Kelsier, the Sliver

[Araris Valerian he/him]

The nightwatcher's nature is still unclear.  It looks to me that the evidence most strongly supports that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation and therefore would not be a sliver.

Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowlege, so she isn't a shard. The closest terminology we have as far as I know is a sliver.

 

Unless I am mistaken, a sliver is a person who held a signifigant portion of a shard's power but no longer does so. Thus, Vin, Ati, Ruin, the Nightwatcher and Kelsier should all have the same level of sliverhood, with the only distinguishing factor being that Kelsier is largely in the cognitive(?) realm, and thus can influence the world more directly. The OP is arguing that since Kelsier is unique in the cosmere as far as sliverhood and being dead, he is a likely candidate for founding the 17th shard.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Araris Valerian

[Scott]

Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowlege, so she isn't a shard.

 

Can you give us a quote or some evidence for this statement?  

Edited November 18, 2013 by Scott

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowlege, so she isn't a shard. The closest terminology we have as far as I know is a sliver.

 

Unless I am mistaken, a sliver is a person who held a signifigant portion of a shard's power but no longer does so. Thus, Vin, Ati, Ruin, the Nightwatcher and Kelsier should all have the same level of sliverhood, with the only distinguishing factor being that Kelsier is largely in the cognitive(?) realm, and thus can influence the world more directly. The OP is arguing that since Kelsier is unique in the cosmere as far as sliverhood and being dead, he is a likely candidate for founding the 17th shard.

 

There is absolutely no indication that "Cultivation" (as in the holder) no longer holds the shard.  She is still alive and well, besides her lover being dead.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowlege, so she isn't a shard. The closest terminology we have as far as I know is a sliver.

 

 

That makes no sense.

[Oudeis he/him]

Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowlege, so she isn't a shard. The closest terminology we have as far as I know is a sliver.

 

Unless I am mistaken, a sliver is a person who held a signifigant portion of a shard's power but no longer does so. Thus, Vin, Ati, Ruin, the Nightwatcher and Kelsier should all have the same level of sliverhood, with the only distinguishing factor being that Kelsier is largely in the cognitive(?) realm, and thus can influence the world more directly. The OP is arguing that since Kelsier is unique in the cosmere as far as sliverhood and being dead, he is a likely candidate for founding the 17th shard.

 

Cultivation, unless you know something I don't, is probably still alive and still a Shard. Of the other people you list... well, you list Ati twice, once as Ati and once as Ruin (I know they are different people, but "held the power of a Shard and no longer do" can only refer to one person when you mention Ati). Everyone else you list is currently dead. I know that Kelsier hung around briefly, which distinguishes him slightly, but I'm not sure that ever was (or could be) permanent, and is far less of a distinguishing characteristic than you're suggesting.

 

@Darnam Since Allomancy and other such powers are attached to the spiritweb, theoretically a revived Kelsier would still be a Mistborn.

 

As for slivers, can we add the Nightwatcher to the list? I feel like she would count as one since she used to hold the power of a shard. This makes:

Vin: No sliver powers, HoA distinguishes using the power of the well and letting it go

TLR: Vastly increased Allomancy powers

Kelsier: Unknown

Nightwatcher: Magical mystery powers with neurological effects.

 

Since Vin can be counted as an oddball, we can say that all of the slivers that we encountered that used the power of their respective shard were enhanced in some way beyond normal humans. Good theory.

 

Rashek did not get his powers from being a Sliver. I mean, there's a connection, since he gave himself the powers while he held the power of Preservation, and he's a Sliver because he held the power of Preservation, but the two facts are "second cousins" at best; they are not "this one caused that one". And the Nightwatcher isn't a Sliver, unless you know something we don't.

 

Allomancy might be attached to the Spiritweb but he no longer possesses a stomach to burn metals. Also, while we know the spiritweb is involved, does anyone have proof-positive that your physical body doesn't matter? If it didn't, why would the power be passed genetically along family lines? It's possible he couldn't have "just any body". The way a feruchemically stored trait can only be accessed by the donating feruchemist, it's possible that Kel would need both his spiritweb and the body it came in to be a Mistborn; after all, hemalurgy steals bits of your spiritweb, but they still need to obey the laws of the bindpoints on a physical body.

 

 

@Darnam: I have no proof. I put this forth as a theory. And not even one I'm completely sold on. But I find it a very compelling line of thought.

I think I did a pretty good job of giving reasons why I DO think Kel could be the founder.

 

I didn't mean to imply that I think you have any burden of proof. Like I've said before, it's entirely plausible, I just personally don't believe it.

