Theory: Shardblades are Odiumspren

[skaa he/him]

I'm saying that in their default, unactivated state, shardblades don't do anything weird in terms of interactions.

Except Honorblades.

Look, we clearly can't be convinced to agree on something right now. I think we'll just have to wait for Words of Radiance.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Except Honorblades.

 

 

Vanish if the user is dead.  If the user wills to put them down, though, they just stay put, embedded in stone and not at all drilling into the center of the world.

[Shardlet he/him]

Wow, this is like watching a tennis match.

[skaa he/him]

Vanish if the user is dead. If the user wills to put them down, though, they just stay put, embedded in stone and not at all drilling into the center of the world.

Could you please stop with that drilling to the core thing? I never made such a claim. If a spren can mimic one physical attribute (e.g. tangibility... of sorts) then it might be able to mimic other physical attributes, like the act of clattering on the ground (but only if the owner dies, or if the blade is an Honorblade and the owner doesn't die... doesn't sound much like a physical object now, eh?).

If you need to mentally focus on something, or die, or (in the case of Honorblades) not die, for it not to vanish once you let go, that thing is not a Physical object. Physical objects don't have that requirement, Phantom.

Shardblades are at best temporarily quasi-physical Cognitive entities. That's why I thought I could speculate that they are spren. I may be wrong, but I'd wait for something a bit more definitive than what I've seen so far.

I'm sorry if I seem a bit pissed off and sounding like a jerk (both to shardbearer and Phantom Monstrosity). I've already listed the good counter evidence you guys mentioned there in my first post, and I'll still add any that might follow. I appreciate Phantom's superhuman ability to give helpful quotes, but I get frustrated when my point doesn't get across. Perhaps I just need to improve my writing skills or something.

Edited June 16, 2013 by skaa

[Meg]

Or maybe she is feeling the goblet she ends up transforming.

 

I don't believe so as for I'm quite sure that goblet was not near enough to her when she made her sketch of the room, and re-reading that scene I'm under the impression that she (kind of) feels that cryptics and not accidentally touches the goblet.

The creature at the front was reaching too-smooth fingers toward Shallan. Just inches from the right side of the sketchpad.

Oh, Stormfather… Shallan thought, charcoal pencil falling still. The room was empty, yet depicted right in front of her was an image of it crowded full of sleek figures. They were close enough that she should be able to feel them breathing, if they breathed.

Was there a chill in the room? Hesitantly—terrified but unable to stop herself—Shallan dropped her pencil and raised her freehand to the right.

And felt something.

She screamed then, jumping to her feet on her bed, dropping the pad, backing against the wall.

(Emphasizes mine)

 

Can everyone on Roshar see windspren? If yes, then could everyone see Syl's windspren form?

 

I'm fairly sure: yes. 

 

 

The windspren had taken the shape of a young woman—larger spren could change shapes and sizes— ...

... Kaladin frowned at the spirit. Spren were all around; you just ignored them most of the time.

TWoK Chapter 2

 

 

“Deathspren and rotspren hate water. It will keep them away.”

TWoK Chapter 10

 

 

“Lad,” Teft said. “I’ve seen katas before. But never one like that. The way you moved…The speed, the grace…And there was some sort of spren zipping around you, between your sweeps, glowing with a pale light. It was beautiful.”

Rock started. “You could see that?”

“Sure,” Teft said. “Never seen a spren like that. Ask the other men—I saw a few of them pointing.”

TWoK Chapter 27

 

 

And Rock can even see Syl: 

 

“Is no such thing.” Rock glanced at Kaladin’s shoulder. “Besides, there is mafah’liki who always follows you.” The large Horneater bowed his head reverently to Syl, then made a strange gesture with his hand touching his shoulders and then his forehead.

TWoK Chapter 2

 

 

Aside from that I had some thoughts about that gem/flushing-phenomen.

