the characters and pacing were painful for me though)

I remember not really hating her as much before, she was always annoying but before the white tower she was just 'that annoying character' for me, I didn't feel as empathetic to her but I still enjoyed reading her scenes. Afterwards though it was just... Yeah. Annoying doesn't begin to describe it. I've never before or since felt like it about a character but she's the one character I actively hated. And her ending was just more of the same for me.

I'm also not a big fan of Hobb though all I've read is Farseer.

[Quiver he/him]

This is a very important distinction to make when partaking in these discussions. I hate when people call comic nerds prejudiced when their complaints are along the lines of Wally and Alan. Retconning a character is a big no-no, particularly one that everyone loves. 

 

It's like the complaints people have for movies based on books. Why did you change that character's hair? Why is the breed of cat in Hunger Games not correct? Why is the Johnny Storm black, when he's always been a white guy?

 

It's not meant to be disrespectful, and it's not meant to be prejudiced (99% of the time). It's a legitimate questioning of why you're changing the character.

 

[rant]

As a HUGE Green Lantern fan, when they announced Alan as being gay, I was initially upset because the original Alan 1) was not gay and 2) had biological children who also became supers, something that wouldn't be true should he have been gay. I got over it for two main reasons: 1) Alan is so underused that he pretty much doesn't matter and 2) Alan's claim to fame was WAY back in the golden age of comics, and I'm not old enough to have truly known his stories.

 

It might sound shallow, but I would much rather see them make a brand new gay character rather than changing an old one. For example, they did introduce a new GL: Simon Baz. They could have made him gay (he does represent a minority; he's muslim). They've also got an even newer GL coming down the line, and they could make her a lesbian. But retconning Alan, just...why? For what purpose? And to then not use him ever, making the change pointless? Ugh...

[/rant]

From what I understand, Robinson made Alan gay since the brief meant he had to be de-aged, which got rid of Alan's kids...and Robinson felt like he had to make up for the fact that that meant that Obsidian (who was gay) never existed.

Personally, I don't mind the change...but I'm not sure if it's one that has worked or not. Alan's introduction involved his boyfriend (Sam) dying and since then, Alan's sexuality hasn't come up at all.

You could certainly argue that that's a good change, that treating a homosexual relationship identical to a heterosexual one is the best way to handle things.

On the other hand, Sam could have been Samantha, and literally nothing about Alan's character would change. And-while Alan was pushed as E2's "Superman"- he hasn't gotten any focus in over a YEAR, and has more or less been written out of the book.

So...while I don't mind Alan being gay (in theory), I think the way it has been handled is...less than optimal. But that's a discution for a different thread, I think...

[Dunkum he/him]

I remember not really hating her as much before, she was always annoying but before the white tower she was just 'that annoying character' for me, I didn't feel as empathetic to her but I still enjoyed reading her scenes. Afterwards though it was just... Yeah. Annoying doesn't begin to describe it. I've never before or since felt like it about a character but she's the one character I actively hated. And her ending was just more of the same for me.

I'm also not a big fan of Hobb though all I've read is Farseer.

really?  i had the opposite reaction.  Egwene (and Nynaeve and Elayne, for that matter) annoyed me for pretty much the entire first 5 or 6 books.  basically, I thought that everything Egwene did after meeting the wise ones was a dramatic improvement over how she was at the beginning.  her arc in the white tower was her at her most competent, and I liked it better than, well honestly better than almost any other part of the series.

[Voidus]

really?  i had the opposite reaction.  Egwene (and Nynaeve and Elayne, for that matter) annoyed me for pretty much the entire first 5 or 6 books.  basically, I thought that everything Egwene did after meeting the wise ones was a dramatic improvement over how she was at the beginning.  her arc in the white tower was her at her most competent, and I liked it better than, well honestly better than almost any other part of the series.

After meeting the wise ones she very nearly dream-raped her mentor, Nynaeve, just to keep secret the fact that she was lying to the wise ones.

[Dunkum he/him]

After meeting the wise ones she very nearly dream-raped her mentor, Nynaeve, just to keep secret the fact that she was lying to the wise ones.

Nynaeve wasn't really in a mentor role at that point.  I'll grant some of her actions weren't great, that one included, but they mostly weren't stupid, which I can't really say about her prior to that point (Elayne and post book 1 Nynaeve are again just as bad).  moreover, they got progressively less stupid for the remainder of the series (again as opposed to Nynaeve and Elayne, the latter of whom simply assumed she couldn't die until she almost did).  my point is: for me Egwene's character was at her most annoying when she was falling into obvious traps and just generally ignoring the advice of smarter/wiser folks (ala literally everything Harry potter ever did, but I shouldn't get started on that series).  after her time with the wise ones, she at least starts to pay attention to what older and wiser heads might have to say.  she makes her own decisions, some of them wrong, but none of them so blatantly stupid as anything she does in the first few books.

