[SA3 spoilers] Kaladin back in Hearthstone (Yet another topic on this)

[AerionBFII he/him]

Honestly, I think Kaladin is going to find Roshone with no power left after the Everstorm, because everyone is too busy trying to survive. I think he'll take one look at him, say, "Nope, you're not worth my time," and move on with his life. Maybe if he'd come home earlier he would have fought with Roshone, but the with everything that's happened since, I think he'll have realized there are more important things to worry about.

 

I think he'll expect Lirin and Hesina to be upset with him, but as soon as they see him they'll ask why he didn't come home sooner. Maybe it's cheesy, but I kind of imagine Lirin actually crying to see one of his sons come home. (Also, I kinda doubt it will happen, but my dream is to see what would happen if Lirin and Hesina ever met Dadlinar).

 

As for Laral... I think Kaladin will put his feelings for her to rest. I think at this point she's one of the biggest "what-ifs" he hasn't dealt with yet, and a big part of letting go of the pain in his past will be letting her go as well. I do think he'll help her in whatever way she needs, but in the end, they'll most likely part as fond friends.

 

And maybe it's not completely within the "Hearthstone" plotline, but I love the idea of Kaladin getting caught up in the rioting in Kholinar... but this time on the side of the lighteyes!

+1 I agree!!

Earlier in the story i think he would have avenged himself and his brother but he has grown as a character and a KN.

I don't claim he would not feel any hatred towards Roshone and he might even feel tempted despite his progression but i think he has grown enough not to act on it. I think Roshone will try to undermine him and try to force his hand...... We hope...

Edited August 8, 2015 by WEZ313

[Humpty he/him]

     I really hope BS doesnt spend to much time at Hearthstone two or three chapters should do it. Enough time for Kaladin to make his presense known, put that tenner Roshone in his place since Kaladin outranks him now. Make peace with his famly/past meet up with Wit and Jasnah. Gather everyone up and lead them to Kholinar all the while learning his next oath dealing with leadership.

[maxal she/her]

     I really hope BS doesnt spend to much time at Hearthstone two or three chapters should do it. Enough time for Kaladin to make his presense known, put that tenner Roshone in his place since Kaladin outranks him now. Make peace with his famly/past meet up with Wit and Jasnah. Gather everyone up and lead them to Kholinar all the while learning his next oath dealing with leadership.

 

Too predictable. Everyone expects this will happen because Kaladin has always been the hero, the savior. He will save Heartstone, assert his leadership, horde everyone to Kholinar, quell the rebellion there and worked up how to open the Oathgate. 

 

Somehow, I doubt it will be this easy... way too predictable.

 

What if, for once, Kaladin was not the hero they need for this task?

 

Heartstone saves itself without Kaladin's help.

 

Kholinar does not want to have anything to do with Kaladin. Why would they listen to him? Who is he anyway? Besides, why would Kaladin side with the depraved queen? I see much issues here which leads me to believe Kaladin will be powerless to stop the rebellion...

 

He can't always be the hero and somehow, I doubt his story arc will resume itself to him saving the day at the end of every book.

[Humpty he/him]

Too predictable. Everyone expects this will happen because Kaladin has always been the hero, the savior. He will save Heartstone, assert his leadership, horde everyone to Kholinar, quell the rebellion there and worked up how to open the Oathgate. 

 

Somehow, I doubt it will be this easy... way too predictable.

 

What if, for once, Kaladin was not the hero they need for this task?

 

Heartstone saves itself without Kaladin's help.

 

Kholinar does not want to have anything to do with Kaladin. Why would they listen to him? Who is he anyway? Besides, why would Kaladin side with the depraved queen? I see much issues here which leads me to believe Kaladin will be powerless to stop the rebellion...

 

He can't always be the hero and somehow, I doubt his story arc will resume itself to him saving the day at the end of every book.

Yeah I wrote a very condensed version of what I want to happen he is already to late to save hearthstone I think it will be mainly to gather up what remains of the survivors.

I am pretty sure they would listen to him b/c of the whole glowing person falling from the sky cracking the paving stones inbetween the lighteyes and darkeyes forces.

