How long is a solar year in Roshar?

[Nehex he/him]

Here on earth, the year is measured by how long it takes our planet to make one trip around the sun. On Roshar, the year is measured by the Highstorm cycle; 1000 days of 10 10-week months. This would imply that the characters in the Stormlight Archive are older than we might assume given the number of years they've lived. Let's take Shallan for example: In WoR, she says she's 17 years old, meaning she's been alive for roughly 17,000 days. If we were to convert that into earth time, that would mean that Shallan is about 46 earth-years old.

[DreamEternal]

Actualy, Rosharian eyears are of 500 days( two years for a full weeping circle). And their days are shorter, of about 20 hours, althought that infornation is not in the books.

[Alfa he/him]

it is assumed, that a rosharan year is about 1,1 years on earth, making shallan around 19 years old.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Urgh, can't find the WoB for this anywhere! >_<

But yeah, Kaladin would be, like, 23 over here.

[maxal she/her]

Oh gee, the age discussion. I hate it. The "supposed age" of character due to the rotation of Roshar do not fit both the characters physical and psychological description. 

 

No way Kaladin is 23 years old and no way Adolin is one hair above 23 years old (which I still think is too old for him) and no way Shallan is nearing on 20 and no way Renarin is above 20 and no way LIFT who passes for a 10 years old is above 15 and I could go on and on and on for ages.

 

These ages do not work. They simply don't and they basically ruin the characters or at least they do for me. So if the Roshar years length is different, then I assume the physical/psychological development of character followed.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Pulse is right; I'm not entirely sure where, however I distinctly remember it being mentioned (maybe in WoR?) that every other year is either "heavy" or "light" (heavy years have Highstorms during the Weeping, light do not), and that age is actually measured in Weepings rather how long it takes for Roshar to orbit its sun. Realistically, it is impossible for any other planet to measure time / age the exact same as us (which is a personal pet peeve of mine in fantasy). I'm unsure why Maxal is so vehement towards this discussion. In the case of Kaladin I think it makes a lot of sense especially. Considering how efficient he is in combat (disregarding Stormlight, since I believe Mr. Sanderson said either in the books or out of them that it doesn't give him his skill with a spear, only enhances what skills he already has), it makes more sense that he is 23 rather than a teenager. We already know he's one-in-a-million since he managed to attract an Honorspren in the first place, but to say someone that young has accomplished all the things he has in the span of the books is fairly ridiculous. As for Lift, I remember a quote along the lines of she only refers to herself as 10 because she thinks any number higher than she can count on her fingers is bad luck, and she is actually several years older. All tangents aside...

 

Ultimately the solar year doesn't really matter, unless the graviational pull of the sun in relation to the distance/location of the world in orbit actually has an effect on the Highstorms, and therefore the weepings align accordingly. Honestly I've always wondered if the Highstorms always plagued Roshar or if they came into being along with the Stormfather (or perhaps another event). Could anyone tell me if this has been answered by Mr. Sanderson already?

Edited August 8, 2015 by Alvom

[maxal she/her]

There are many reasons I am against it and one of those is it breaks canon. 

 

Kaladin is supposed to be abnormally good for his age. People are supposed to assume he is much older than he truly is, hence the fact most readers have no issues seeing him as a 23 years old guy as opposed to a 20 years old guy. However, Kaladin's youth is supposed to be apparent when you look at him from up close, then you see this is a very young man and he does behave the part in many occurrences. Let's not also forget aging Kaladin now also ages him before. His story arc with Lirin loses it senses he was 17-18 instead of 15. His entire interaction with Laral becomes ridicule if he wonders why physically aged 15 years old Laral hides her hand, but it makes complete sense for him to have the though on 12 years old Laral about to enter puberty.