 

I think you've made a lot of conjecture detailing one way that Kel might be part of the 17th Shard. I think it's a stretch with no foundation, but I certainly couldn't disprove it. I think I could just as convincingly argue that Ham is the founding member of the 17th Shard, because we don't know what happened to him after Hero of Ages. You've chosen to suggest this idea, as is entirely your right on this forum. I've suffered before as the victim of "why did you post something you can't prove" and I'm sorry if I came across as being that antagonistic. I personally think your idea is unsupported, but there are 30-some-odd books in the cosmere yet to be published, so the support might simply be forthcoming. If you turn out to be right, you'll look like a prophet.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I guess that I assumed that Cultivation was splintered in much the same way as Honor. Since Odium is present on Roshar as well, Cultivation could simply use her shardly powers to oppose those of Odium and nothing supernatural would happen except through ways similar to how Ruin controlled Koloss, by manipulating their intent. Additionally, the shards that we know of so far (Sazed, Preservation, Ruin, Vin, Endowment) didn't habitually inhabit a visible, human form except to those that were influenced directly by their power. Sorry for not explaining this, and it may have a few holes in it, but I don't feel like shards would sit around and play with peoples neurons while ignoring the rest of the cosmere. Also, I like supporting theories even if they aren't completely grounded in books just as an opportunity for discussion.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Araris Valerian

[Oudeis he/him]

Sorry for not explaining this, and it may have a few holes in it, but I don't feel like shards would sit around and play with peoples neurons while ignoring the rest of the cosmere. Also, I like supporting theories even if they aren't completely grounded in books just as an opportunity for discussion.

 

All right. All of that is fine... but if you just present evidence like this with no caveat, I think you can see that it will cause a bit of confusion. Instead of saying, "Cultivation no longer holds her power to my knowledge," which makes it sound as though you have some reason to believe this to be the case, you could phrase it as, "I theorize that the woman who once held the Shard of Cultivation might have lost that power; we know Odium shattered Honor, he could have done the same for her, possibly with non-fatal results." This would make it clear that it is supposition, and you wouldn't have to put up with us all bothering you afterwards to ask for supporting evidence. I've found on these forums specifically that the vast majority of people make flat statements when they have supporting evidence; obviously you don't have to do that, but I think you'll often find yourself misunderstood among this group.

[Shardlet he/him]

Additionally, the shards that we know of so far (Sazed, Preservation, Ruin, Vin, Endowment) didn't habitually inhabit a visible, human form except to those that were influenced directly by their power.

 

None of the info we have on the nightwatcher indicates that the Nightwatcher occupies a corporeal form.  Also, just because we have not seen it yet, doesn't mean it cannot be.  Add to that, one could readily argue that any and all of the Rosharans could be directly influenced by Cultivation's power thus being capable of being directly manifet to in a simlar way to how we saw Preservation as the mist spirit and ruin as whatever he chose to look like. Vin was able to sort of appear to Elend even though she was very new to the game and rather preoccupied at the time.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I think that if the person no longer held the Cultivation shard Odium would be doing something rather than hanging out at another planet in the system. I'm not sure what, as taking over the planet nor taking control of the shards are probably not his goal, but something. His whole goal might be to shatter Cultivation and leave the planet in a similar state to Sel.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

On the topic of Cultivation I put my reasons here. Discounting that leaves my one example where the kandra distinguished between holding the power at the Well and spending it. This means that TLR may have had some enhanced capabilities due to his sliverhood. I'm not sure if Leras can be counted as a sliver when he gave up his power, but if so he had special powers within the physical realm and possibly in the others, since he seemed to get around fairly well and had a special knife. With these examples, I surmise around 60% chance that Kelsier had some signifigant changes to his self after holding Preservation which could have boosted his capabilities to influence those such as Demoux. If only the Returned stayed alive, we could have seen if they had enhanced powers.

[Oudeis he/him]

I'm not sure if Leras can be counted as a sliver when he gave up his power, but if so he had special powers within the physical realm and possibly in the others, since he seemed to get around fairly well and had a special knife.

 

 

Leras never gave up the power of Preservation... he was always the Shard. He sacrificed his own mind to form a prison for Ruin, he didn't give up the power. He was a Shard until he died. He was never a Sliver.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

If only the Returned stayed alive, we could have seen if they had enhanced powers.

 

I'm curious as to why you bring up the Returned, they aren't slivers, they hold splinters in the form of the divine breaths.

[Oudeis he/him]

Also your whole basis is that dying doesn't stop a Sliver. And the Returned are worshipped as Gods far more formally and universally than Kelsier ever was. If they were Slivers, they'd be far more likely to be the type of person you claim than Kell ever could.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

So the Returned hold splinters. If they gave away the divine breath, they could be considered sliver due to having held a respectable portion of a shard's power and then losing it. Additionally, Kelsier is unique (so far as we know) in that he stayed around in the cognitive realm as opposed to where normal dead people go, which is the spiritual realm. This would give him some greater influence over the world such as the capacity to access a dead shard's power. Furthermore, we don't know how much influence Nalthians have over the 17th shard, while we do know that Demoux is a member. Thus Kelsier is a much more likely candidate than any of the Returned for being the founder of the 17th shard. We don't even know how realmatically aware Nalthians are. Given the evidence we have, it is hard to draw Nalthis and Endowment into this discussion. I simply meant that a Returned without breath would be another example of a sliver that we could examine.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

So the Returned hold splinters. If they gave away the divine breath, they could be considered sliver due to having held a respectable portion of a shard's power and then losing it. Additionally, Kelsier is unique (so far as we know) in that he stayed around in the cognitive realm as opposed to where normal dead people go, which is the spiritual realm. This would give him some greater influence over the world such as the capacity to access a dead shard's power. Furthermore, we don't know how much influence Nalthians have over the 17th shard, while we do know that Demoux is a member. Thus Kelsier is a much more likely candidate than any of the Returned for being the founder of the 17th shard. We don't even know how realmatically aware Nalthians are. Given the evidence we have, it is hard to draw Nalthis and Endowment into this discussion. I simply meant that a Returned without breath would be another example of a sliver that we could examine.