I dont think he will choose sides. pretty sure he will just be annoyed that people are not banding togather in the face of what is coming.

I also think that the real people saving the day will be members of bridge four with their newly bonded spren. (least I hope thats the case)

[mirahound she/her]

Too predictable. Everyone expects this will happen because Kaladin has always been the hero, the savior. He will save Heartstone, assert his leadership, horde everyone to Kholinar, quell the rebellion there and worked up how to open the Oathgate. 

 

Somehow, I doubt it will be this easy... way too predictable.

 

What if, for once, Kaladin was not the hero they need for this task?

 

Heartstone saves itself without Kaladin's help.

 

Kholinar does not want to have anything to do with Kaladin. Why would they listen to him? Who is he anyway? Besides, why would Kaladin side with the depraved queen? I see much issues here which leads me to believe Kaladin will be powerless to stop the rebellion...

 

He can't always be the hero and somehow, I doubt his story arc will resume itself to him saving the day at the end of every book.

I don't see him siding with Elhokar's wife, but I do see the events in Kholinar devolving into a Reign of Terror like the French Revolution, where everyone with even remotely light eyes are being murdered for no reason. If Kaladin ends up in Kholinar and sticks with his oaths, he would have to protect those who were innocent.

 

Edit: Okay so maybe I just really want to see Kaladin as the Rosharan Scarlet Pimpernel. Don't judge me. 

Edited August 15, 2015 by mirahound

[maxal she/her]

Yeah I wrote a very condensed version of what I want to happen he is already to late to save hearthstone I think it will be mainly to gather up what remains of the survivors.

I am pretty sure they would listen to him b/c of the whole glowing person falling from the sky cracking the paving stones inbetween the lighteyes and darkeyes forces.

I dont think he will choose sides. pretty sure he will just be annoyed that people are not banding togather in the face of what is coming.

I also think that the real people saving the day will be members of bridge four with their newly bonded spren. (least I hope thats the case)

 

What if the survivors do not wish to leave? What if Heartstone had already manage to organize itself? Who's to say they needed Kaladin anyway? What claim does he have over a town he deserted years ago when he made the choice to not come back?

 

I am pretty sure they will not listen to him. Radiants are feared and distrusted. Why would they suddenly listen to this guy? I do not get why people assume the Radiants will simply take control by virtue of being Radiants... It probably won't happen, not at first. Besides, Kaladin is bound to think the rebellion is right. He can't support the queen and be protective: the queen is starving her people. Kaladin is likely to have his hands bound in Kholinar. 

 

Bridge 4 are squires, not knights.

[maxal she/her]

I don't see him siding with Elhokar's wife, but I do see the events in Kholinar devolving into a Reign of Terror like the French Revolution, where everyone with even remotely light eyes are being murdered for no reason. If Kaladin ends up in Kholinar and sticks with his oaths, he would have to protect those who were innocent.

 

French revolution is the parallel I had in mind too. It ended up in a carnage at the end of which they elected an emperor who set himself to conquer the world: Napoleon. After his fall, ensued a new king, then a dictator, then another king... and plenty of wars which the French lost...

 

Yeah. In truth, the French revolution took a 100 years before it produced a government and a 100 years after it happened, people were still supporting the monarchy. Revolutions take time to work, a great deal lot of time. 

[Humpty he/him]

What if the survivors do not wish to leave? What if Heartstone had already manage to organize itself? Who's to say they needed Kaladin anyway? What claim does he have over a town he deserted years ago when he made the choice to not come back?

 

I am pretty sure they will not listen to him. Radiants are feared and distrusted. Why would they suddenly listen to this guy? I do not get why people assume the Radiants will simply take control by virtue of being Radiants... It probably won't happen, not at first. Besides, Kaladin is bound to think the rebellion is right. He can't support the queen and be protective: the queen is starving her people. Kaladin is likely to have his hands bound in Kholinar. 

 

Bridge 4 are squires, not knights.