 

Adolin is physically described as looking very youthful. You do not use youthful on a man in his mid to late twenties because the truth of aging is nearly all men will lose their boyish look by the time they get 22-23 to the latest. The fact Adolin is still described as looking very young tells me he cannot have reached that point yet. Men physicals change A LOT in their early twenties so yes 2 years difference are huge. I look back at pictures of my husband back then and WOW. He aged so much. Myself? Not that much, a few signs here and there, but it does not show as much. Just his facial features changed a lot since... So based on Adolin's physical description, he can't be anywhere near his mid-twenties. We could also highlight is apparent immaturity which makes sense on a man in his early twenties but on in man in his late twenties: the feeling is not the same. He then becomes pathetic. Not to mention Dalinar still treats him as a child: he would never do it if his son was nearing his thirties.... So aging Adolin literally ruins and destroys the character. 

 

Shallan is supposed to be a naive teenager. Age her and she no longer is a teenager, but a young woman. It destroys all the flashbacks of teenage Shallan we have were she indeed behave like a 14 years old and NOT like a 17 years old.

 

Renarin is supposed to look like a child. With or without physical built, nobody would take him for such he is were pass his twenties. He is a very young looking 19 years old kid. Put him at 22 and it just does not work....

 

Lift is 13 and she pretends to be 10. If she physically were 15, NOBODY would believer her because puberty happens. 15 years old cannot pass for 10 years old. They just can't. They have breasts and curves. So no. Big no.

 

This is only a very short list as to why the ages do not work. I think it is an oversight from Brandon's team. Somebody pointed out the years were longer on Roshar, Brandon agreed, but he failed to acknowledged how it destroyed his characters. They can't be aged. The story does not work if they are.

[Emerald101 he/him]

--snip--

Actually, the Nahel bond offers additional abilities besides stormlight and surges, ones that don't consume stormlight. Although it's not 100% confirmed, many people (myself included) believe that Kaladin's fighting proficiency, as well as Shallan's memory and drawing, are a result of these "passive" abilities.

 

--snip--

 

Keep in mind that every Rosharan Day is shorter, so the aging effect may not be what you think.

[maxal she/her]

 

Keep in mind that every Rosharan Day is shorter, so the aging effect may not be what you think.

 

The aging effect has been widely discussed and it came to the conclusion the characters are supposed to be older than we think. For me, this is a huge mistake as I do think Brandon originally wrote the story with the ages we know, but world building demanded the years length were different, so he agreed to it, but everybody failed to notice how it did not fit the written characters. 

 

In fact, I would say 99.99% of readers have no issues with it, but I am seriously disturbed by it. A late-twenties character is not the same as an early twenties one. I am supposed to read about a bunch of young people coming to an age. It kind of loses it purposes if they already are there, but are just hugely immature because reasons. It also widen the age gap between the characters which serves no purpose. Why should Adolin be so much older than everyone else? Why should Shallan be so much younger than everyone else? It just not the same story anymore.

 

Unfortunately, I know full well the age thing is canon. It has been confirmed. So yes, they are this old, but it destroys the story so much for me I am forced to ignore it and to blame the writing team for the misstep. The text at hand calls for younger people and whereas many people will state 30 and 20, it is the same thing: it just isn't. 

 

Therefore, each time the subject is brought on, I cringe as I am remembered my favorite characters are years older than I think and they just don't fit. They are pathetic losers and I am lonely in still thinking them being their book age.

Edited August 8, 2015 by maxal

[Arondell]

Your not doing well on the ignoring. 

[DreamEternal]

Uh, Rosharan years are only 10% longer. Not sure where you pulled the Kaladin jumping from 19-20 to 23 from, Honorspren

Edited August 8, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal she/her]

Your not doing well on the ignoring. 

 

Nobody's perfect 

 

 

Uh, Rosharan years are only 10% longer. Not sure where you pulled the Kaladin jumping from 19 to 23 from, Maxal

 

Oh it comes from someone asking Brandon how old would Kaladin be and he said 23. I have no idea which is the right conversion formula it depends on who you talk to, but they are older and it does not make sense. Just think of puberty: you can't delay puberty. It is rock solid argument.

[Arondell]

I believe that Kaladin mentions he has hit his twentieth birthday in Words of Radiance.  So that would make him about 22 Earth years of age.