[Voidus]

Nynaeve wasn't really in a mentor role at that point.  I'll grant some of her actions weren't great, that one included, but they mostly weren't stupid, which I can't really say about her prior to that point (Elayne and post book 1 Nynaeve are again just as bad).  moreover, they got progressively less stupid for the remainder of the series (again as opposed to Nynaeve and Elayne, the latter of whom simply assumed she couldn't die until she almost did).  my point is: for me Egwene's character was at her most annoying when she was falling into obvious traps and just generally ignoring the advice of smarter/wiser folks (ala literally everything Harry potter ever did, but I shouldn't get started on that series).  after her time with the wise ones, she at least starts to pay attention to what older and wiser heads might have to say.  she makes her own decisions, some of them wrong, but none of them so blatantly stupid as anything she does in the first few books.

Spoilers for later books follow:

It's the complete opposite for me, if anything she gets worse at listening to other people as the series goes on, at the start she fervently listens to and follows Nynaeve soon replacing her with Moiraine, after she gets annoyed at Moiraine paying more attention to the savior of the world than the almighty Egwene she replaces her for the wise ones, whom she frequently ignores, lies to, doesn't trust, ignores their warnings and otherwise does very little other than try to steal as much knowledge as she can as quickly as she can.

Then we get to Salidar where despite being surrounded by people far older, smarter and more familiar with tower politics than her she takes it upon herself to show that only she knows what's really best. She shows this by managing to avoid disaster multiple times by luck alone, subverting the authority of anyone who looks like they might actually be able to accomplish anything, stubbornly refusing any and all advice, getting herself captured, maintaining her belief that she's the rightful Amyrlin even when she accepts her role as a novice again, yet again subverting the authority of anyone who might wield power over her, she then nearly wages war on the tower with no provocation is miraculously accepted in time to spare her from the consequences of these actions, nearly repeated the same exact mistakes she criticized Elaida for, punishes and humiliates everyone who's so far helped her, nearly tries to capture Rand, ignores the advice of the person who created the seal because she knows better despite no knowledge or training that could prepare her for it, nearly destroys the entire world and is only saved from this mistake by someone she'd long since abandoned.

[Dunkum he/him]

we'll just have to disagree on this, I think

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I know i'm a little late but the below post is kind of making both internally and externally facepalm to the bottomless pit of Tartarus

 

I've never understood people's problem with this. Most male superheroes are super muscular and wear very tight-fitting, impractical clothing. This is to distinguish them from the common man. The male super hero wears clothing to better depict how strong he is. Male super heroes are the masculine ideal; physically fit to the point of perfection, tall, intelligent, etc and they wear uniforms that accentuate that.

The same thing goes for female super heroes. They are, physically at least, the feminine ideal: toned, lithe bodies, perfect proportions, large breasts - and they wear clothing to accentuate that fact.

People always complain about female super heroes, but I just can't understand the double standard. What's wrong with a female super hero that dresses proactively? That's what people want to see. And it isn't a male vs female issue at all, it's just the difference between super heroes and regular people.

I mean, how successful would Superman be if he was short, balding, had bad teeth and bifocals, had a flabby body with a big belly, and wore frumpy clothing? No one wants to see that, just like no one wants to see a Wonder Woman who's 70 lbs overweight, is chugging a XXL Starbucks Latte with like 1,300 calories from sugar alone, had a short, pixie cut, and wears loose fitting, mens clothing.

Which brings me to MY pet peeve in fantasy - Social Justice Warriors are ruining comics. Rather than creating their OWN superheroes, they complain and use incendiary language like "racist" or "transphobic" or "misogynist" until publishes cave to the pressures and change long established heroes. Thor is a woman now. Spiderman is Latino and gay. Captain America is black.

Why do these social minorities get to scream at the top of their lungs and get their way? If they want to see themselves represented somewhere, fine. Literally no one objects to that. But create your own unique stories rather than subverting the already popular ones.

 

You're seriously screaming MRA right now *narrows eyes to suspicious squinty gaze*

 

Alright, as a woman who likes comics, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

 

I like how Frosted Flakes originally said that women wanted to look like the sexy superheroines in spandex. And that male superheroes are catered to be our kind of fanservice, because they're also idealized.