 

Why wouldnt they wish to leave? the town is in ruins. I appericate the whole we can face anything on our own story line, however, a couple hundred lightning hurling voidbringers will change minds real fast I would think. As far as the squire thing are you sure that is the case? I haven't read that anywhere. And even if they are just Squires at this time. who is to say they wont be bonded knights by the time the book ends. After all the very definition of "squire" is a knight in training historicly speaking of course.

[Seloun]

My feeling as to the big 'lesson' that Kaladin will learn in book 3 (assuming it follows the basic patterns of talking with Hoid -> rationalizing an issue -> developing as KR) is that sometimes he has to let people risk themselves to protect other people (e.g. 'I will protect those that cannot protect themselves' -> 'I will let those that can protect themselves protect others'). We see shadows of this in TWoK and WoR already, e.g.

 

 

Kaladin closed his own eyes. I’ve failed you, he thought. The balding, square-faced man had survived Bridge Four and the rescue of Dalinar’s armies. He’d survived Damnation itself, only to fall here, to an assassin with powers he should not have.

 

Kaladin groaned.

 

“He died protecting.” Syl’s voice.

 

“I should be able to keep them alive,” Kaladin said. “Why didn’t I just let them go free? Why did I bring them to this duty, and more death?”

 

“Someone has to fight. Someone has to protect.”

 

“They’ve done enough! They’ve bled their share. I should banish them all. Dalinar can find different bodyguards.”

 

“They made the choice,” Syl said. “You can’t take that from them.”

 

Kaladin knelt, struggling with his grief.

 

You have to learn when to care, son. His father’s voice. And when to let go. You’ll grow calluses. He never had. Storm him, he never had. It was why he’d never made a good surgeon. He couldn’t lose patients.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 382-383). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

And near the end of WoR:

 

 

Kaladin pulled Teft aside. “Did we lose anyone else?” Kaladin asked. “I saw Mart and Pedin.”

 

“Rod,” Teft said with a grunt. “Dead to the Parshendi.”

 

Kaladin closed his eyes, breathing out in a hiss. Rod had been one of Lopen’s cousins, a jovial Herdazian who hardly spoke Alethi. Kaladin had barely known him, but the man had still been Bridge Four. Kaladin’s responsibility.

 

“You can’t protect us all, son,” Teft said. “You can’t stop people from feeling pain, can’t stop men from dying.”

 

Kaladin opened his eyes, but did not challenge those statements. Not vocally, at least.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1047). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

I could see an arc where Kaladin finds himself spreading too thin trying to protect everyone from everything at Hearthstone and Kholinar, only to fail because he can't concentrate himself at the important places. Lirin is a good candidate to help him learn the lesson. Also, I think this fits well with the concept of Windrunner squires; it seems likely they'll play a prominent role in the next book.

 

This might be one of the ways Windrunners and Edgedancers may be 'mirrored' - While they both pursue similar goals, Windrunners are commanders, and have to look at the big picture, while Edgedancers are combat medics, and have to be focused on the immediate situation.

[mortalcoil]

I see hearthstones story leading up to Kaladin's arrival as thus: Lirin is tending the wounded in the town when Roshones guards drag him up to the mansion because Roshone is injured, he is unable to save Roshone, Laral is the only lighteyes left behind and is a less than ideal leader. Most people in the town move up to/into the manor as Lirin has been unable to leave yet and are being treated there, Laral has secluded herself in her rooms. I'm also curious as I can't remember how the light in the manor was described if at all, if they have stormlight still or are stuck with oil/candles.

 

The parshmen - we have seen no signs of bodies or corpses (Alethi normally have a pyre right?) yet - so I would assume that the transformation from slaveform to stormform has shocked them quite a bit and they've well Stormed off - I mean if they had much sense they probably wouldnt of just crashed through a wall would they? They may have returned since but been fought off, or they may be running off and being drawn into an Alethkar wide voidbringer army.

 

From imprecise leadership and noone knowing what to do they won't be/aren't ready for another storm. I picture 2 options on Kaladins arrival: Kaladins leadership kicks in and his arrival may spur some of this I imagine he'll get them building stormwagons or houses designed to defend from both sides.

