idle questions

[asterisk]

A few idle observations on the top of my head.

The Shin naming style.What is it exactly? Do the sons take the name of the father and the daughters the name of the mother? Can you add the name ofthe grandfather ? Or is it something else entirely? In one chapter there is mention of Szeth as Szeth son neturo, in another it is as szeth son son vallano.

In the dalinar and wit chapter he mentions a dysian aimian whereas i definitely remember the spren guy to be another type. How many types of aimian are there? And do they bear different curses and have different powers?

Also one of the epigraphs has a mention of a prophecy, "he has to pick up the tower crown and the spear". Could it be referring to kaladin?

Kalak in the prologue,he goes back to"that place" whether he dies or survives. How does he go back without dying? Shadesmar travel?

And finally the szeth prologue chapter, a man asks szeth" have you seen me?" . immediately after szeth notices one of the statue is missing. Draw your conclusions.:-)

[Meg]

A few idle observations on the top of my head.

The Shin naming style.What is it exactly? Do the sons take the name of the father and the daughters the name of the mother? Can you add the name ofthe grandfather ? Or is it something else entirely? In one chapter there is mention of Szeth as Szeth son neturo, in another it is as szeth son son vallano.

 

 

It seems that the naming of the Shin people follows down the mother- and the father-line if one is female or male. 

Szeth-son-son-Vallano means that Vallano is/was the grandfather of Szeth. 

Szeth-son-Neturo means that Neturo is Szeth's father. 

 

 

“Do not call me by my father’s name,” Szeth said. “He should not be sullied by association with me.”

(TWoK I-6)

 

Szeth goes with his grandfather's name because he wants his father not associated with him and his faults. 

 

 

In the dalinar and wit chapter he mentions a dysian aimian whereas i definitely remember the spren guy to be another type. How many types of aimian are there? And do they bear different curses and have different powers?

 

There are two kinds of Aimians: Dysian Aimians (the ones, Wit mentions in Ch. 54) and Siah Aimians, such as Axies (I-5). 

 

 

 

 

Q. 2) Are there non-human races on Roshar, or non-humanoid races that are sentient?

 

A. The Parshendi are not human, but you probably already knew that. The two races of Aimaians are not human either. There are many races of sentient spren. From there, it depends if you call something like Ryshadium sentient or not.

source

 

 

 

And finally the szeth prologue chapter, a man asks szeth" have you seen me?" . immediately after szeth notices one of the statue is missing. Draw your conclusions.:-)

 

 

Hmmm, the missing statue is of a female Herald, but the person asking Szeth is male? ...

[Senor Feesh]

1) Shin naming does indeed seem to follow <<name>> son <<father's name>> or <<name>> daughter <<mother's name>> for the most part. I think Szeth is known as Szeth son son Vallano because of his shame; he has either given up or been forced not to use his father's name to spare his immediate family form association with him.

 

2) We don't really know much about Aimians yet, I believe we will as the series continues.

 

3) Crown/Tower/Spear - we don't really know yet (cursed prophecies are always vague, except in the case of Agnes Nutter) but it's possibly simply a reference to the battle at the Tower, with Adolin (Spearfighter) saving Dalinar (the Kholin glyph is oft represented as a Crown - or it is a Crown and Tower paired? I forget)

 

4) This is something we know far too little about for me to feel comfortable speculating on - we don't even know where 'that place' is, let alone how they get there. Is it even in the Physical Realm?

 

5) It's commonly believed this man is one of the Heralds, though opinion differs as to which one.

 

Disclaimer: I may be wrong on any and all of the above points

[ADIMORTIS he/him]

The quote is "He must pick it up,the fallen title. The tower, The crown ,the spear"

The fallen title would refer to the KR and that kaladin and dalinar will have to restore it .

The tower and the crown is the sigil for kholin and the spear eould refer to kaladin .the symbols are given on the archways of the title heading.

Edited May 10, 2013 by ADIMORTIS

[sonNeturo he/him]

I agree with Senor and thought I'd ask a question of my own

 

In Dalinar's visions when asking if he should trust Sadeus (and I'm sure a few other times, haven't reread TWoK in a while) Honour says that it is important. Whilst we know the visions are a journal did Honour definitely know what the person seeing the visions said at those points would be important? (as it led to Kaladin saving Dalinar and joining his warcamp and Kaladin progressing as a Knights Radient).

[Senor Feesh]

I agree with Senor and thought I'd ask a question of my own

 

In Dalinar's visions when asking if he should trust Sadeus (and I'm sure a few other times, haven't reread TWoK in a while) Honour says that it is important. Whilst we know the visions are a journal did Honour definitely know what the person seeing the visions said at those points would be important? (as it led to Kaladin saving Dalinar and joining his warcamp and Kaladin progressing as a Knights Radient).

