Elantrian Constellations

[Senor Feesh]

So I'm (almost) done on my Elantris re-read and I've noticed one or two things (which I'll probably add in later because I don't remember right away) but still:

 

Aons and constellations. There's at least one incidence of people looking at the constellations, which themselves form Aons. Does anyone know if this is a case of people just arbitrarily defining star-groups (as we do on Earth) or if the constellations are clearly and un-arguable aons? If the latter, then why? After all, AonDor is specific to Arelon, and other magic-systems use their local region as a base symbol. Perhaps there are other constellations relating to MaiPon and Fjorden? It's unlikely that they would only be viewable from their respective regions, but perhaps people in those countries never made the connection?

 

I know there's more I wanted to discuss, but I'll have to go over my Kindle clippings to refresh my memory.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

This reminds of that thread about Taln's Scar over in the Stormlight forum.  I highly doubt anything magical is going on here or there, I think it is just the case of people just arbitrarily defining star-groups.  I don't see why the Shards would fiddle around with stars hundreds light-years away to form just the right pattern on one single planet.

[Isomere]

Overall I don't think the constellations had meaning until the local people looked up and realized, "hey, that looks like Aon Eshe."  After that I could see it getting mixed up into the cultural identity bit happening on Sel and actually having some relevance. 

[Aethling he/him]

What looks like an Aon to one might look like a dragon to another in another part of the world.  Even for the same culture the form can change.  Just think about the big dipper.  In the past it represented a bear.  People see what they want or expect to see.

[ROSHtafARian]

True, but this is the cosmere, where what people expect to see actually does have power, or at least an effect.  Totally random, baseless conjecture here, not because I actually believe it but just because its fun to speculate wildly at times:  

 

What if say, a large enough population's shared perception of constellations as aons could lead sufficiently advanced Elantrians to form an expontentially magnified version of the aon that powers Elantris?  Worldhopping via Shadesmar is dangerous on Sel, so inevitably Elantrians at least will explore other avenues to get off their planet as their society, magic and technology advance.  What if constellations as aons leads to interstellar travel just as cadmium/bendalloy alloys lead to FTL technology for Scadrial?  Could also allow Galladon to use aons on Roshar.  Instead of Elantrians being limited by their distance from Elantris, they'd now be limited by how the constellations were perceived wherever they were, or having to be in the right time/place for them to perceive the right constellation in just the right way....

 

I dunno.  Like I said, I'm not actually theorizing that so much as wildly speculating along those lines.  Could be fun though, and I could see it making a certain realmatic kind of sense with the right spin....

Edited May 25, 2013 by ROSHtafARian

[Nepene he/him]

In the Cosmere from what we've seen people's beliefs have an impact on ideas and religions (several cross over from world to world) transformation and healing magic, and time magic. I doubt it's strong enough to have any noticeable impact on the stars.

 

The limitations will likely remain. Sanderson is all about the limitations.

[ROSHtafARian]

In the Cosmere from what we've seen people's beliefs have an impact on ideas and religions (several cross over from world to world) transformation and healing magic, and time magic. I doubt it's strong enough to have any noticeable impact on the stars.

 

The limitations will likely remain. Sanderson is all about the limitations.

 

True, but I'd just like to clarify that I was not positing Elantrians or their magic would ever have an influence over the stars themselves.  Rather, that with sufficient knowledge, or as their understanding of the wider nature of the universe and their relationship deepens, perhaps Elantrians could come to use constellations and star patterns as the basis for their Aons instead of the shape of Arelon.

 

For instance, to make a real world parallel, Elantris takes place during a slightly past medieval-Earth technological stage.  Around that time on Earth, most cultures were convinced that the Earth was flat, it was the center of the universe, and most people had a perception of their own nation as the center of the world itself.  Their understanding of the universe had a limited scope, which shaped their perceptions and interaction with the rest of the world.  My point is, it seems Elantrians at the times we've seen thus far have a similarly limited scope to their understanding of the universe....and this seems to shape their magic as well as their perceptions.  

 

Brandon's said numerous times that by the time most later stories occur in the cosmere, people on Sel have the most advanced understanding of the cosmere relative to people of other worlds.  My random, 'not even quite a theory' idea here is that as the people of Sel's awareness of the universe beyond their world grows, this mass shift in the perception of its populations as to their place in the universe could lead to a shift in their magic.  Its one thing to use symbols of your land to manipulate the Dor when you collectively believe your land is the center of creation and/or the most important shape in creation.  But when you're aware that your land is just one little nation on one little world in a universe with billions of stars, suddenly that shape might no longer have the cognitive significance or power that it once did.  And indeed, perhaps the shapes of star patterns or your relative position in the universe on that scale might come to take its place as the key to accessing the Dor.