Or the parshmen attack soon after and he fights them off then everyone goes gaga for the shardbearer without realising just who he is until he finally catches one of his parents alone.

 

I like the thought of Kaladin later rocking up to Kholinar and finding some darkeyes in charge and making as big a ham of it as the lighteyes, perhaps even bigger. I also like the idea that Jasnah or some other force rocked up and saved hearthstone before his arrival and he ends up trying to lead and stepping on peoples toes and this leads to an oath based around respecting other leaders, or following others when they are leading.

[maxal she/her]

Why wouldnt they wish to leave? the town is in ruins. I appericate the whole we can face anything on our own story line, however, a couple hundred lightning hurling voidbringers will change minds real fast I would think. As far as the squire thing are you sure that is the case? I haven't read that anywhere. And even if they are just Squires at this time. who is to say they wont be bonded knights by the time the book ends. After all the very definition of "squire" is a knight in training historicly speaking of course.

 

 

We do not know what the exact state of the town is. It could be they abandon part of it to defend another one. It could be Heartstone is not the disaster Kaladin expects. It could someone else took charge. Why would it be the entire world simply awaits Kaladin to rescue them as if he were the only individual capable of doing something? 

 

We all assume Heartstone went from bad to worst simply because Kaladin left. What if he is not needed as much as he thinks he is?

 

People will often refuse to leave their homes even in the scope of a war. It is all they know. Besides, they are part of the Sadeas princedom. Under which supposition would they wish to go to another princedom? Why Kholinar? Surely the Sadeas princedom has an equivalent large city. It does not make sense for them to go there of all places.

 

It is more logical they would want to learn to protect their own town and I see Kaladin helping here and accepting not everyone wants to be protected. He has to let some people do it on their own.

 

Bridge 4 are squires, not knights. This has been confirmed.

 

 

I could see an arc where Kaladin finds himself spreading too thin trying to protect everyone from everything at Hearthstone and Kholinar, only to fail because he can't concentrate himself at the important places. Lirin is a good candidate to help him learn the lesson. Also, I think this fits well with the concept of Windrunner squires; it seems likely they'll play a prominent role in the next book.

 

This might be one of the ways Windrunners and Edgedancers may be 'mirrored' - While they both pursue similar goals, Windrunners are commanders, and have to look at the big picture, while Edgedancers are combat medics, and have to be focused on the immediate situation.

 

 I see an arc where Kaladin is unable to protect everyone during the Kholinar rebellion. After seeing that Heartstone managed to take care of itself, he would be more prone to let go, to accept he can't be everywhere and to stop thinking it is his fault. 

 

Strange your mirror between Windrunners and Edgedancers as I disagree... Kaladin is awful at seeing the large picture and works best when concentrating on small scale operations. Any large one implies having to nearly break an oath, so I do not see Kaladin taking up war leadership of large scale operations. Simply because one of the Windrunners attributes is "leadership" does not mean he will end up as military head of Roshar. I bet he won't because his strengths are elsewhere. As for the Edgedancers, I think it must fluctuates. They were known to be deadly soldiers and I have Adolin in my list of proto-Edgedancer via his dead-Blade. He is a much better war leader than Kaladin, able to see the large picture and aptly leading thousands of men into decisive battle. The fact he cares so much makes him a general not willing to waste human life which makes loving Edgedancer totally suited for large scale operations. Adolin is also seen to care a lot for the aftermath of the battle, where he makes sure everyone is taken care of after the chasmfiend hunt, not just because he was asked to, but because he wanted to. I thus do not think Edgedancers would simply always be field medics: some yes, others no.

 

In any advent, I do not think the orders partake themselves in such way. I think the different individuals would fall into roles befitting them independently of their orders. Based on what I have seen, I do not see Kaladin leading large scale operation too focus he is on the small things. Windrunner with a leadership attribute or no, I do not think this role suits him. Also there is the fact leadership does not required one to become a war leader to be exercised.

 

I could be wrong about it, but this is how I currently see it.

