Purpose of the "Philosophy Lesson"

[ccstat he/him]

One turning point in WoK is the lesson Jasnah gives Shallan in practical philosophy. To all appearances, these two protoRadiants are accosted by thugs looking to gain a few spheres through a simple mugging. But this is long before either we or Shallan have an inkling of Roshar's secret society undercurrents. It becomes clear in WoR that Jasnah is (with good reason) actively guarding against attempts on her life by at least one shadowy organization. Mraize later tells Shallan that Jasnah had already killed several members of the Ghostbloods. I wonder, then, whether the obvious premeditation behind the "philosophy lesson" did not have an ulterior purpose. Were the "thugs" actually would-be assassins who were specifically targeting Jasnah?

 

Jasnah tells Shallan that she chose their alleyway based on reports of muggings and murders in the area. This could well be true, and she chose to kill the miscreants to make the city safer. Perhaps it was a favor to kind old Taravangian, who doesn't have the resources to protect his citizens. Perhaps it was more personal, and (as some have speculated) she bears a grudge against people who take advantage of women--past trauma fueling rage against these individuals.

 

Then again, this reasoning that Jasnah presents could be either wholly fabricated or simply incidental to her real purpose. Perhaps she (or Ivory) had identified a tail following her around. Maybe the alley she went to didn't matter, she was just finding a place isolated enough for them to make their move. We don't get to see their bodies after the event, so we don't know if they had ghostblood tattoos or not. Even if they didn't they could have been hired for the hit, like Tyn, or be members of another secret society.

 

Am I missing any evidence that would suggest that the event was simply a mugging-gone-wrong? Or evidence that the thugs had a very specific victim in mind?

[The Honor Spren she/her]

I can see them being part of the Ghost-Bloods. I've had similar suspicions my self.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Interesting thoughts. Upvote for you. Not much evidence for it at this point though.

[maxal she/her]

Whereas these are interesting thoughts, I would state that if she were indeed taking out assassins sent for her, it would lessen her crime from first degree murder to self-defense. However, Brandon has stated her actions were far darker than Adolin which leads me to believe she had done exactly what she told Shallan: purposely targeting a dangerous road while wearing expensive jewelry simply to rout out rugs and kill them. A debatable moral stand-point where she is both wrong and right, depending on which morality you chose to serve, but in any advent, she is more wrong than Adolin was. 

[Alfa he/him]

Kaladin would say, that she gone there on purpose to murder darkeyes, even if the darkeyes were guilty and it was the arrogance of a lighteye that finally caused the incident.

[Blightsong he/him]

One turning point in WoK is the lesson Jasnah gives Shallan in practical philosophy. To all appearances, these two protoRadiants are accosted by thugs looking to gain a few spheres through a simple mugging. But this is long before either we or Shallan have an inkling of Roshar's secret society undercurrents. It becomes clear in WoR that Jasnah is (with good reason) actively guarding against attempts on her life by at least one shadowy organization. Mraize later tells Shallan that Jasnah had already killed several members of the Ghostbloods. I wonder, then, whether the obvious premeditation behind the "philosophy lesson" did not have an ulterior purpose. Were the "thugs" actually would-be assassins who were specifically targeting Jasnah?

 

Jasnah tells Shallan that she chose their alleyway based on reports of muggings and murders in the area. This could well be true, and she chose to kill the miscreants to make the city safer. Perhaps it was a favor to kind old Taravangian, who doesn't have the resources to protect his citizens. Perhaps it was more personal, and (as some have speculated) she bears a grudge against people who take advantage of women--past trauma fueling rage against these individuals.

 

Then again, this reasoning that Jasnah presents could be either wholly fabricated or simply incidental to her real purpose. Perhaps she (or Ivory) had identified a tail following her around. Maybe the alley she went to didn't matter, she was just finding a place isolated enough for them to make their move. We don't get to see their bodies after the event, so we don't know if they had ghostblood tattoos or not. Even if they didn't they could have been hired for the hit, like Tyn, or be members of another secret society.

 

Am I missing any evidence that would suggest that the event was simply a mugging-gone-wrong? Or evidence that the thugs had a very specific victim in mind?

I highly doubt that her killing those guys is what set off the ghostbloods. They had already sent Kabsal to attempt an assassination by then so it must be an event prior.