 

...because I'll just come out and say that's garbage.

 

Girls don't want to look like sexy bimbos who break our spines to show off the boobs and butt position. There's a great tumblr called escher girls that showcases these kinds of ridiculous "sexy" poses that are actually just kinda straight up horrifying. IDK, maybe straight guys find that sort of thing attractive. But I find it unsettling, gross, and not more than a little demeaning. If you come in here and tell me that you think girls actually like those kinds of things, I'm going to laugh.

 

I just love how you complained about how Thor is a woman now. Because... go figure, that's exactly the kind of thing that I, as a female comics reader, like to see. The new Thor is the kind of superheroine that is a female power fantasy, in the same vein as superheroes throughout the years have been male power fantasies. A glorified bikini being passed off as armor isn't empowering. Well designed female characters in awesome armor? Now that's what I'd like to see. 

 

I mean... for real. My 17S member description lists that "well-designed female armor" is one of my faves.

 

In order to give you a good idea of what the difference between straight male desires in comic books and straight female desires are, let's imagine what the comics industry might look like if it had been catered to people like me for years and years rather than its traditional target demographic. What do I want to see when I open a comic?

 

Their costumes should be elegant, beautiful, and powerful. Warrior girls get armor that looks great and is functional and realistic. I want their armor to look so cool and also strike fear into the hearts of all their enemies. None of this hyper-sexualized nonsense. Not interested at all, thanks. I don't want to look sexy, I want to look AWESOME. Why would she need to look sexy? I don't want my heroines to be sexy, and who cares what straight dudes want, because we're catering this comics experience to me. Those armors are impractical. I'm not going to like a character who doesn't know how to properly cover up for a fight. That just tells me she's probably really dumb and deserves to get stabbed somewhere since she doesn't know how clothing works. Maybe if you've got an invulnerable character who can justify showing skin in a fight, make sure they look cool rather than sexualized.

 

So, give me costume designs like Lady Sif, Thor from the current comic run, America Chavez, Hawkeye, Aveline de Grandpré from Assassin's Creed: Liberation, Hawke from Dragon Age 2, The Inquisitor from Dragon Age Inquisition, Isa from Infinity Blade. 

 

Body types? I don't want huge-boobed, stick-thin-waist girls. Give me heroines who look like they can take a punch and send one back. Give me slender, elegant girls. Give me heroines with curves in all kinds of places. Tall, short, skinny, curvy. There's all kinds of beautiful female body types that I like. Like, we're being idealizing here, so let's make them all attractive, but there's all kinds of good ways to do that.

 

As for the guys, what kind of things am I looking for? Well, I'll be honest, tons of muscles doesn't appeal to me. I like my heroes lean. Give me tall and skinny guys over bulging muscles any day. I want charming smiles and pretty eyes. Costuming? Let's do formal wear whenever possible. Have you heard it said that a well-tailored suit is sexier than lingerie? It's true. Suits and military uniforms, that's the way to a girl's heart.

 

Give me guys that look like Daredevil from the Netflix series. I'll take MCU Loki in a heartbeat over MCU Thor, no offense to Mr. Hemsworth. Neal Caffrey from Suits. Bellamy Blake from The 100. Balem Abrasax from Jupiter Ascending.

 

 

Whew, if all comic books and video games looked like that, I have a feeling a large percentage of the female demographic would be rather pleased. I know I certainly would be. I could go on and on, talk about how I want more diverse female body types. How I want my fanservice (dude characters that I like getting beat up/tortured is a personal favorite). Because here's the thing, people talk about how SJWs are "ruining" comics or video games or whatever, but what they're really doing is opening it up to appeal to more demographics.

 

Traditional straight dude comic book readers/gamers are always going to be able to get their beefcake heroes and impractically sexy female trophy characters. Seriously, those aren't going to disappear off the face of the earth. Why does everybody have to throw a fit just because we're finally getting some characters who aren't like that for a change. Honestly, even if these new character types weren't being aimed at someone like me, I'd be grateful for them for variety's sake alone.

 

Haven't we beaten male-characters-as-male-power-fantasy and female-characters-as-male-sexual-fantasy archetypes to death yet? There's been enough. Let's change it up and try catering to somebody else for a change, huh?

 

Maybe you like those kinds of characters. Maybe you're upset that you're getting less characters like that because you enjoy reading about/playing as beefcakes and bimbos. But I certainly don't. I'm sick to death of it. And the fact of the matter is, straight dudes are no longer the only people in these "nerdy" hobbies. To be quite honest, straight male dudes were never the only demographics in these activities, but those of us who don't fit into those categories are finally speaking up loud enough that creators are listening.