[mirahound she/her]

My feeling as to the big 'lesson' that Kaladin will learn in book 3 (assuming it follows the basic patterns of talking with Hoid -> rationalizing an issue -> developing as KR) is that sometimes he has to let people risk themselves to protect other people (e.g. 'I will protect those that cannot protect themselves' -> 'I will let those that can protect themselves protect others'). We see shadows of this in TWoK and WoR already, e.g.

 

 

And near the end of WoR:

 

 

I could see an arc where Kaladin finds himself spreading too thin trying to protect everyone from everything at Hearthstone and Kholinar, only to fail because he can't concentrate himself at the important places. Lirin is a good candidate to help him learn the lesson. Also, I think this fits well with the concept of Windrunner squires; it seems likely they'll play a prominent role in the next book.

 

This might be one of the ways Windrunners and Edgedancers may be 'mirrored' - While they both pursue similar goals, Windrunners are commanders, and have to look at the big picture, while Edgedancers are combat medics, and have to be focused on the immediate situation.

This actually makes a lot of sense in my opinion, especially since his going home to Hearthstone would be the perfect time to review the one lesson from Lirin he never learned: when to let go.

[Patrick Star]

They go to Kholinar, where the riots are going on.

 

In order to catch everybody's attention, Kaladin flies to the shattered plains and rides a chasmfiend back, which silences the crowd.

 

Hey!  I can dream!

[mirahound she/her]

They go to Kholinar, where the riots are going on.

 

In order to catch everybody's attention, Kaladin flies to the shattered plains and rides a chasmfiend back, which silences the crowd.

 

Hey!  I can dream!

Wit would be proud. He's just a step away from teaching them to sing!

[Seloun]

Strange your mirror between Windrunners and Edgedancers as I disagree... Kaladin is awful at seeing the large picture and works best when concentrating on small scale operations. Any large one implies having to nearly break an oath, so I do not see Kaladin taking up war leadership of large scale operations. Simply because one of the Windrunners attributes is "leadership" does not mean he will end up as military head of Roshar. I bet he won't because his strengths are elsewhere. As for the Edgedancers, I think it must fluctuates. They were known to be deadly soldiers and I have Adolin in my list of proto-Edgedancer via his dead-Blade. He is a much better war leader than Kaladin, able to see the large picture and aptly leading thousands of men into decisive battle. The fact he cares so much makes him a general not willing to waste human life which makes loving Edgedancer totally suited for large scale operations. Adolin is also seen to care a lot for the aftermath of the battle, where he makes sure everyone is taken care of after the chasmfiend hunt, not just because he was asked to, but because he wanted to. I thus do not think Edgedancers would simply always be field medics: some yes, others no.

 

In any advent, I do not think the orders partake themselves in such way. I think the different individuals would fall into roles befitting them independently of their orders. Based on what I have seen, I do not see Kaladin leading large scale operation too focus he is on the small things. Windrunner with a leadership attribute or no, I do not think this role suits him. Also there is the fact leadership does not required one to become a war leader to be exercised.

 

Darkness specifically attributes focus on individual details to Edgedancers (which is really where this idea originated):

 

 

“Edgedancer,” Lift said. “I don’t know what that is.”

 

“They were once a glorious order,” Darkness said, walking her down the hallway. Everyone ignored them, focused instead on Gawx. “Where you blunder, they were elegant things of beauty. They could ride the thinnest rope at speed, dance across rooftops, move through a battlefield like a ribbon on the wind.”

 

“That sounds . . . amazing.”

 

“Yes. It is unfortunate they were always so concerned with small-minded things, while ignoring those of greater import. It appears you share their temperament. You have become one of them.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 705). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Combining with the WoR epigraph on Edgedancers suggests that Edgedancers tend to be pretty easy going people who are primarily focused on the personal scale (but fearsome when roused).

 

Kaladin spends all of TWoK and WoR (including much of his flashbacks) in command of something. In WoR, he is in command of a unit that consists of at least a thousand members; I don't think the technical aspects of commanding a large military force is really an issue for Kaladin. As Kaladin himself points out, however, and as mentioned in my previous post, Kaladin still has trouble 'letting go' and letting people risk themselves for important reasons.