 

 

Another comparison: A gem with an imprisoned flamespren doesn't become a flamespren itself. The physical feeling one gets holding that gem stays the same, one's not touching a flamespren now. 

So the only thing I could think about is, that a spren (for your theory an odiumspren) is imprisoned in a Shardblade, but that seems a bit doubtful for me (though it might be the case as for "nowadays" the artifabrians yet were not able to understand how Shardblades/-plates had been made). 

[skaa he/him]

Another comparison: A gem with an imprisoned flamespren doesn't become a flamespren itself. The physical feeling one gets holding that gem stays the same, one's not touching a flamespren now.

So the only thing I could think about is, that a spren (for your theory an odiumspren) is imprisoned in a Shardblade, but that seems a bit doubtful for me (though it might be the case as for "nowadays" the artifabrians yet were not able to understand how Shardblades/-plates had been made).

Yeah, as I previously stated, the "fabrial" theory of Shardblades is a valid alternative theory. It's just that I don't want to abandon my theory just yet.

By the way, have we seen fabrials that don't require Stormlight? I'm pretty sure Shardblades don't, though they could just be a special type of fabrial powered by something else entirely. It's a possibility.

If you need to mentally focus on something, or die, or (in the case of Honorblades) not die, for it not to vanish once you let go, that thing is not a Physical object. Physical objects don't have that requirement, Phantom.

I apologize for the above statement. We're talking about a world where physical laws are broken on a regular basis by physical objects. It's quite possible that Shardblades are simply enchanted, and are perfectly physical otherwise. I was just speculating that they're not, but I wouldn't complain (too much) if we find out that they are.

Edited June 16, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Keep in mind that when Heralds die they get transported to a dimension of infinite pain and torment.  Presumably the honorblade vanishes because it goes there with them.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I'm sorry Skaa, but this theory, while interesting, really doesn't hold any water. Shardblades act like physical objects with unusual cognitive/spiritual properties, not like cognitive beings with unusually strong physical aspects.

[skaa he/him]

Keep in mind that when Heralds die they get transported to a dimension of infinite pain and torment.  Presumably the honorblade vanishes because it goes there with them.

 

Thanks for reminding me. I never would have thought about that otherwise. It's not like my theory covered that already, or anything.

 

 

I'm sorry Skaa, but this theory, while interesting, really doesn't hold any water. Shardblades act like physical objects with unusual cognitive/spiritual properties, not like cognitive beings with unusually strong physical aspects.

 

Perhaps. Perhaps not. You haven't really argued your case for that, while I already argued my case several times. I failed to convince you, but you never even tried to convince me. I think I'll stick to my theory for a little while longer.

Edited June 16, 2013 by skaa

[Leuthie]

It seems like Shardblades work in reverse to spren. When they aren't bound to a person, they are just swords. Someone picks one up, there's and flash in the gem, and the sword becomes a phantom that disappears when the holder drops it.

[skaa he/him]

It seems like Shardblades work in reverse to spren. When they aren't bound to a person, they are just swords. Someone picks one up, there's and flash in the gem, and the sword becomes a phantom that disappears when the holder drops it.

That's the fabrial theory once again. It would still require a spren that is aligned to the concept of division, though.

I'm trying to figure out if parts 2 and 3 of my theory could survive if Shardblades are fabrials rather than being wholly spren, but I'll wait for the next book before deciding.

I really hope that Words of Radiance will have a definitive answer as to the true nature of Shardblades.

Edited June 17, 2013 by skaa

[Shardlet he/him]

By the way, have we seen fabrials that don't require Stormlight? I'm pretty sure Shardblades don't, though they could just be a special type of fabrial powered by something else entirely. It's a possibility.

 

<asked in absolute earnestness>  Have we seen fabrials that do require stormlight?  I personally do not recall any passages regarding infusion of gems being required for the fabrials we have seen (i.e., spanreeds, Navani's massager thing, and Vstim's proximity sensor).  Anyone got a handle on that? 