[RenegadeShroom]

Maxal, your ages are somewhat off. It's less egregious than you seem to think; ((character's age) x 1.1)

 

With that in mind, in order; Lift is fourteen, flashback!Shallan is fifteen, flashback!Kaladin is sixteen, Shallan is eighteen, Kaladin and Renarin are twenty-one, and Adolin is twenty-five. I would also point out in your argument for Lift, the "breasts and curves" aspect is entirely dependent on the individual.

 

Personally, I don't think it ruins anything. I don't recall Lift passing for a ten year old, for one thing. I don't really see why Shallan couldn't be naive if she's eighteen -- her circumstances remain the same, after all -- and twenty one is still young. I don't believe Renarin is supposed to look childlike, and I completely fail to understand why Adolin being only two years older would utterly destroy his character. In the flashbacks, they're still teenagers who are roughly the same age.

[Arondell]

To me it seems fairly obvious that the humans of Roshar have a number of odd biological traits.  I have never seen any kind of verification of this but I suspect that Rosharan life spans are longer then human normal.  Cultivation's influence perhaps?

 

Edit : Though most of the cases that cause me to wonder about this also have stormlight possibly skewing the issue.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Arondell

[maxal she/her]

 

Maxal, your ages are somewhat off. It's less egregious than you seem to think; ((character's age) x 1.1)

 

With that in mind, in order; Lift is fourteen, flashback!Shallan is fifteen, flashback!Kaladin is sixteen, Shallan is eighteen, Kaladin and Renarin are twenty-one, and Adolin is twenty-five. I would also point out in your argument for Lift, the "breasts and curves" aspect is entirely dependent on the individual.

 

Personally, I don't think it ruins anything. I don't recall Lift passing for a ten year old, for one thing. I don't really see why Shallan couldn't be naive if she's eighteen -- her circumstances remain the same, after all -- and twenty one is still young. I don't believe Renarin is supposed to look childlike, and I completely fail to understand why Adolin being only two years older would utterly destroy his character. In the flashbacks, they're still teenagers who are roughly the same age.

 

Well.... 14 years old in beyond puberty: girls that age don't look like a 10 years old. Nobody would believe her. Puberty is kind of a no way back trip.

 

Renarin is described as looking much younger than his age... You can look as young as your aging allows you to. For instance, I may delude myself into thinking I still look as if I were 20, but I don't.

 

Adolin does not work at 25. No 25 years old men would be described as youthful, nobody would refer to them as "lad" or "boy". It just does not work. It also makes him way older than the other characters which serves no purpose. Why he is so much older? His whole friendship with Kaladin becomes kind of weird if his 25 and Kaladin is 21... The age difference is... big for this age range. Adolin would never feel any rivalry with someone so much younger than him. Already, I think Adolin does not work so well with his book age, so this new age kind of kill the character. His whole behavior also speaks of a younger man. Counter-argument: he is immature. Immature, yes, but age him and he becomes a pathetic loser, like Elhokar: a mid-twenties guy who is stuck dating teenagers because nobody his age wants him... So... Kind of a deal breaker for me. I just can't. 

 

Edit: It does not destroy characters such as Shallan so to speak, but it completely ruins Adolin. It ages him by 2 years whereas everyone else ages by 1 years. It makes him much older than his book physical description calls for... It just ruins the whole thing, but it's OK. This is not the first time I raise this issue: nobody feels the same but me. However, I HAVE to ignore it, because if I don't Adolin no longer is a viable character. Others are diminish, but Adolin is ruined.

Edited August 8, 2015 by maxal

[Amanuensis he/him]

 

You do not use youthful on a man in his mid to late twenties because the truth of aging is nearly all men will lose their boyish look by the time they get 22-23 to the latest. The fact Adolin is still described as looking very young tells me he cannot have reached that point yet. Men physicals change A LOT in their early twenties so yes 2 years difference are huge. 

 

I think my perspective on that is skewed because I am nearing my 23rd birthday and still am ridiculed for looking like a 15 year old. In any case, I see where you're coming from. I personally am unaffected by this, because even if Rosharian's are referred to as humans, the fact is they're not. Even if they were created by a Shard to be humans originally, I highly doubt it could create a 1:1 carbon copy; likely a lot of physical / developmental characteristics were either altered accidently or intentionally in order to ensure the species could survive in this particular environment.