 

No, each time Honor seemed to be responding to Dalinar can on a re-read be seen as simply reciting a pre-determined speech. It's actually really strange on the second go-around and being in the know, watching Dalinar 'interact' with Honor.

[Windrunner he/him]

Perhaps the "fallen title," is the Highprince of War?

[sonNeturo he/him]

Yes but because of a Shards foresight wouldn't Honour have been able to do an educated guess, (sort of) that what the person taking part in the visions said was important to the ultimate goal of the visions which as far as I know, is to restore the Radiants. As without Dalinar trusting Sadeus, Kaladin wouldn't have said the second ideal (so early) and Dalinar wouldn't have given up his blade, which Syl hates so he may form a nahel bond in book 2 making it 'important'. 

 

 

 

(in respone to #6)

Edited May 10, 2013 by sonNeturo

[sonNeturo he/him]

Perhaps the "fallen title," is the Highprince of War?

Fair point, the tower and crown referring to house Kholin and the spear referring to war. 

[asterisk]

Again another question from the prologue itself . The nine heralds decide to leave their swords in stone and just walk away. Whats stopping them to come back and fight after taking a long fight. Or is the Oathpact specifies them to seriously show up at the desolations only and then disappaer?

Also the prologue is the 99th desolation and the true desolation , the 100th one is arriving now.its sure that the heralds did not know of this, or otherwise they might have decided to go for a final push.

As for titular know it all, Dr Whoid (i could not find a single doctor pun, seriously was expecting it! ) his letter is the most troubling one.

In all the mistborn books the epigraphs where from either rasheks journal, otr the prophecies or sazed. And in this case, a letter and few death viewings. Now there are three possibilities-

1. The epigraphs and the letter are all collected by a single person or team. As they have hoids letter it can be the 17th shard , hoid himself or some one else. Also they have jasnah notes, she maybe their ally ,or they stole or copied the notes. They also broke into taravignan (i probably spelled it wrong) palace too.

2. As the story progresses we will see how jasnah , the tara-i am going to call him eom now(evil old now) eom , soneone else , geraid work together, and it is their collection we are reading.

3. An unkown mythical guardian, the Radiant Keeper of the Stormlight Archive has collected it as a means if preserving it. maybe , that the winner against odium published the book at the end of the book

4. They are just epigraphs. Nothing to see here.

And why is the series named stormlight archive anyway, huh?

This is the only book where i see no connection whatsoever.

Coming back to hoid what irks me the most is that we have idea whether the letter actually reached its reciepient and if it did, how? Does he write with some sort of attuned spanreeds that can travel all the void to Patience? Or what do you think?(i named the shardholder patience. Blame robin hobb)

Seriously, what are the theories on the letter delivery?i couldn't find any so i posted it here.

And finally can someone please show where i can i find a summarization of the liar of partinel to see how the first became the second doctor?(thats what happens, right?)

[hoser he/him]

In Dalinar's visions when asking if he should trust Sadeus (and I'm sure a few other times, haven't reread TWoK in a while) Honour says that it is important. Whilst we know the visions are a journal did Honour definitely know what the person seeing the visions said at those points would be important? (as it led to Kaladin saving Dalinar and joining his warcamp and Kaladin progressing as a Knights Radient).

 

 

No, each time Honor seemed to be responding to Dalinar can on a re-read be seen as simply reciting a pre-determined speech. It's actually really strange on the second go-around and being in the know, watching Dalinar 'interact' with Honor.

 

I am not certain.  The journal is interactive.  The Knights Radiant and Nohadon respond to Dalinar's questions.  The Midnight essence die as a result of Dalinar's actions.  There must be an "intelligence" guiding  those visions in order for them to be effectively interactive.  Is that a preset speech about "act with honor and honor will aid you" or a response to Dalinar's question?  I doubt that Tanavast could have foreseen Dalinar's situation, but maybe he knew that the Shard remnants such as Kaladin and Syl would be around and "programmed" the visions to be responsive to that question too. 

 

The result, full of tragic death though it was, catalyzed several situations, hopefully toward a better situation. The response, if response it was, was completely in line with the Shard intent.

 

And why is the series named stormlight archive anyway, huh?

This is the only book where i see no connection whatsoever.

Stormlight is fundamental to all the magic of Roshar.  In a way the whole saga will be a history of the use of stormlight.  Would "The Sprenlight Dialogues" be a better title for the series?

Edited May 12, 2013 by hoser

[Morsk he/him]

And why is the series named stormlight archive anyway, huh?