 

However, the entire point of that is that this is a _failing_ of Kaladin's in terms of being an archetypical Windrunner, which is why I suggest this is how he'll develop in Book 3. Yes, Kaladin has this issue; that doesn't mean the archetypical Windrunner has the same issue. Suggesting Windrunners tend to behave one way and Edgedancers tend to behave in another way is not synonymous with saying Kaladin behaves one way and Adolin behaves in another.

 

Clearly the individual Radiant is going to be distinct from others of the same order; however, it's likely that there were sufficient commonalities that you could make reasonably accurate generalizations. This is what both Darkness and the WoR epigraphs suggest, and since KR by definition exemplify a specific cognitive attribute set that attract a particular kind of spren, it doesn't seem surprising that KR of a given order would tend to behave in similar ways.

[Numuhuku he/him]

In any advent, I do not think the orders partake themselves in such way. I think the different individuals would fall into roles befitting them independently of their orders. Based on what I have seen, I do not see Kaladin leading large scale operation too focus he is on the small things. Windrunner with a leadership attribute or no, I do not think this role suits him. Also there is the fact leadership does not required one to become a war leader to be exercised.

I don't know if Kaladin will have a choice in the matter. There's kind of an apocalyptic nightmare war brewing that has the potential to wipe out all human life on the planet, and Kaladin holds the rank of a battalion commander in the Kholin army. Kaladin actually pressed Dalinar to put him in charge of all the Bridgemen if you recall. He can't just worm his way out of that duty. When push comes to shove, Kaladin is going to be there to lead those men into battle. And against inhuman horrors and monsters, the leadership of a radiant will be essential.

 

And when light eyed officers and high princes end up among the innumerable casualties, don't expect Kaladin to end up with less responsibilities. 

 

I suspect one of the things that Kaladin will find himself being challenged on in this upcoming book is his own personal insistence that he doesn't want to be in charge. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by Numuhuku

[maxal she/her]

...

 

I tend to read Darkness comment as being pejorative. I truly felt he was being judgmental and what he perceived as frivolous (focus on small things) may not be what we think. For instance, I strongly suspect he would regard with contempt the fact Lift carries a lucky diamond chip or that Adolin needs to perform a ritual before fighting. Surely he would call such things being "focus on small things", the same way Navani regarded it as a foolishness. I thus have reserves in taking his comment front hand and claiming the Edgedancers were incapable of taking in the large picture.

 

They were caring people and the downside of caring people is they get attached not only to people, but to small objects... a favorite shirt, a favorite food, a favorite necklace, a favorite diamond chip... and since they invest emotions into these silly things, they can get quite distressed if they go missing. That's exactly the kind of behavior stern, rigid Skybreakers would frown on.

 

I simply think we should refrain from making assumptions in stating all Windrunners occupy field commands and all Edgedancers occupy field medics positions. We know this is not true and whereas the orders are choosing people with the similar attributes being good at leading people does not equal having a good head for military tactics, it means being good taking charge of a group for a purpose which may be something else entirely. For instance, a good project leader in an engineering firm may be good at leading people, but would he be good doing the same thing in a context of war? This is my point. Leadership does not equal field command and whereas it is entirely possible and plausible this is where Kaladin is headed, it is not the only way to express leadership and I doubt all the field commanders will end up being Windrunners. 

 

The same could be said for Edgedancer, being caring does not preclude having a good head for military tactics, hence my Adolin versus Kaladin analogy. Adolin is very different than Kaladin, personality wise, but he is a good tactical leader and a good leader in general, so far he has shown a better head for strategy than Kaladin. We could also throw in Dalinar into the lot who certainly is a very effective military leader while harboring different personality traits. The difference between the three is both Dalinar and Adolin are not natural leaders: they learned to be whereas Kaladin just has it in him. However, again, leading men does not equal leading large scale military operations: it means taking charge for a given task which does not have to be related to the war.