[skaa he/him]

<asked in absolute earnestness>  Have we seen fabrials that do require stormlight?  I personally do not recall any passages regarding infusion of gems being required for the fabrials we have seen (i.e., spanreeds, Navani's massager thing, and Vstim's proximity sensor).  Anyone got a handle on that? 

 

 

From the Ars Arcanum:

 

They are powered--like all fabrials--by Stormlight.

 

Again, there might be exceptions (but yeah, this is one of the things that keeps me from accepting that theory).

Edited June 17, 2013 by skaa

[hoser he/him]

<asked in absolute earnestness>  Have we seen fabrials that do require stormlight?  I personally do not recall any passages regarding infusion of gems being required for the fabrials we have seen (i.e., spanreeds, Navani's massager thing, and Vstim's proximity sensor).  Anyone got a handle on that? 

from I-4, describing the detection fabrial:

Removed the large heliodor inside.  The pale yellow gemstone, at least two inches in diameter, ... glowed gently, not as bright as one might expect of such a sizable gem.  ...

She sat back, looking up at the gemstone, watching to see if it grew brighter.  ... Suddenly the heliodor began to pulse with a brighter yellow light. 

But really, all the magic of Roshar that we've seen seems to be powered by stormlight except Shallan's memories, the storm visions/dreams, Shardblades and Cusicesh.  I believe the Shardblades are in contact with the source of the stormlight, so they can draw continually without it being noticeable (spiritual realm?).  The storm visions/dreams happen during highstorms, so they could be powered by the storms.  Cusicesh makes the people nearby feel drained, so it may be drawing power from the people around it. 

Spren may also be inherently magical.  They could be powered by the highstorms, which would explain their lack in Shinovar.  But I think I am just repeating points others have made.  Stopping now.

Edited June 17, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet he/him]

upvotes all around for the quotes.  Thanks.

[EmanEmal he/him]

Ok so I want to say that this theory is cool and explains a lot and I would like to congratulate skaa for creating it. However I am on the shardblades are created by the natal bond when someone becomes a full radiant theory boat and this theory contradicts that quite heavily so I have to argue against it out of principle. Mainly just the shard blades are spren part though.

 

To start, in your theory you drew the link between the scene where measuring spren causes them to become that size to the ten heartbeats summoning the shard blade. The concept here being that the ten heartbeats measure the shardbladespren causing them to waveform collapse into a shard blade. (Note this is my understanding of what you said, please correct me if it is wrong.)

 

I have a lot of problems with this.

1. The heartbeats are dynamic, they vary in length depending on stress levels, they change shape slightly depending on what position the body is in ect, but what the summon is static, the same shard blade every time.
2. The same measurement also produces a thousand something completely different shardblades, not a thousand something different copies of the same shardblade.
3. When the owner of a shard blade dies the shard blade appears immediately, no heartbeats, no measurement, no spren compression, still a shardblade.
4. In the interlude actually measuring the spren dose nothing, the spren is effected when the measurement is recorded, even if that measurement was made up and recorded in the other room. That would mean that to summon your spren shardblade you would have to recorded it somewhere as being ten heartbeats long(or whatever word should be in the place of long).
5. No one uses heartbeats to measure anything. It seems that the spren are effected by measurements because they are effected by how people perceive them and measuring them changes that perception. Measurements have meaning to people and change their understanding of an object in a way that heartbeats do not.
6. Even if people used heartbeats as a form of measurement they can’t possibly measure enough things to define a shardblade. In other instances the measurement of a spren’s size only changes it’s size, the measurement of the time it stays around for only effects the time it stays around for but for the measurement of heartbeats to form the spren into a shardblade it would have to: define that the spren was now in the physical realm, define it’s exact shape as one of over a thousand different shardblades, make shure that it emitted some kind of supper powerfull perpulsion field across all of it’s surfaces accept for it’s edge(another part of your theory), cause it to act as if it were a sword, cut through anything accept for living things in which case it would flip on over the spiritual realm and cut their soul, disappear when dropped or ordered too despite nothing changing in the apparent measurement of the spren that was holding it here to begin with(as in the recorded measurement was not erased), drop when its owner dies, be wet when it appears (somehow), ect ect. All from just ten heartbeats.
7. Because spren are effected by perception passing the shardblade to someone else would cause it to change slightly, but this did not happen when Sedius takes Oathbringer. (This point is kinda shaky)
8. When you count out the ten heartbeats you are measuring something about yourself not the spren.
9. In the past visions Radients seem to be able to summon and unsummon their shard equipment at will. I’m basing this on the instantly appearing/disappearing helmets and the lack of mentioning of pauses before they summoned their shardblades. As far as I noticed that is. (This is supper shaky)
10. Shardplate has no such measurement proses attached to it and the blade and plate seem highly related.(This doesn’t really contradict your theory as a whole as you have them as entirely different, unrelated, things but I thought I’d add it anyway.)