[DreamEternal]

Whereas these are interesting thoughts, I would state that if she were indeed taking out assassins sent for her, it would lessen her crime from first degree murder to self-defense. However, Brandon has stated her actions were far darker than Adolin which leads me to believe she had done exactly what she told Shallan: purposely targeting a dangerous road while wearing expensive jewelry simply to rout out rugs and kill them. A debatable moral stand-point where she is both wrong and right, depending on which morality you chose to serve, but in any advent, she is more wrong than Adolin was.

Even if they were assassins she could have just turned their weapons into fire or just turned the first to move into a statue and let the others run. Assassins or not, it is equally dark.

EDIT: Storming mobile keyboard.

Edited August 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal she/her]

Even if they were assassins she could have just turned their weapons into fire or just turbed the first to move into a statue and let the others run. Assassins or not, it is equally dark.

 

Good point. I guess motive matters. Her motives were not entirely selfless.

[Arondell]

Even if they were assassins she could have just turned their weapons into fire or just turbed the first to move into a statue and let the others run. Assassins or not, it is equally dark.

 

For some reason this reminded me of Marv from Sin City when he commented on hitmen.  "I love hitmen.  No matter what you do to them you don't feel bad." 

Edited August 7, 2015 by Arondell

[ccstat he/him]

I highly doubt that her killing those guys is what set off the ghostbloods. They had already sent Kabsal to attempt an assassination by then so it must be an event prior.

No, I agree. I'm just wondering if these guys were an additional team sent to take her out, as insurance in case Kabsal's more subtle approach didn't work. (Or sent by another party. As Jasnah tells Shallan, "there are many groups searching for these secrets.")

I am assuming that if these thugs are in fact ghostblood agents, their deaths are just adding to Jasnah's previous body count, and the group is already very annoyed at her.

Re: the morality debate, thank you maxal for bringing up that WoB. Here is the actual quote: (source)

Question

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

For the purposes of this thread, however right or wrong you think Jasnah was, the implication of the quote is that Brandon doesn't view her actions in as "something that needed to be done," which tends to support the "just a regular old mugging" explanation.

I'm not fully convinced yet, and I will keep my eyes open for more evidence either way.

Edited August 8, 2015 by ccstat

[DreamEternal]

Good point. I guess motive matters. Her motives were not entirely selfless.

I meant what she did was equally dark no matter if they were assassins or not, not that what she did was as dark as what Adolin did. I believe what she did was darker. Just making it clear, since in the end I was not sure if it was too ambiguous.

Edited August 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal she/her]

I meant what she did was equally dark no matter if they were assassins or not, not that what she did was as dark as what Adolin did. I believe what she did was darker. Just making it clear, since in the end I was not sure if it was too ambiguous.

 

I understood what you meant  I understood you meant to compare Jasnah murdering assassins with Jasnah murdering random thugs and not Jasnah murdering people and Adolin.

[FirstSelector]

I think there is a worldbuilding lesson in here as well, comparing the restrictiveness of the various Orders.  Kaladin loses command of his powers when he fights Adolin in the training grounds, and Syl is none too pleased with him after.  This makes sense, the Windrunners are committed to protecting others and Kaladin was assaulting Adolin in anger.

 

Jasnah, on the other hand, uses her abilities to terrifying effect.  It demonstrates that the "prodigiously benevolent" Elsecallers can apparently get away with some pretty dark stuff without running afoul of their Words.  If she was acting in direct accordance with her oaths, it makes me wonder what sort of Words enable her actions.

[ccstat he/him]

I got a response about this from the AMA on reddit:

ccstat: Would Mraize have recognized mugshots of the "thugs" who accosted Jasnah and Shallan in WoK?
Brandon: RAFO

So the jury is officially still out on this. That it was worth RAFOing makes me think there may be something going on here, but at the same time he could just be trying to keep us guessing.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Given then 9 or so secret societies at work, it could be any number of them that had a hand in this. After all, *conspiracy-aluminium-hat* it could have been an attempt to lure her out. given the nature of these supposed crimes, it could have provoked something personal within her, or was just simply to get her attention. I mean, given we know Mr T apparently knew of Jasnah's Radiancy to a certain degree, the Diagramist's could have been behind it...or it might just be simply what it appears to be and Jasnah's thinks she is Midnighter

[Alfa he/him]

To add something to ParadoxSpren's last comment: There are not only secret societies, but also secret agents of different kings, highprinces or other high-ranked men; and Jasnah has many enemies among them, she is a heretic.
Wait a bit...I just understood, that her heresy makes her a favored target for the Sons of Honor.