[Kipper]

Maxal, are you sure that the old age "was confirmed?"

I could have sworn I saw a WoB that involved some handwavium somewhere, such that the mentioned ages are a direct parallel to Earth.

Maybe I didn't. If someone does have a WoB on this, that would be fantastic.

[maxal she/her]

 

 

 

I think my perspective on that is skewed because I am nearing my 23rd birthday and still am ridiculed for looking like a 15 year old. In any case, I see where you're coming from. I personally am unaffected by this, because even if Rosharian's are referred to as humans, the fact is they're not. Even if they were created by a Shard to be humans originally, I highly doubt it could create a 1:1 carbon copy; likely a lot of physical / developmental characteristics were either altered accidently or intentionally in order to ensure the species could survive in this particular environment.

 

 

Well, I do think me being a decade older does give me a different perspective. I had a much harder time reading people's age when I was younger. I was not so bothered by 30 years old actor portraying teenagers or young adults. Now, I cringe because I do see the difference and yes, there is one. For instance, I caught re-runs of Back to the Future just yesterday. Micheal J Fox looks much older than 17 years old Marty McFly. He was 24 and I thought he was not all that believable to play a 17 years old. He was not bad, but.... 

 

So 25 years old Adolin is just too old. Looking back at pictures from my husband he changed so much in between 21 and 25, but you don't realize this until several years later. 25 years old is the age at which men start to lose their hair, people start graying (and yes many people get grey hair in their twenties), men facial features evolves a lot in their early twenties.. The boyish look only last so long and Adolin can't have reached 25 years and still retain it.

 

 

Maxal, are you sure that the old age "was confirmed?"

I could have sworn I saw a WoB that involved some handwavium somewhere, such that the mentioned ages are a direct parallel to Earth.

Maybe I didn't. If someone does have a WoB on this, that would be fantastic.

 

Which old age? I recall a WoB where someone asked Brandon about Kaladin's age on Earth and he said 23. In any advent, maybe the 23 was off, but the fact the ages are different is confirmed. The difference thus is Adolin being mid or late twenties as opposed to early twenties. Neither of the first choices work, in my opinion, but again, I am alone in my ship. Nobody sees the same issue I see.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I think that the societal constructs of Alethi and other Rosharan nations are what decide the maturity of individuals. They would base their constructs on their own perception of years, not ours. So if their coming of age happens at 18 Rosharan years, it doesn't matter if that would be 18, 12, or 50 of our own years; it's what they've built up and so people fit themselves into the constructs around them. In our own world, a little more than a hundred years ago, 14 year old girls were married off and had three kids before their 18th birthday. They were forced to grow up quickly. Nowadays, I can't pinpoint a single 14 year old that is mature and ready enough for adulthood, marriage and parenthood. We now grow up slower than we did a couple hundred years ago because it isn't necessary. On Roshar, their societies could have changed from ours so that age isn't relative to ours.

 

I understand the biological argument that comes up against this, but first off, this is an entirely different planet with a different rotation, magic, less gravity, completely different flora and fauna, and much more. It's not much of a stretch to think that the biology of the humans on these planets is different from our own. In fact, I think it'll be interesting to see if the humans from Sel, Scadrial, and Roshar are physically different concerning age, but that's not something we'll see until the cosmere starts connecting a lot more. 

[maxal she/her]

I think that the societal constructs of Alethi and other Rosharan nations are what decide the maturity of individuals. They would base their constructs on their own perception of years, not ours. So if their coming of age happens at 18 Rosharan years, it doesn't matter if that would be 18, 12, or 50 of our own years; it's what they've built up and so people fit themselves into the constructs around them. In our own world, a little more than a hundred years ago, 14 year old girls were married off and had three kids before their 18th birthday. They were forced to grow up quickly. Nowadays, I can't pinpoint a single 14 year old that is mature and ready enough for adulthood, marriage and parenthood. We now grow up slower than we did a couple hundred years ago because it isn't necessary. On Roshar, their societies could have changed from ours so that age isn't relative to ours.