That’s all against just one point of you theory I know, but this is getting kind of long so I’ll just post other stuff later.

[skaa he/him]

Thanks for your comments, EmanEmal! Have an upvote!

Your third point is very good and I'm going to have to put them in the counter evidence list. Instant summoning would require my odiumspren to have more than one kind of "measurement for wavefuntion collapse", and we don't know yet if that's even possible. Your ninth point might also be linked to this issue.

As for the rest, we know from Cusicesh that the wavefunction collapse can be brought about by measuring time. The measurement doesn't have to be about an intrinsic attribute of the spren. And yeah, I think Shardblades and Shardplate have completely different natures and origins, though I'm starting to suspect that Shardplate has been touched by Odium somehow during the Recreance.

Edit: One counter evidence that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Brandon himself seems fond of Shardblades. In the Acknowledgement section of the book, he muses about giving Shardblades to the people who helped him. That dampened my conviction that Shardblades are of Odium, at least a bit, but we'll see.

Edited June 19, 2013 by skaa

[EmanEmal he/him]

Thanks for your comments, EmanEmal! Have an upvote!

 

 And thank you right back, just for being good natured

 

 

So I have a few more unrelated points and a clarification to make here

 

As for the rest, we know from Cusicesh that the wavefunction collapse can be brought about by measuring time.

This is true but it is a measurement of the time he shows up for so it is still a measurement of the spren. I am still a bit confused as to how heartbeats measure the shardspren.

but I don't think this is a big deal. I have some other smaller but interesting points to make.

 

So when a shardblade forms it is wet and people (such as szeth) have held these blades with their bare hands which so it seems safe to assume this water is real because if it was not someone would have noticed, I think. How dose this effect you theory?

 

(And this next one is more an like an interesting thought than counter evidence.)

So earlier you mentioned that the shardblades are like creation spren because they mimic man made objects. Now we know from Dalinar's vision that shards predate the knowledge of things like mining or basements, and in that the Knights radiant had already been formed for some time now, now dark ages are a reasonable possibility due to the constant desolations but because their so old is it possible that shardblades predate swords. Now there is no real evidence of this so I can't call it a good counter point but if it were true what do you think shardblades were like back then, where they still swords and people copied them, or did they take a different form imitating some other weapon, Like a shardclub.

 

So then a few ways in which shardblades are not like spren.

 

All spren, that we have seen, have been attracted to a certain quality as determined by the first half of their name honor, anger, fear, ect. This includes spren that form bonds with people, making them surgebinders. So as a prerequisite to bonding with those spren you have to exhibit those qualities. But a shard blade can be given from person to person at will. Which seems different.  

 

Also bonded spren have all displayed some form of sentience, they talk to the person their bound too ect, shardblades as far as I have seen are completely silent and swordy. Though I guess that it is possible to argue that the thrill is some kind of shardblade influence and thus fulfills this requirement.(I'm not realy convinced by that but it's an argument.)