 

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Alfa

[Oudeis he/him]

Jasnah, on the other hand, uses her abilities to terrifying effect.  It demonstrates that the "prodigiously benevolent" Elsecallers can apparently get away with some pretty dark stuff without running afoul of their Words.

 

Actually, do we know this for sure? I know she didn't lose the use of her powers during the attack, the way Kaladin did, but Shallan comments that for a while afterwards she also doesn't see Jasnah Soulcast anything, even less frequently than usual. Is it possible she actually was patching things up with Ivory.

 

In other books, Mistborn most explicitly, relative morality is touched upon. The idea that acts themselves aren't as important as who you are underneath. Two people can both be very, very good men, both in a position which requires a necessary evil. For wholly personal reasons, one person might be able to make his peace with this necessary evil, and move on, while the other simply cannot do it and stay the person he wishes to be.

 

Jasnah believed, through and through, that these men were evil monsters that needed to be killed. Kaladin thought Adolin was an annoying upstart, but if anything on the right side. Deep down, Kaladin knew on some level that he was just using his powers in a spar to show off in a moment of rage. Jasnah was never going to feel any more remorse for killing them than she'd feel for swatting an insect. The real good she did saving even one future victim from their attention was, to her, something which fully justified her actions (alongside things like an academic surety that no other form of justice was legitimately available).

 

I've perhaps rambled a bit here; basically, I don't know that this was a Windrunner/Elsecaller difference. It's possible other Elsecallers would not have been able to do what she did and retain their bond intact. It's possible another Windrunner, acting for different reasons, could have used their secret advantage to beat Adolin senseless in a practice bout and high-fived their Spren on the way out. I fully think that some thing are universal to the Windrunners while not being common to Elsecallers, but that said, not every example is going to be that.

[FirstSelector]

I had forgotten about the aftermath, where Jasnah avoided Soulcasting.  I could definitely see her having to reconcile with Ivory, but at the same time one wonders why she was able to continue after killing the first bandit.  I was originally under the impression that a Surgebinder's powers would vanish almost instantaneously if they directly acted against their Oaths (and would slip away under more passive circumstances).  Now that I am thinking about it, it's likely more subtle but with similar outcomes.

 

It's certianly true that there is an important difference in the human element from both of these situations, but Surgebinding is a particularly strict system that depends on the opinions of the spren.  I would be surprised to learn that there were considerable variation in temperments of a given type of spren.  The practical upshot is that I don't think Knights have very much ability to lie to themselves to accomplish unsavory goals.  At least, without losing their powers.

 

You bring up good points, and I think it will be exciting to see the differences between Orders and members of a given Order.

[Patrick Star]

I hope that they were assassins.  Because otherwise, Jasnah just dealt out the death penalty for a mugging.  A bit of an overreaction, I'd say.

[Oudeis he/him]

I was originally under the impression that a Surgebinder's powers would vanish almost instantaneously if they directly acted against their Oaths (and would slip away under more passive circumstances).  Now that I am thinking about it, it's likely more subtle but with similar outcomes.

 

...

 

The practical upshot is that I don't think Knights have very much ability to lie to themselves to accomplish unsavory goals.  At least, without losing their powers.

 

First part: We do have very few examples, the most concrete one being when his powers instantly (but temporarily) left him at the spar with Adolin. Later, they were getting weaker, but the actual break came, almost ironically, when he actually did successfully use his powers out on the Plains.

 

My head!canon is this. The bond is controlled from both ends. I think Kaladin's decision to act without honor weakened the bond; Syl exercised a conscious decision to weaken the bond further during that moment, revoking Kaladin's powers. This being her decision, it was easy enough to reverse shortly thereafter. So, while a spren, once Bonded, might not have the ability to retract the Surges on a simple whim, they do have some capacity to strengthen or weaken it, and Kal's actions gave Syl an opportunity.

 

I see the moment as he fell into the chasm as the opposite. His broken promise had weakened the bond immensely, but not severed it, not yet. Then he would have died without the power. Syl made the opposite decision at this point, forcing the bond open wider than it could sustain. In its weakened state, this surge of power was enough to break the bond, until Kal later repaired it.