 

I understand the biological argument that comes up against this, but first off, this is an entirely different planet with a different rotation, magic, less gravity, completely different flora and fauna, and much more. It's not much of a stretch to think that the biology of the humans on these planets is different from our own. In fact, I think it'll be interesting to see if the humans from Sel, Scadrial, and Roshar are physically different concerning age, but that's not something we'll see until the cosmere starts connecting a lot more. 

 

THIS, is one of the best argument I have read. I would back it up within the split of a second if only Brandon had not confirmed the characters were indeed older........... He could just have said, different world, different rule, take the book age, but no. He confirmed Kaladin was much older than his book age, which alternatively aged everyone else. If I recall properly, the original question came from someone asking about Kaladin's prowess not being believable considering his age....

 

Sigh. 

 

In only I did not have this WoB to haunt me, I would not make such a big deal out of it, but I can't ignore WoB... If Brandon says it, then it is true and canon is broken, well for me it is.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

THIS, is one of the best argument I have read. I would back it up within the split of a second if only Brandon had not confirmed the characters were indeed older........... He could just have said, different world, different rule, take the book age, but no. He confirmed Kaladin was much older than his book age, which alternatively aged everyone else. If I recall properly, the original question came from someone asking about Kaladin's prowess not being believable considering his age....

 

Sigh. 

 

In only I did not have this WoB to haunt me, I would not make such a big deal out of it, but I can't ignore WoB... If Brandon says it, then it is true and canon is broken, well for me it is.

Well, thanks. 

 

A big part of what I was saying though, is that Kaladin being 23 Earth-years old is besides the point. He's "19-20ish" according to Roshar society and biology. Brandon says that he treats his works like Tolkien did, as if they are being translated. So even if Kaladin is really 23 on Roshar, it's translated to 19-20 in the book for a modern Earth audience.

[maxal she/her]

Well, thanks. 

 

A big part of what I was saying though, is that Kaladin being 23 Earth-years old is besides the point. He's "19-20ish" according to Roshar society and biology. Brandon says that he treats his works like Tolkien did, as if they are being translated. So even if Kaladin is really 23 on Roshar, it's translated to 19-20 in the book for a modern Earth audience.

 

But, if you are right, why did Brandon state Kaladin would be 23 Earth years old to acknowledge his skill? Gee, I am so mixed up with this issue. I wish I had my personal automatic WoB generator to get answers for this 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

But, if you are right, why did Brandon state Kaladin would be 23 Earth years old to acknowledge his skill? Gee, I am so mixed up with this issue. I wish I had my personal automatic WoB generator to get answers for this 

 

I think I found the WoB. Is this the right one:

 

OUTIS

Kaladin is a lot younger than his knowledge and training levels are? (Can't make out the rest)

BRANDON SANDERSON

You've got to keep two things in mind. He's led a very hard life which has aged him experience-wise prematurely, and also Roshar years are longer than ours, so when in this book they say he's 19, he's not actually 19, he's more like, I can't remember the exact equation, he's like 23 or something like that.

I still maintain my opinion. I think that Brandon's just showing what the difference mathematically is between us and them. He's saying also that Kaladin's life was hard enough to force experience on him, which is what happened in our society a hundred years ago as well.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Mailliw73

[maxal she/her]

 

I think I found the WoB. Is this the right one:

 

I still maintain my opinion. I think that Brandon's just showing what the difference mathematically is between us and them. He's saying also that Kaladin's life was hard enough to force experience on him, which is what happened in our society a hundred years ago as well.

 

YES.

 

That was the one I was referring to. I sincerely hope you are right as it would quell my internal dilemma over it. I personally have no issues believing Kaladin's hard life made him age faster: I thought he was rather believable as a 20 years old that looks/behaves as an older person, while having his true age shine at times where his life-hardened experience has not compensated.

 

I have no issues into believing the characters are indeed meant to look the Earth equivalent of their book age while being mathematically older. I have no issues believing Alethi do not socially age the same way we do, though I would think they age faster than us as they do get married very young.

Edited August 8, 2015 by maxal