 

I'm not calling this a theory because I think we have far too little information at this stage to even speculate that this is really a direction Brandon is going with Elantrian magic, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did develop along similar lines given what we do know at this point.

[Senor Feesh]

Ooh... Aons based on Sel instead of Arelon maybe? Or rather, Sel's location relative to the other Shardworlds? Still keeps the limiting factor to a degree, but allows for AonDor to function at much greater distances from Elantris.

Or maybe they just build an even bigger amplifier

[Oudeis he/him]

My random, 'not even quite a theory' idea here is that as the people of Sel's awareness of the universe beyond their world grows, this mass shift in the perception of its populations as to their place in the universe could lead to a shift in their magic.

 

Eh.... I realize every Investiture system is different, but they all have a certian basis. Almost every other system functions on the rather scientific basis of "this does what it does, regardless of how you feel it should happen." Obviously, this could be the big change, and maybe AonDor really is unique from all other systems in this way. I just get the impression that Mr. Sanderson's attitude is not going to lend itself to a system of magic changing just because the practitioners think it should. It would be like saying that on Earth, gold isn't magnetically reactive only because people think it's special in some way, and that once we changed to paper currency and gold became just another metal, magnets should start affecting it.

 

I've seen almost every other form of magic in other fantasy books work the way you're suggesting, and the impression I get from Mr. Sanderson is that he's trying to break out of those crutches that other writers use, where they write themselves into a corner and so have magic just change to adapt to new circumstances.

[Shardbearer he/him]

This is an interesting thread, so I'll go ahead and put my two cents in:

 

 

Eh.... I realize every Investiture system is different, but they all have a certian basis. Almost every other system functions on the rather scientific basis of "this does what it does, regardless of how you feel it should happen." Obviously, this could be the big change, and maybe AonDor really is unique from all other systems in this way. I just get the impression that Mr. Sanderson's attitude is not going to lend itself to a system of magic changing just because the practitioners think it should. It would be like saying that on Earth, gold isn't magnetically reactive only because people think it's special in some way, and that once we changed to paper currency and gold became just another metal, magnets should start affecting it.

 

I've seen almost every other form of magic in other fantasy books work the way you're suggesting, and the impression I get from Mr. Sanderson is that he's trying to break out of those crutches that other writers use, where they write themselves into a corner and so have magic just change to adapt to new circumstances.

 

I don't think that  ROSHtafARian suggest is about the magic changing because people think the magic should change. The way someone accesses the Dor on Sel is tied to their cognitive view of their regional identity.

 

If society advances to the point where they see themselves as members of the planet Sel rather than members of various nations, then the way the access the Dor will have to change too.

 

We also see that each region/nation has a different application for the Dor. Forging transforms things. AonDor has a lot of applications and resembles our own concept of wizardry (or some versions of it). ChayShan is some kind of battle dance magic. We can assume that if regional identy shifted toward a planetary identity that the applications could be drastically differet than anything we've seen on Sel yet.

[Oudeis he/him]

Not sure I agree. The current people who call Arelon home were transplanted there, found the city already built, moved in and started becoming Elantrians years later.

 

(source)

 

I guess I was unclear before; I don't mean people start expressly deciding "I want magic to do this thing" and it does it, but I don't think anything as mutable as "national identity" can affect magic. The symbol Rao was drawn in a city long before anyone turned into an Elantrian, and the magic still seems to work the same way centuries later. I realize it's not hard-and-fast WoB but it seems to strongly indicate that magic is tied to the land itself, not the people of the land. It's a natural thing, like a weather pattern. If Florida were emptied of people, and the population of Alberta moved there, it wouldn't suddenly start being cold down there just because the populace expected it to.

 

I understand the idea of AonDor being tied to a population, not a physical place, I just don't agree with it. I think all the evidence points to it being tied to the land itself, not the creatures that walk upon it.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Hmm, yes I see what you are saying, but remember that the Dor comes from a combination of Dominion and Devotion. Arelon probably has more Devotion in the mix and Fjordell more Dominion (compared to other lands), but my sense is that Dor isn't tied to the land itself, but to the dominion (government) that controls that land. I'm not sure how long a few decades is in the Coppermind article, but I'm going to assume that Elashe was born after the government was already established, and that her cognitive self identity was tied into being a citizen of that government, and that she was suitably devoted to the goverment to be taken by the shaod.