 

That demographic has plenty of cookies on their fictional plate, catered exactly to their tastes. Let someone else get a cookie or two for a change, just the way we like them. Sound good? Good.

 

I would have said something (after realising I was several pages too late, cause i was really prickled at the comment) but thanks Feather for phrasing everything so much than I could in a far more reasonable way

Edited September 26, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[king of nowhere]

@  delightful: there are 7 billion people on the planet. half of them are women. Most of them are in an age category when they can potentially desire to be bimbos. If only one in one hundred wants to, it's still 20 million girls. I suppuse you don't know any of them. I also don't know any, and neither I know men who think with their nether regions. That doesn't mean those people do not exist at all. As an example, some 70-80 years ago it was fashionable to have even narrower hips than right now, and several women had the last rib surgically removed to have narrower hips. I'm pretty sure some of the most extreme things done nowadays with surgery also qualify.

 

Furthermore, even if I absolutely don't like those people, they aren't actually hurting anyone - except maybe themselves, but that's their choice to make. So the ideals of tolerance to which I try to comply say that I have to accept their choice and not discriminate them for it. Even if part of me would want to.

 

@ egwene argument:

One big thing missing in that debate is the context in which those characters act. Yes, egwene is an arrogant woman who thinks she knows better than anyone else, even when she actually has no idea what's actually going on, and refuses to listen to other's reasons.

Yet she is no different from, virtually, any other woman with power in the saga. Or men, for that matter. The only exceptions I can think of are elayne and perrin, who are the only people with power with whom you could actually have a discussion. Although elayne is likely to then follow her own hotheadedness in a moment' decision, and perrin will start charging like a bull at a red drape at the slightest possibility his wife may be in danger. How many times in the whole 14 books two main characters with conflicting ideas sit down to talk and manage to find a good compromise, or one persuades the other peacefully? Just one: when perrin and elayne settled up the legal status the two rivers.

anyway, egwene bullied or tried to bully everyone she ever met, except the wise ones. those, she tried to swindle. but those parties are hardly innocent. rand kept going his own way despite the advice of moiraine, but at least he was guided by prophecy and his ta'veren feelings. the wise ones hid informations from rand and from their other allies as much as possible, and the only thing preventing them to scheme for power is that sorilea was in charge and that was it. nynaeve tried to order everybody, ooften threatening people to force-feed them disgusting brews for what basically is disagreeing with them - I see what egwene did to her as no different than tw street thugs beating each other, and one getting the upper hand. You may notice how many secrets nynaeve, elayne and egwene kept from each others, despite beign supposedly close friends.

As for the salidar aes sedai, if  egwene hadn't taken control, they'd have spent the last battle stuck in their abandoned town still trying to decide whether romanda or lelaine was to be in charge. They may have been "far older, smarter and more familiar with tower politics than her", but I haven't seen any of it. Each one of them only cared for being in charge, not for the tower or anything. The tower aes sedai  were no better; one mentions at some point that elaida would be deposed "save for a miracle, like the rebels appearing at the gates of tar valon" (which actually happens). Still, there's nothing to make us think it would have been the case. The hall of the tower was too divided to actually depose elaida, all the ajahs were reduced to voting against each other just for spite, and the ajah heads trying (for a change) to take charge. heck, if they didn't depose elaida after causing a rebellion, trying to kidnap the dragon, sending 51 sisters in captivity, and pitting the ajahs against each other, while the rebels had raised a big army (usefulfor the last battle) and rediscovered a lot of stuff, then they would have never done it. the handful of blacks among the sitters would have seen to it, at the least.

Lo, egwene would have wanted to set all the aes sedai doing penances, and she would have been darn right to do so!

 

Then she almost caused a war between the tower and rand. basically, because she wanted to take charge. that was the dumber thing she ever did in all the saga, made even dumber by how competent she had become previously. I like to think that, had he lived, rober jordan would have changed that part. or maybe not. she is, after all, just another woman wanting to take charge. just one who is more headstrong of the others. And one who cared a bit about doing the right thing, and not just about ruling, which made her more fit for the job than virtually anybody else.

P.S. It's a pity she never confronted cadsuane. I would have liked to see that.

[Voidus]

@  delightful: there are 7 billion people on the planet. half of them are women. Most of them are in an age category when they can potentially desire to be bimbos. If only one in one hundred wants to, it's still 20 million girls. I suppuse you don't know any of them. I also don't know any, and neither I know men who think with their nether regions. That doesn't mean those people do not exist at all. As an example, some 70-80 years ago it was fashionable to have even narrower hips than right now, and several women had the last rib surgically removed to have narrower hips. I'm pretty sure some of the most extreme things done nowadays with surgery also qualify.