 

For the second part: To be clear, and not sure if this is what you're saying, I don't think any Knight can simply lie to himself to get over things. If anything, that's what Kal was doing, and it clearly didn't work. He convinced himself that he was "protecting" the people of Alethkar by removing an incompetent chull as its King. Deep down, I'm not going to say he knew he was lying, I'm just saying that his own personal code of honor would never accept such an act, regardless of the circumstances. He was lying to himself, and it didn't work. The bond weakened all the same.

 

By contrast, I don't think Jasnah was lying to herself. In a purely rational way, she fully understood the implications of her actions, and in a very solid way accepted them as necessary.

 

Mistborn spoilers.

In Well of Ascension, Elend had written into the charter of the land that he could be replaced, and he gave enormous powers to the Council. Sazed speaks to him of this, and he ruminates on it in Hero of Ages, where he has given up and is simply conquering the world. By then, he accepts it. Without the experience he went through, he could not have simply assumed conquering was the way to go. Deep down, he truly believed that giving people power and responsibility was the proper course of action. Like Dalinar, he eventually grows to understand that a population cannot go from tyranny to a republic overnight, especially not during a time of such unrest. He's not compromising his morals or doing something he knows is wrong. He's simply evolved to understand that the way he acts now is the right way. I suspect that if Elend were a Bondsmith, his Nahel bond would never weaken throughout the series. If he'd lied to keep his throne, or if he'd used Vin as a threat against Penrod at the time, that would have been one thing. But there is no one absolute objective moral code. Elend had one belief, which experience eventually showed him was mistaken and was replaced with a very different belief. At no point in the transition was Elend ever untrue to his own ideals.

 

I myself am capable of dissociation to a degree I'm not very proud of. I do not believe this disqualifies me from being a good person, as I typically only avail myself of the capacity in crisis situations. That said, picture me as a king versus Kaladin as a king. In certain crisis situations, where tough decisions have to be made, we might both make a call to pull back our armies and abandon innocent villagers to an invader, in order to protect most of our subjects. I would regret the necessity and it would be with a heavy heart, but I think I could make such a call without feeling as though I had forsaken a Nahel oath. Kaladin, son of a surgeon, the boy who can't divest his emotions when it comes to his patients, would probably be rational enough to make that decision, but he would definitely feel as though he'd betrayed his Oath. Maybe not to the point of breaking his bond, but it would be under strain. Two Windrunners, same Oath, neither lying to themselves, just two different unique perspectives coming to two different outcomes.

 

I hope that they were assassins.  Because otherwise, Jasnah just dealt out the death penalty for a mugging.  A bit of an overreaction, I'd say.

 

Uh... in the book, it's flat-out stated they are significantly worse than muggers. They are at the least murderers. It is implied with the subtlety of a ton of bricks that they are guilty of far darker crimes even than that. Her actions may have skipped due process, but the punishment is absolutely no worse than what they would almost certainly have been sentenced to.

 

Unless you want to get into the "cruel and unusual" aspect in case any of the violent criminals happened to be a devout Vorin who would have gone through undue anguish at being killed with what they believed to be a holy relic, but even if Kharbranth is atypical enough to have a cruel and unusual clause, it strains credulity to think these sociopaths are legitimately devout to the extent that they would suffer undue hardships at the psychological trauma of being killed with the equivalent of a tabernacle.

[Arondell]

Uh... in the book, it's flat-out stated they are significantly worse than muggers. They are at the least murderers. It is implied with the subtlety of a ton of bricks that they are guilty of far darker crimes even than that. Her actions may have skipped due process, but the punishment is absolutely no worse than what they would almost certainly have been sentenced to.

 

This is why I have never had much issue with Jasnah's actions in this matter.  To me it seems that most of the objections don't seem to be about whether or not these people deserved what they got so much as how Jasnah went about doing it.  Since it is also made clear that the normal methods of law enforcement were being circumvented I have no objections to Jasnah's actions or methods under the circumstances in evidence.

[gbazz4 he/him]

I just reread this passage two nights ago when continuing my WOK reread. I never thought this was in any way related to secret societies or assassins. It seemed to me to be what it appeared to be in the book. Jasnah's explanation of what they were doing in the alley seemed pretty straightforward but i might not be catching something.

""Is it wise to be showing your wealth like that, Brightness?" Shallan said, speaking softly and glancing about her.