I don't think we know. For the longest time, the series was going to be called the Way of Kings. I thought it was a bad name for a fantasy series, since it doesn't suggest anything fantasy or even action-oriented. (It could be 10,000 pages of old men whining to their sons about leadership...) It was a terrible fit for a world as exotic as Roshar, so I'm glad the series was renamed to something that sounds exotic.

And finally can someone please show where i can i find a summarization of the liar of partinel to see how the first became the second doctor?(thats what happens, right?)

There's a thread with links to downloads of chapters, etc. It's huge so search for "liar".

And that's just a theory I posted. Some people found it interesting or appreciated the attempt to make some sense out of Hoid's mysterious quotes, but I wouldn't say it's generally accepted or anything like that. (Dr. Who wasn't an inspiration for it, btw. I have nothing against the show but I don't watch television so I don't know a lot about it.)

[Phantom Monstrosity]

No, each time Honor seemed to be responding to Dalinar can on a re-read be seen as simply reciting a pre-determined speech. It's actually really strange on the second go-around and being in the know, watching Dalinar 'interact' with Honor.

On reread, there is definitely interactive stuff. Problem being, Dalinar is interpreting general advice triggerd by questions as specific insight into his exact situation.

[Windrunner he/him]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of the revelation at the end of TWoK is that Honor can't hear Dalinar. When I went back and read the things Honor had said to Dalinar, I couldn't find any point where Honor was definitely interacting with Dalinar, everything I saw could stand on its own as a speech.

 

And, as Dalinar says.

“At least tell me this,” Dalinar said. “What time are we seeing? Is this the past, the future, or something else entirely?”

The figure didn’t answer immediately. Then he said, “You’re probably wondering if this is a vision of the future.”

Dalinar started. “I just . . . I just asked . . .”

This was familiar. Too familiar.

He said that exact thing last time, Dalinar realized, feeling a chill. This all happened. I’m seeing the same vision again.

The figure squinted at the horizon. “I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future . . . I can only guess.”

“You can’t hear me, can you?” Dalinar asked, feeling a horror as he finally began to understand. “You never could.”

Blood of my fathers . . . he’s not ignoring me. He can’t see me! He doesn’t speak in riddles. It just seems that way because I took his responses as cryptic answers to my questions.

He didn’t tell me to trust Sadeas. I . . . I just assumed . . .

Honor is dead. He's not talking to anyone.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The thing is, they don't really make sense as a cohesive whole

I miss these times, they were one, once, the orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused. I wish I could help you. You have to unite them. To speak of what might be is forbidden. To speak of what was depends on perspective. But I will try to help. Yes, this is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you. I will give you what I can. I am sorry for not giving more.

The 'Yes, this is important' bit is a real cheat if there isn't some extremely basic triggering.

[Windrunner he/him]

I read it almost as Honor musing to himself, sort of a stream of consciousness thing. He's pondering what he can do, figuring out what he wants to say.

[hoser he/him]

At the risk of betraying my iconoclastic tendencies, it seems to me to be an inconsistency that the non-Tanavast figures in these visions can interact with the things Dalinar says and does, but the Tanavast avatars can't.  Not impossible, and there might be some more involved explanation. 

 

Alternatively, the Tanavast avatars can interact, but maybe they don't always.  Honor is dead, and he could have programmed the projections in his visions with the knowledge that he had, but they would know nothing of Sadeas and the events of Sadeas' time.  In this construction, Dalinar's conclusion that he wasn't heard may not be correct. 

[Senor Feesh]

I read it almost as Honor musing to himself, sort of a stream of consciousness thing. He's pondering what he can do, figuring out what he wants to say.

I agree, this is exactly how I read it. The yes isn't a response, he's reaffirming to himself what he's saying.

[Lightflame he/him]

Maybe he swaps bodies with people from the past? And "screaming Dalinar" from the present is actually yelling, "Where the hell am I? Get me out of this damned chair!"

[Kurkistan he/him]

^Sadly, I don't think there's any Quantum Leap action going on, what with that whole Dawnchant thing at the end.

 

As for how the "NPC's" in Dalinar's visions are more interactive than Honor, I have a few thoughts.

 

This is just me spitballing, but it may (possibly) be the case that Honor is pulling some relatively necromantic shenanigans in the visions. He could, theoretically, have copied the souls and environments of certain people at certain times and bundled them all into his journal. His speaking out of their mouths, then, is a case of aborting the simulation and spitting out a canned message. As for why he couldn't have been more interactive as himself in the first/last vision, maybe there's some restriction on him accessing/copying his own soul, or some such.

 

Once again, this is all just wild speculation that I came up with while composing this response.