 

1) No, they would not be termed slivers.  A sliver is a person who has held the majority of a shard's power and since released it, this in no way describes the Returned.  Endowment still controls the bulk of its power.  Returned are not slivers.

 

2) Although people, when they die, pass through the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, dead people do not reside in the Spiritual Realm, their final resting place is beyond the Three Realms.

[Scott]

I think we have WoB that the leader/founder of the 17th Shard is actually a Dragon...

 

While Kelseir may qualify as a dragon figuratively, I don't think he had anything to do with the 17th Shard,

[Shardlet he/him]

Nope, the WoB is that the recipient of the letter is a dragon.  They dragon appears (by the wording of the letter) to be a member of the 17th Shard.  But, there is no indication that he/she theleader much less the founder.  We do not have any info from eitherBrandon or the books that I am aware of which speaks the the leader or the founder of the17th Shard.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1) No, they would not be termed slivers.  A sliver is a person who has held the majority of a shard's power and since released it, this in no way describes the Returned.  Endowment still controls the bulk of its power.  Returned are not slivers.

If this is WoB then great. But Sazed said in HoA that the Well held only a fraction of the power of preservation. TLR is accepted to be a sliver after holding only this power, so perhaps Returned could be slivers as well. I feel like the distinction here is like comparing apples to bananas, both are fruit, but come in different flavors. There isn't really a measure of how many breaths would make up Endowment, nor how much the Well held of Preservation. Unfortunately, if Returned had the potential to become slivers the process kills them regardless. New question for Brandon: How many breaths makes up Endowment?

[Oudeis he/him]

The power in the Well was enough to move planets. The power of a Divine Breath is enough to animate a corpse. That's not comparing an apple and a banana, that's comparing an apple and a plantation.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

If this is WoB then great. But Sazed said in HoA that the Well held only a fraction of the power of preservation. TLR is accepted to be a sliver after holding only this power, so perhaps Returned could be slivers as well. I feel like the distinction here is like comparing apples to bananas, both are fruit, but come in different flavors. There isn't really a measure of how many breaths would make up Endowment, nor how much the Well held of Preservation. Unfortunately, if Returned had the potential to become slivers the process kills them regardless. New question for Brandon: How many breaths makes up Endowment?

 

The Well is still significantly more powerful than a divine breath.  Darnam is right, that analogy is not really accurate.

 

Also, in regards to your "How many breaths make up Endowment?"  Do you mean breath or divine breath because the first is part of a person's soul (as well as a part of their innate investiture) while the latter is a splinter of Endowment.  As for the answer I'd think the magnitude would be so immense as to be incomprehensible.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Well 1 divine breath is enough to reach the 5th heightening, so it is roughly equal to 2000 breaths. We don't really know what the minimum threshold for being a sliver is, if such a thing exists. Rather, the important changes to a sliver probably occur when a person's spiritweb or other such thing is stretched and then brought back closer to normal. These could be similar to becoming a savant and thus have similar effects. Actually, with Returned we have seen some of this; the more breath they hold the better they can use it(although some of this might directly be tied into how breaths work and not other magic systems). About breaths being part of a person's soul, I speculate that this is basically the same as the innate investiture that is used to make kandra and koloss. The power Preservation gave to the people of Scadrial over so many years added up to significantly decrease his opposition to Ruin, which means that said innate investiture can be significant in large amounts.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

We absolutely know what the minimum threshold of investiture to be considered a Sliver is:

 

Interview: Aug 31st, 2011

Reddit AMA 2011 (Verbatim)

 

eri pl ()

Is Jezrien a Sliver?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Jezrien is one of the Heralds, but has never held the power of an entire Shard himself. (So no, not a Sliver.)

 

It seems that basically, someone is considered a Sliver if at one point they had enough investiture to be considered a Shard. The Returned are not Shards, ergo they do not become Slivers when they give up their divine breaths.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Wonko the Sane

[Shardlet he/him]

Except that TLR was never considered a Shard and Vin wasn't until the end of HoA.  Yet both were slivers.

[Scott]

I wasn't sure about the above posts so I looked up the WoB.  Here it is if anyone else is wondering:

 

ZAS678

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

 

I'd suspect that Brandon was sorting through this as he went.  He seems to contradict himself:

If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go.

When he held it he became the Shard for a short time

 

I'm thinking that the arguments both sides have been making are valid, and that the truth isn't as clear-cut as we'd like.  Then again different people will interpret those statements different ways 

 

e/ Found yet another WoB about this:

 

PUCK

"Is the definition of Sliver: Someone who has held a large part of the raw form of a Shard temporarily?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"That is it"

Edited November 25, 2013 by Scott