"No," Jasnah said. "It is most certainly not. Particularly not here. You see, this street has gained a particular reputation lately. On three separate occasions during the last two months, theatergoers who chose this route to the main road were accosted by footpads. in each case, the people were murdered."

Shallan felt herself grow pale.

"The city watch," Jasnah said, "has done nothing. Taravangian has sent them several pointed reprimands, but the captain of the watch is cousin to a very influential light eyes in the city, and Taravangian is not a terribly powerful king. Some suspect that there is more going on, that the footpads might be bribing the watch. The politics of it are irrelevant at the moment, as you can see, no members of the watch are guarding the place, despite its reputation."

- WOK, Chapter 36, Page 660.

 

To me it always seemed clear this was a pattern of activity by thugs who were murdering people. I think it would be a very long shot assassination attempt to murder 3 groups with the hope Jasnah would try to deal with it on her own since the local law enforcement wasn't dealing with it. She is not a citizen of Kharbranth,and Taravangian didn't ask her to do it, why would she need to act? Also, if it was an assassination attempt, and they specifically wanted to attack Jasnah knowing she can soulcast, why wouldn't they have ranged weapons to attack her with? They had knives (page 662). Why would they also get surprised and panic by her soulcasting and run if they knew who she was and what she could do? 

 

It is interesting to consider the difference this might show between elsecallers and windrunners. But i am not sure it is indicative of anything against the oaths. She had a suspicion that she could get attacked there but it wasn't guaranteed. She defended herself and Shallan against an unprovoked attack (meaning just being there was not provoking like say slapping the guys or stealing from them would be provoking). I think that is why she was able to soulcast. If Kaladin was patrolling an area and was attacked do we think he could not defend himself and use his powers? I see it the same way. Also i think she was able to kill the ones who ran away to protect others who could be attacked should they escape., they were not innocents which i think could have conflicted with the first ideal, they were murderers. When Kaladin attacked Adolin on the training ground he wasn't defending himself or anyone he was trying to use his surges to best Adolin. Also when he lost his surges he had not adhered to his oath's to defend the king. Once he defended him against a known attack and said the words he gained them back and presumably could have used them against Moash should he have wanted to. I don't recall anything from that encounter that would have suggested he couldn't. So i think it is the same with Jasnah, she was attacked and was protecting herself and Shallan even if she was suspicious of possibly being attacked. Therefore to me it was not a violation of any oaths.

[maxal she/her]

With Radiants, what matters is not the action or the end result but the intend. Kaladin could have uprooted known criminals with the intend of killing them because he would have been killing to protect, which is against his oaths. He can only kill when confronted by direct aggression, but he cannot be the investigator. Jasnah can apparently find the criminals, prompted them into action before slaying them: there is not questions as to what Jasnah intended to do. She was protecting herself, she created this occasion. Without her direct action, she would have never been in danger. There is also no question as to what Kaladin intended to do when he confronted Adolin: he wanted to use his powers to show-of the princeling, not a valid reason for a Windrunner.

 

So intend rules, the journey, not the end result. Why are you doing it little Radiant?

[Numuhuku he/him]

I think part of it was Jasnah testing her ward. Shallan spending time with her meant an increased chance she might get involved in the cloak and dagger stuff Jasnah was up to. I think perhaps in her mind it'd be useful to try to inoculate Shallan ahead of time to that kind of violence, and get her thinking about the moral implications of it. If Shallan can't handle the incident with the foot pads, then it's probably better to scare her off before she gets involved in anything truly sinister. 

 

With Radiants, what matters is not the action or the end result but the intend. Kaladin could have uprooted known criminals with the intend of killing them because he would have been killing to protect, which is against his oaths. He can only kill when confronted by direct aggression, but he cannot be the investigator. 

You might be drawing too hard of a line on that. By that logic, it wouldn't have been appropriate for Kaladin to accept Dalinar's order to patrol the roads leading to the shattered plains. After-all. In that capacity he wouldn't just be defending people actively being attacked. He'd also be expected to pursue and capture/kill any bandit parties he came across, even if they're not hurting anyone at that instant. By the strictest logic, wouldn't Kaladin be the aggressor in that situation? Is the fact that the bandits will attack innocent people in the future (and have done so in the past) an insufficient justification to pursue them?

 

I think the Windrunners position on matters like this is a bit more nuanced than a strict legalistic "never throw the first punch" rule. Similarly, the Elsecallers don't necessarily follow the Windrunners own exact interpretation of honorable conduct.