 

We do not know, right now, if they is an archetype for the Windrunners. We assume they would be war leaders, but it does not make sense, to me, to place-hold all Radiants from a given order into a specific position. In other words, Kaladin does not have to become the leader of all armies to be a "true" Windrunner. It's probable he'll get there simply because he has the hero journey set in front of him, but I think the story would be more interesting is Brandon showed us how the same attribute can be used in different ways with different occupations. For instance, I am rather keen on meeting a scholar Dustbringer.

Edited August 16, 2015 by maxal

[Awesomness]

I tend to read Darkness comment as being pejorative. I truly felt he was being judgmental and what he perceived as frivolous (focus on small things) may not be what we think. 

 

It feels pajorative to me too, but that doesn´t mean its not true. 

Lift certainly seems to worry about little things, like stealing food in a palace. On the other hand, this doesné mean either that ONLY worry about little things.

 

Also, we know they were deadly, regardless of their healing abilities.

 

 

When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants. 

—Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12^[4]

 

My point is: we know very little about the orders, and we tend to simplify and believe each one is difined by the few characteristics we know.

 

I agree, I´d like to see multifaceted and complex radiants.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Awesomness

[maxal she/her]

It feels pajorative to me too, but that doesn´t mean its not true. 

Lift certainly seems to worry about little things, like stealing food in a palace. On the other hand, this doesné mean either that ONLY worry about little things.

 

I agree with this, but a small correction: I never said Darkness words were not true, I simply it was said in a pejorative manner which led us to believe all there was about Edgedancers was frivolity. I got the feeling there was no lost love between Darkness and the Edgedancers and he held them in bad esteem. However, this is not said explicitly and it merely is my personal interpretation. 

 

I agree Lift do worry about little things, but it does not mean she will never be able to see the bigger picture. She is little girl, so it is hard to say right now. I also agree worrying about little things does not imply it is all they ever worry about.

 

 

Also, we know they were deadly, regardless of their healing abilities.

 

My point is: we know very little about the orders, and we tend to simplify and believe each one is difined by the few characteristics we know.

 

I agree, I´d like to see multifaceted and complex radiants.

 

I agree with this. We do tend to over-simplify it. Windrunners are battlefield commanders because they have leadership as an attribute and their powers are suited for soldiers. I doubt it is this straight-forward as I see not reason why all Windrunners would have the strategic head required to lead large scale armies. In the same way, I do not see what precludes a "wise" and "careful" Elsecaller to be an apt soldier and war general... Simply because powers seem more suited for scholarships and others for battle does not mean all individuals within the same order followed the same path.

 

I for one am very keen to read about various members of the same order and how they each embrace the same attributes in a different manner.

[Seloun]

We do not know, right now, if they is an archetype for the Windrunners. We assume they would be war leaders, but it does not make sense, to me, to place-hold all Radiants from a given order into a specific position. In other words, Kaladin does not have to become the leader of all armies to be a "true" Windrunner. It's probable he'll get there simply because he has the hero journey set in front of him, but I think the story would be more interesting is Brandon showed us how the same attribute can be used in different ways with different occupations. For instance, I am rather keen on meeting a scholar Dustbringer.

 

OP question: What's going to happen in Book 3 (in particular around Hearthstone)?

 

My thesis: Kaladin will learn to accept letting go of patients/soldiers as his father suggested. He will accept that not everyone requires his protection, and should be allowed to risk themselves like he does to protect other people.

 

The essence of my argument is as follows:

 

- Kaladin will undergo character development like Book 1 and Book 2.

- During the penultimate scene of Book 1 and Book 2, Kaladin speaks one of the Words for Windrunners. This will probably happen again.

- Speaking the Words for Windrunners implies Kaladin comes closer to whatever the Windrunner ideal is.

- He has to go through character development because he's lacking the particular attribute that the Words for the book covers at the beginning of the book. In TWoK, this was accepting he could make a difference. In WoR, this was (possibly controversially) accepting that Elhokar deserved protection.

- One of Kaladin's known hang-ups is other people risking their lives (all the quotes from TWoK and WoR mentioned before).