 

Lastly I would like to offer some supporting evidence that I don't recall being mentioned.

In your theory you say that surgbinding is genetic. I just noticed that Elhokar and his sister both have the same kind of spren following them around which while well within the bounds of coincidence dose support this belief.

[hoser he/him]

In your theory you say that surgbinding is genetic. I just noticed that Elhokar and his sister both have the same kind of spren following them around which while well within the bounds of coincidence dose support this belief.

Are the Cryptics following Jasnah?  Could they be just following Shallan and maybe Taravangian?

[Shardlet he/him]

Yeah.  I think it is premature to say for sure whether or not Jasnah has interactions, especially regular interactions, with the Cryptics.  We surmise that she does since she expresses some degree of familiarity with them to Shallan as well as the fact that Jasnah soulcasts without a functioning soulcaster.  But, while the Cryptics are a means of going to Shadesmar, I think it is likely that they are not the only way on Roshar (I say 'on Roshar' since there must be other ways in from other worlds that don't include Cryptics).  I don't see any evidence of a causal relationship between the Cryptics and soulcasting.  When in Shadesmar, Shallan interacts with the cognitive aspect of the goblet directly rather than via a Cryptic.  The Cryptic does not appear to participate in the actual soulcasting.

 

On a wild tangent, I find the Cryptics to be a substantial puzzle.  Jasnah identifies them as spren.  However, this never rang accurate to me.  If they are spren, they have some very singular characteristics that set them apart from any of the other spren we have encountered. 

 

1) They do not visually manifest in the physical realm in a general fashion.  I expect they can be visibly perceived by certain individuals in particular circumstances (as is the case with Elhokar apparently seeing them in mirrors [hardcover pg. 826]).  But they are not generally apparent to the population at large.  Yes, Syl is principly visible only to Kaladin, I know.

 

2) They are appear to be sentient without any evidence of any significant bonding.  They follow Shallan (perhaps because they recognize that she has a means of perceiving them).  But they communicated with her prior to her giving anything to them.

 

3) They are very distinct in their appearance relative to other spren (whether by choice or by nature I don't know) while being similar to each other.

 

And now for something completely different:

Here is a counter-theory to the present theory (or perhaps a variation on the theory).  I had originally intended to describe the theory here, but I decided that it might be be perceived as hi-jacking the thread. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

2) They are appear to be sentient without any evidence of any significant bonding.  They follow Shallan (perhaps because they recognize that she has a means of perceiving them).  But they communicated with her prior to her giving anything to them.

There are ones that are sentient without bonding.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=755

Rick

1.Are there any other sentient spren like Syl, if not are there any Spren capable of becoming sentient or is she purposefully unique?

2.If so, what are the conditions that must be met for a spren to become sentient?

Brandon Sanderson

Ok Cool.

1. There are other sentient spren.

2. There are many more who could become sentient, there were choices that were made that we will get into that were made by some spren that, that involved-

There were certain choices that were made that influenced this, so yes, that was a very detailed and specific question, you did a good job and so I will give you your answer that there are others like Syl that could become and there are some that are sentient already

 

RICK

Would that also mean that certain spren had an alignment or would some spren be catered toward good or evil or not?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They're creatures of nature and so good and evil aren't as, as big a deal to them. There are some that may be put in that sort of alignments, certainly honorspren are going to be of a certain type, but there are many spren of many different temperaments and they are kind of aligned to their temperament, having to do with who they are and what they are.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Shardlet he/him]

I didn't mean to say that no spren other than Syl are seen to be sentient.  While the quote you cited does affirm that there are other sentient spren other than Syl, it does not qualify any conditions or the nature of that sentience.  For example,

the spren which have bonded with the greatshells which make up the Reshi Islands appear from the Rysn reading to be sentient

.  Now, I suspect that some seed of sentience must be present in order to effect a bond, it is apparent that, at least in the case of Syl, the strength of the sentience is directly tied to the bonding of the spren with another entity. 