 

If, in the future, the entire planet was under the rule of a single dominion, I could definitely see this as having a huge impact on how the Dor is accessed and used by its citizens. At least once the goverment is established long enough to wipe out any other cognitive national identities.

 

I'm not saying I think this will happen, but that it's theoretically possible.

[Shardlet he/him]

I'm not sure how much cognitive nationalities play into it.  My chief example being Galladon, who by all indications so far, is very strongly Dula.  While I expect that he spent a considerable amount of time in Arelon because his father was an Elantrian, his cultural identity seems very firmly Dula.

[Pechvarry]

@Darnam, while I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions, something feels wrong about how you're describing this.  I think you are treating Elantris as part of the magic system, when it could possibly be considered a product of said magic system.

 

One could make the argument that a new Elantris could be made, in the shape of an entire planet (and perhaps the size of it), and new Aons developed, to simply access a "higher level" of geography.  

[Shardbearer he/him]

I'm not sure how much cognitive nationalities play into it.  My chief example being Galladon, who by all indications so far, is very strongly Dula.  While I expect that he spent a considerable amount of time in Arelon because his father was an Elantrian, his cultural identity seems very firmly Dula.

 

That's true. There is also a quote in TES that makes me think that anyone can learn Forging regardless of nationality.

[Oudeis he/him]

Hmm, yes I see what you are saying, but remember that the Dor comes from a combination of Dominion and Devotion. Arelon probably has more Devotion in the mix and Fjordell more Dominion (compared to other lands), but my sense is that Dor isn't tied to the land itself, but to the dominion (government) that controls that land. I'm not sure how long a few decades is in the Coppermind article, but I'm going to assume that Elashe was born after the government was already established, and that her cognitive self identity was tied into being a citizen of that government, and that she was suitably devoted to the goverment to be taken by the shaod.

 

If, in the future, the entire planet was under the rule of a single dominion, I could definitely see this as having a huge impact on how the Dor is accessed and used by its citizens. At least once the goverment is established long enough to wipe out any other cognitive national identities.

 

I'm not saying I think this will happen, but that it's theoretically possible.

 

Your argument seems to be based entirely on speculation and your personal interpretation of some words. And on the idea that the new Arelish people somehow crafted the same form of government as the people who originally built Elantris? For that matter, once the Elantrians were a thing, the government changed again. Why didn't the magic?

 

 

@Darnam, while I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions, something feels wrong about how you're describing this.  I think you are treating Elantris as part of the magic system, when it could possibly be considered a product of said magic system.

 

One could make the argument that a new Elantris could be made, in the shape of an entire planet (and perhaps the size of it), and new Aons developed, to simply access a "higher level" of geography.  

 

As an active "spell," I think that the Aon Rao that is Elantris is both a product of the magic system, and part of it. Though perhaps you and I mean different things when we say "a part of the magic system". Are you saying that you think one orignal system of magic created Rao, and even though that system is now defunct, the spell it crafted remains active?

 

And there is WoB (which I will find when I'm not running out the door to watch Thor 2) that Aons are not "developed". Unlike normal language, Aons exist, independent of human will or imagination. They only await discovery.

[Shardlet he/him]

And there is WoB (which I will find when I'm not running out the door to watch Thor 2) that Aons are not "developed". Unlike normal language, Aons exist, independent of human will or imagination. They only await discovery.

 

Given that, it seems more likely that Elantris was patterned after aon Rao rather than the alternative.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Your argument seems to be based entirely on speculation and your personal interpretation of some words. And on the idea that the new Arelish people somehow crafted the same form of government as the people who originally built Elantris? For that matter, once the Elantrians were a thing, the government changed again. Why didn't the magic?

 

No, I'm not the one who came up with the idea that Sel magic is based on being "devoted" to a "dominion". The concept was introduced in a different thread and I like the idea, it sounds logical to me.

 

And aren't most of the theories here based largely on speculation anyway?

 

And I don't think the Arelish people created the same form of government as whoever built Elantris. I'm not even sure how you reached that conclusion from what I said?

 

What I'm saying is that the Arelish people set up a new kingdom around Elantris. The first generation probably didn't have enough cognitive association with the new government for the Aon Rao to affect them, but when Elashe was born she was second generation and so saw herself as being from there, not from wherever the settlers came from.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

No, I'm not the one who came up with the idea that Sel magic is based on being "devoted" to a "dominion". The concept was introduced in a different thread and I like the idea, it sounds logical to me.

 

And aren't most of the theories here based largely on speculation anyway?