 

Furthermore, even if I absolutely don't like those people, they aren't actually hurting anyone - except maybe themselves, but that's their choice to make. So the ideals of tolerance to which I try to comply say that I have to accept their choice and not discriminate them for it. Even if part of me would want to.

 

@ egwene argument:

One big thing missing in that debate is the context in which those characters act. Yes, egwene is an arrogant woman who thinks she knows better than anyone else, even when she actually has no idea what's actually going on, and refuses to listen to other's reasons.

Yet she is no different from, virtually, any other woman with power in the saga. Or men, for that matter. The only exceptions I can think of are elayne and perrin, who are the only people with power with whom you could actually have a discussion. Although elayne is likely to then follow her own hotheadedness in a moment' decision, and perrin will start charging like a bull at a red drape at the slightest possibility his wife may be in danger. How many times in the whole 14 books two main characters with conflicting ideas sit down to talk and manage to find a good compromise, or one persuades the other peacefully? Just one: when perrin and elayne settled up the legal status the two rivers.

anyway, egwene bullied or tried to bully everyone she ever met, except the wise ones. those, she tried to swindle. but those parties are hardly innocent. rand kept going his own way despite the advice of moiraine, but at least he was guided by prophecy and his ta'veren feelings. the wise ones hid informations from rand and from their other allies as much as possible, and the only thing preventing them to scheme for power is that sorilea was in charge and that was it. nynaeve tried to order everybody, ooften threatening people to force-feed them disgusting brews for what basically is disagreeing with them - I see what egwene did to her as no different than tw street thugs beating each other, and one getting the upper hand. You may notice how many secrets nynaeve, elayne and egwene kept from each others, despite beign supposedly close friends.

As for the salidar aes sedai, if  egwene hadn't taken control, they'd have spent the last battle stuck in their abandoned town still trying to decide whether romanda or lelaine was to be in charge. They may have been "far older, smarter and more familiar with tower politics than her", but I haven't seen any of it. Each one of them only cared for being in charge, not for the tower or anything. The tower aes sedai  were no better; one mentions at some point that elaida would be deposed "save for a miracle, like the rebels appearing at the gates of tar valon" (which actually happens). Still, there's nothing to make us think it would have been the case. The hall of the tower was too divided to actually depose elaida, all the ajahs were reduced to voting against each other just for spite, and the ajah heads trying (for a change) to take charge. heck, if they didn't depose elaida after causing a rebellion, trying to kidnap the dragon, sending 51 sisters in captivity, and pitting the ajahs against each other, while the rebels had raised a big army (usefulfor the last battle) and rediscovered a lot of stuff, then they would have never done it. the handful of blacks among the sitters would have seen to it, at the least.

Lo, egwene would have wanted to set all the aes sedai doing penances, and she would have been darn right to do so!

 

Then she almost caused a war between the tower and rand. basically, because she wanted to take charge. that was the dumber thing she ever did in all the saga, made even dumber by how competent she had become previously. I like to think that, had he lived, rober jordan would have changed that part. or maybe not. she is, after all, just another woman wanting to take charge. just one who is more headstrong of the others. And one who cared a bit about doing the right thing, and not just about ruling, which made her more fit for the job than virtually anybody else.

P.S. It's a pity she never confronted cadsuane. I would have liked to see that.

Might want to spoiler all that, it's been ages since the series was finished but better safe than sorry.

I guess it's just a difference of opinion, I disagree on almost everything you said personally but I suppose different people read her in different ways. But for me she will always remain a lucky yet spoiled and unjustifiably arrogant girl who was far too incompetent for the power she kept trying to seize.

[maxal she/her]

I have to agree with king of nowhere: there are women who identify themselves with the bimbo image. Nobody on this thread can presume to talk for all women and whereas most of us hate the current imagery does not mean others like it. The minority of people who are active on the Internet do not represent a valid sample of the large scale population. Minorities are over-represented on the Internet, on average, which makes it most opinion found on it is bound to contradict that of the main population. That is true no matter the subject, no matter the forum. For instance, most mothers do work, but if you spend time on parental forum, you quickly notice most mothers who hang in there are stay-at-home. The proportion of stay-at-home and working mothers on forum is not the same as in the real world and it is tipping on the wrong side of the scale.

 

The problem is the current imagery is basically all that is suggested to young women nowadays.