- Therefore, it is likely one of the attributes that are generally associated with Windrunners is related to that hang-up (otherwise, he could have already said the Words).

- Since the issue is that Kaladin isn't willing to accept other people risking their lives even for a  good cause, the 'attribute' is likely being okay with people risking their lives for a good cause.

- This attribute seems related to being a good military commander, and seems associated with the Windrunners being well-known for their squires.

- Therefore, one of the Windrunner attributes will turn out to be some variation of 'letting people protect other people even at the risk of their own lives'. Since this fits neatly into his father concern about Kaladin's maturity in being a surgeon, this will be the lesson Kaladin learns through his journey through Hearthstone (this is the end of the argument proper).

 

Corollary:

 

- Since on the Surgebinding chart Windrunners and Edgedancers are mirrored across the horizontal symmetry, and since I've postulated that the opposition lines are reflective of real behavioral differences (e.g. Lightweavers and Windrunners are mirrored across the origin and are differentiated by their attitude towards honesty among other things), let us consider what sort of behavioral differences may be indicated by the horizontal mirroring.

- We know from Darkness and the WoR Epigraph on Edgedancers that they're 'not the most demanding' and 'concerned with small-minded things'. Yes, Darkness's comment is pejorative. However, it is the only primary source we have at all. So there is almost certainly a grain of truth in the statement; my interpretation is that Edgedancers were probably generally more focused on the small-scale (personal-scale) over the grand strategic scale. Essentially, they would tell you that 'big things are made of little things' and that little things mattered.

- As noted from the original thesis, Windrunners may generally worry about the bigger picture (the main argument, again, is that Kaladin does not do this well as of yet).

- So I hypothesize that the horizontal mirroring in the Surgebinder diagram has to do with scope. If this is true, then we should expect the following:

  - Skybreakers should be focused on the bigger scope (upholding laws) while Dustbringers should be focused on the smaller scope (vigilantism?)

  - Bondsmiths should be focused on the bigger scope (kingship? priestly?) while Truthwatchers should be focused on the smaller scope (individual relationships?)

  - Lightweavers and Stonewards... I'm not so sure fits as well. Maybe something to do with scope of inspiration (personal focused for Lightweavers, on a larger scale for Stonewards?)

- It's certainly possible the horizontal mirroring may indicate a different relationship (or it may purely be aesthetic); the point of the hypothesis is to provide potentially testable predictions (in particular what the KR Orders are 'generally' like).

 

 

Again, I'm not arguing that Kaladin will become the leader of all armies or that even he will lead any army (while that may be the case, that is not the focus of the argument). What I am arguing is 1) how Kaladin's character is likely to develop and 2) as a corollary, what that may say about the nature of the KR orders.

[maxal she/her]

Again, I'm not arguing that Kaladin will become the leader of all armies or that even he will lead any army (while that may be the case, that is not the focus of the argument). What I am arguing is 1) how Kaladin's character is likely to develop and 2) as a corollary, what that may say about the nature of the KR orders.

 

 

 

I am not arguing whether Kaladin will become a military leader or not. I am arguing over the statement he should become one because he is a Windrunner. I believe Kaladin will evolve into such person if his character growth calls for it and not because he has leadership as an attribute as it can be interpreted and applied in various ways.

 

This is the essence of my argumentation: place-holding Radiants into specific roles based on their attributes. What makes the order different from each other is their main attributes and none are "seeing the large picture" or "focus on small things". These are mainly character driven aspects which may happen in any order. Leadership does not come with the capacity to "see the large picture" as one can be the leader of a small scale operation or a small group of people. Protection is an attribute which could be applied at large or specifically. However, it is possible some attributes cause a large majority of individuals to behave in a specific way, but I doubt all members of the same order are this similar. 

 

I also refrain myself from extrapolating the Kaladin's progression to all Windrunners. As a person, Kaladin has his own set of issues which are bound to be different for another Windrunner. The events leading him to find his oaths are linked to his person and not his order. Another Windrunner may have a drastically different progression...