 

And I don't think the Arelish people created the same form of government as whoever built Elantris. I'm not even sure how you reached that conclusion from what I said?

 

What I'm saying is that the Arelish people set up a new kingdom around Elantris. The first generation probably didn't have enough cognitive association with the new government for the Aon Rao to affect them, but when Elashe was born she was second generation and so saw herself as being from there, not from wherever the settlers came from.

 

I believe Darnam's confusion about the Arelish forming the same kind of government from you conflating "dominion" and "government" in post #12.

 

On the discussion of Elashe and the first Elantrians.  People first began to be taken by the Shaod several decades after King Raoshem settles in Elantris.  Also, there is no indication that Elashe was the first to be taken by the Shaod (which is a "fact" I've seen mentioned in this thread) she is only described as the first of Raoshem's line to be taken.

 

Link discussing first Elantrians

 

Link for Devotion to Dominion theory

[Shardbearer he/him]

Thanks for that link about the Aons. I haven't seen that before.

[Oudeis he/him]

Given that, it seems more likely that Elantris was patterned after aon Rao rather than the alternative.

 

Yes. I believe everyone agrees that Aon Rao was a fact of Sel, and then someone built Elantris for the express purpose of crafting one giant "spell". I believe we have WoB somewhere in the annotations that the Aons were not invented by man; they are as inherent to the nature of Sel as gravity or thermodynamics.

 

No, I'm not the one who came up with the idea that Sel magic is based on being "devoted" to a "dominion". The concept was introduced in a different thread and I like the idea, it sounds logical to me.

 

And aren't most of the theories here based largely on speculation anyway?

 

And I don't think the Arelish people created the same form of government as whoever built Elantris. I'm not even sure how you reached that conclusion from what I said?

 

What I'm saying is that the Arelish people set up a new kingdom around Elantris. The first generation probably didn't have enough cognitive association with the new government for the Aon Rao to affect them, but when Elashe was born she was second generation and so saw herself as being from there, not from wherever the settlers came from.

 

Fine, I'll be more specific: It's based on one arbitratry definition of a few words. That is one possible way to interpret a connection between Devotion and Dominion, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible interpretation or that it's right. And in post twelve you talked about a connection to the "dominion (government) that controls the land." And... the fact that later in this post, you once again talk about the magic having to do with someone mentally associating themselves with the government. I'm still very confused at your confusion. This is why I thought you were saying that the dominion is the government. I truly don't understand what you mean. If it is tied to the government or national identity, the magic of modern Arelon should be very different from the magic of the past which was presumably a different nation with a different government, and since they both use Aon Rao, that seems unlikely. If it is NOT tied to the government, then I do not understand what can change in the future that would make a single, unified system of magic. The only thing that works is if your interpretation is "I define myself by the physical borders of land around me" which seems... incredibly specific conjecture, not to mention having little to do with "devotion" and almost nothing to do with "dominion" until you stretch both words to the breaking point.

Speculation is fine, but a lot of one thing I like about this forum is that people will frequently back up their claims with supporting evidence. As Terry Pratchett once said, only those with their feet on solid ground can build castles in the air.

[Shardlet he/him]

 I believe we have WoB somewhere in the annotations that the Aons were not invented by man; they are as inherent to the nature of Sel as gravity or thermodynamics.

 

It is in the first link provided by Weiry a few posts ago.

[Oudeis he/him]

It is in the first link provided by Weiry a few posts ago.

 

Aha, thank you! And thank you, Weiry!

[Shardbearer he/him]

 

do·min·ion

dəˈminyən/  

noun

noun: dominion; plural noun: dominions

1.  

   sovereignty; control.

   "man's attempt to establish dominion over nature"

   synonyms: supremacy, ascendancy, dominance, domination, superiority, predominance, preeminence, hegemony, authority, mastery, control, command, power, sway, rule, government, jurisdiction, sovereignty, suzerainty More

   "at the time the Spartans had dominion over Athens"
2.  

   the territory of a sovereign or government.

   "the Angevin dominions"

   synonyms: dependency, colony, protectorate, territory, province, possession; More

 

 

If you look at the at the second definition of dominion, I do not think it is a stretch at all to say that this is how magic would work when based on a shard called Dominion. So yes, on Sel, I think that the "physical borders of land around me" and one's cognitive and/or spiritual ties to that land are important to the magic.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think Darnam was referring to your use of the word "government" and made the easy interpretation that you were refering to the body and form of the government itself rather than to the territory of a sovereign nation being a dominion.