 

In other words, Syl is not unique in her sentience, but we have not seen any evidence of spren which have a developed sentience exclusive of a direct and significant bond with another entity except that Jasnah declares the Cryptics to be a kind of spren.  I have little doubt that Jasnah belives her conclusion to be accurate.  But, I have a suspicion that, in this case, she is not.

 

Thank you for the quote, though.  I don't recall seeing it before and it is definitely germaine to my thoughts.

[hoser he/him]

Yeah.  I think it is premature to say for sure whether or not Jasnah has interactions, especially regular interactions, with the Cryptics.  We surmise that she does since she expresses some degree of familiarity with them to Shallan as well as the fact that Jasnah soulcasts without a functioning soulcaster.  But, while the Cryptics are a means of going to Shadesmar, I think it is likely that they are not the only way on Roshar (I say 'on Roshar' since there must be other ways in from other worlds that don't include Cryptics).  I don't see any evidence of a causal relationship between the Cryptics and soulcasting.  When in Shadesmar, Shallan interacts with the cognitive aspect of the goblet directly rather than via a Cryptic.  The Cryptic does not appear to participate in the actual soulcasting.

I assume that Jasnah, as a Radiant of a different order, will interact with a different type of spren.  I think she is familiar with the Cryptics from her scholarship or through communicating with her spren. 

On a wild tangent, I find the Cryptics to be a substantial puzzle.  Jasnah identifies them as spren.  However, this never rang accurate to me.  If they are spren, they have some very singular characteristics that set them apart from any of the other spren we have encountered. 

 

1) They do not visually manifest in the physical realm in a general fashion.  I expect they can be visibly perceived by certain individuals in particular circumstances (as is the case with Elhokar apparently seeing them in mirrors [hardcover pg. 826]).  But they are not generally apparent to the population at large.  Yes, Syl is principly visible only to Kaladin, I know.

 

2) They are appear to be sentient without any evidence of any significant bonding.  They follow Shallan (perhaps because they recognize that she has a means of perceiving them).  But they communicated with her prior to her giving anything to them.

I assume that spren vary in their orientation to the three realms.  Syl is more physical and spiritual, so without the bond, her cognition suffers.  Cryptics and presumably Jasnahspren bind their bonded surgebinders to the cognitive realm and are oriented to that.  I expect they maintain cognitive function without the bond and maybe remember their history.  I assume that Shallan has a bond with just one Cryptic.  What is interesting to me is that they seem to be social. 

 

[skaa he/him]

@EmanEmal: Honestly, I'm starting to move away from this theory and towards the slightly different theory that Shardblades are objects powered by odiumspren inside the gemstone attached to them. That could probably still jive with the rest of my theory regarding Voidbringers and the Knights Radiant, so I'm not too bummed out. It would have its own problems (e.g. how could Shardblades work without Stormlight?), but at least it's less controversial than the "Shardblades are spren" idea.

Edited June 21, 2013 by skaa

[Meg]

@EmanEmal: Honestly, I'm starting to move away from this theory and towards the alternative theory that Shardblades are objects powered by odiumspren inside the gemstone attached to them. That could probably still jive with the rest of my theory. It would have its problems (e.g. how could Shardblades work without Stormlight?), but it would at least be less controversial than the "Shardblades are spren" idea.

 

That's a pity. 

 

 

I found another tidbit that might help my "negotiation" of your OP. But maybe it's kind of helpful, though. Sorry for adding it though you already took a step from that theory. 

 

 

 

Kurkistan: 

4) Could Syl, or any other type of Spren, be seen in a photograph?

Brandon:

4) Excellent question, and I like the way you phrase it. Let's give this one a little more time before I get into the specifics of whether spren are manifesting physically or not.

 

source

 

 

I -- with my no-knowledge about physics -- understand this, as only physically manifested objects can be banned on a photograph. Thus I believe that Shardblades are not spren.