 

@hoser

Yes, it's technically possible that Tanavast's avatars interact occasionally, but I find it highly unlikely from a purely "bookly" perspective. "God is dead and I've thought he was talking to me this whole time" is a very big, very important--downright thematic, even--revelation that caps off an entire book's worth of doubts. I don't think we're going to get much equivocation on that, especially because we just got confident!Dalinar back, and we don't want to see him being fundamentally wrong again about what his visions are.

[asterisk]

I think that what honour has cut certain portions of history where all the outcomes are certain and unchangeable, then he takes dalinar to this specific memory simulation. It seems that only the spiritual aspect is taken for a ride. Perhaps the storms are the key for this transfer to take place. Dalinar is spiriutally divided into two but the connection is maintained so he thrashes in the real world.

Remember the nohadon vision, dalinar sees himself just fine but to nohadon he is karm and missing one arm.

The visions are - future, midnight essences, kr giving up, and nohadon . None of them are exactly changeable. For example dalinar messes up the nohadon memory, but nohadon fate during the vision is unchanged.

A question about shardblades. One of the awesome topics here is the explanation of the physical, spiritual and cognitive realms and how they affect each other. The shardblades are stored in the spiritual realm and can be summoned by the shardbearers themselves.

Now imagine that at the beginning, would honour and/or herald created the shards not as weapons but tailor made for the kr. He changed the sDna which allowed them to summon the shardblades into the physical realm by manipulation of physical realm via cognitive .realm.

They could now summon a part of their souls into battle, a pointy , unchanging part. If they summoned it , and lost concentration the sword would vanish, as it requires focus to maintain a part of you soul.

Basically they learrned how to summon shardblades. The thrill was also probably built into it, as a means of improving battle senses. When the kr walked away, lthey intentionally cut the blades off, ordinary men could bond with them, but could not probably access all the the benefits that akr wielding it could get.

In support of my theory-

1. We have to see how people bond with the swords.

2. Everyones sword has names . Sunraiser, oathbringer etc.

3. The blades were corrupted when ordinary men picked it without earning it.

[hoser he/him]

^Sadly, I don't think there's any Quantum Leap action going on, what with that whole Dawnchant thing at the end.

 

As for how the "NPC's" in Dalinar's visions are more interactive than Honor, I have a few thoughts.

 

This is just me spitballing, but it may (possibly) be the case that Honor is pulling some relatively necromantic shenanigans in the visions. He could, theoretically, have copied the souls and environments of certain people at certain times and bundled them all into his journal. His speaking out of their mouths, then, is a case of aborting the simulation and spitting out a canned message. As for why he couldn't have been more interactive as himself in the first/last vision, maybe there's some restriction on him accessing/copying his own soul, or some such.

 

Once again, this is all just wild speculation that I came up with while composing this response.

 

@hoser

Yes, it's technically possible that Tanavast's avatars interact occasionally, but I find it highly unlikely from a purely "bookly" perspective. "God is dead and I've thought he was talking to me this whole time" is a very big, very important--downright thematic, even--revelation that caps off an entire book's worth of doubts. I don't think we're going to get much equivocation on that, especially because we just got confident!Dalinar back, and we don't want to see him being fundamentally wrong again about what his visions are.

I know nothing. 

Playing angel's lawyer (angel's devil?), I could say that the NPCs in the visions are being lightwoven (a la Liar of Partinel) and lightwoven figures can act somewhat independently. 

Playing Devil's advocate, I can't see any significant difference in the interactive capability of the non-avatar projections and the avatars, particularly when Honor even uses an NPC as his avatar in the Recreance vision. 

I feel confident that Dalinar will be fundamentally wrong many times in the future (assuming he survives until book 4 or so) and this conclusion does not change the plan he needs to confidently implement.  Furthermore, whether the Honor projection is reponding to Dalinar, playing preset speeches or capable of being more responsive while choosing not to doesn't really matter because Dalinar has drawn his conclusion.

Edited May 13, 2013 by hoser

[Isomere]

Could these visions be sort of like a practice module for Radiants? There are lots of hints that acting Honorably increases your bond to both your Spren and your KR powers. But the chance to risk injury or death to keep a stranger safe doesn't happen everyday. By creating a simulation where Dalinar "feels" like it is real, his moral actions can Attune his Identity to Honor. He also gains knowlege and insight so he can make wiser choices throughout his life.

Mistborn

this may act similar to the Mists on Scadrial, but instead of "snapping", it is a gradual process of personal growth and moral transformation.

[sonNeturo he/him]

I don't think they're a practice module as the KR tells Heb (Dalinar) to come to Urithiru (spelling?) to get his training. But they may be a way for the person in the visions to keep on seeing them by acting honourably? so they can continue to learn about the KR from Honour