Random Stuff II

[Zathoth]

Sometimes I forget how lucky I am that my entire family are cynical introverts who are way too nice... I do have some philosophical arguments with my father sometimes, but Im pretty sure he enjoys them.

[+Slowswift he/him]

Heh. I'm 25 and I don't share my political or religious views with my parents. The last time I spoke out in disagreement with something my mom said, she read me the riot act and later asked me "Were you just disagreeing with me because you know I'm right?" That was two years ago.

...what's the Riot Act?

EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up.

EDIT again: Thanks, Twi! Btw, your parents suck at their job.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Slowswift

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

...what's the Riot Act?

It's not an actual act or even something that's written down. It's more an expression meaning "s/he got really mad and yelled/lectured for a while."

[Kobold King he/him]

...what's the Riot Act?

EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up.

EDIT again: Thanks, Twi! Btw, your parents suck at their job.

 

 

 

 

Sorry you have to deal with this sort of thing, Lark and Twi.

[WayneSpren he/him]

This crazy thread has finally been completely and utterly derailed by the Reckoners RPG. I always knew this day would come.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

EDIT again: Thanks, Twi! Btw, your parents suck at their job.

They've been nicer toward me lately--getting a long lecture where they rant about my character flaws is a rarity now--but that just means they've transferred all of their lecturing energies to my eleven-year-old sister.

And, in fairness, my mom did say last night that she and my dad would be willing to help me get a pug, if I need the help. But I'm afraid to think of them being nicer and more helpful toward me as them turning over a new leaf, because of how they treat my sister.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Oh, I have some tricks up my sleeve to combat this invasion! They mostly involve dinosaurs, lasers and rock n' roll!

[Surgebound Rainspren he/him]

Oh, I have some tricks up my sleeve to combat this invasion! They mostly involve dinosaurs, lasers and rock n' roll!

If your plan doesn't include said Dinosaurs playing bass guitars with head mounted lasers I will be very disappointed.   

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Ha! Siri (iPhone, not Warbreaker) calls me "The Honor Spren" instead of Maggie, now!

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Ha! Siri (iPhone, not Warbreaker) calls me "The Honor Spren" instead of Maggie, now!

Phase 1 in Operation Make Everything Just a Little More Cosmere: complete.

[Kipper]

um yeah and that issue is my father he's a complete jerk to everyone and always rants about politics and how liberals are ruining the country and it makes my stomach churn so badly because I am, in fact, a liberal.

He also spews racist hate and I just... Can't... Stand it.

And when I tell him to stop he gives me some crap like "you read that on the internet" or "stop believing everything you hear" or "you're young and stupid stop"

I'm somewhat the same way. My parents are hardcore conservatives, and while I lean conservative some of the time, I take positions on certain issues that are more liberal. They object in the same way your parents do, by saying that I just "heard it on the Internet" or some such thing. Hard to combat, these arguments are, because they firmly believe them. The most effective way to combat this:

Next time they say that your views are not your own, come back with "Well you just get your views by parroting back what Fox News says!" Or whatever; for liberals, use MSNBC; the point is that you accuse them of just following the herd. Be as confrontational as you feel comfortable with. When they hotly deny this, point out to them that this is exactly the same argument as they just used on you. You probably get it from there. The most important point is to deescalate fast and not get hugely emotional and angry about it. Try to understand that they just say these things because they believe them, and don't mean to personally offend you.

[Kestrel she/her]

Yeah, I know. Its just. Gah. I just got so annoyed at dinner like. Because you turn on the news and politics and ~election~

On a side note, I have animation uil coming up in January and I'm pumped about to get started.

Also my college english class is letting us do a digital narrative for that too and I have three weeks to make an animation for it if I want to. Which I will. I'm already storyboarding and the project hasn't even been assigned. Professor said I could do an animation tho so I'm doing it

3 weeks for 3 minutes let's GO get HYPE

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

um yeah and that issue is my father he's a complete jerk to everyone and always rants about politics and how liberals are ruining the country and it makes my stomach churn so badly because I am, in fact, a liberal.

He also spews racist hate and I just... Can't... Stand it.

And when I tell him to stop he gives me some crap like "you read that on the internet" or "stop believing everything you hear" or "you're young and stupid stop"

 

You probably shouldn't care so much about politics anyway. Political ideology and rhetoric create voters' opinions, not the other way around.

[Kobold King he/him]

Note for all of you: "You heard it on the internet" is an ad fontem fallacy. "Ad fontem" means "to the source," and refers to an argument that attacks the source of an opposing point of view rather than its logical merit.

 

As should be needless to say, this is completely illogical and a terrible argument. A good argument is a good argument, whether you heard it from a respected logician or a magical talking seagull in a sombrero. If your parents claim that your opinion is invalid, then remind them that they are indulging in the ad fontem fallacy. Hearing their arguments named, dissected, and analyzed to the deaths disarms the illogically minded. They lose the intellectual high ground, forcing them to either retreat and rethink their position or resort to anger.

 

Either way, naming an ad fontem fallacy when you hear it will drastically change the argument and inform your opponent that you're not an intellect to be brushed off lightly.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

Oh, I have some tricks up my sleeve to combat this invasion! They mostly involve dinosaurs, lasers and rock n' roll!

So do I. It involves ponies. Lots, and lots, of ponies.

 

Yeah, I know. Its just. Gah. I just got so annoyed at dinner like. Because you turn on the news and politics and ~election~

On a side note, I have animation uil coming up in January and I'm pumped about to get started.

Also my college english class is letting us do a digital narrative for that too and I have three weeks to make an animation for it if I want to. Which I will. I'm already storyboarding and the project hasn't even been assigned. Professor said I could do an animation tho so I'm doing it

3 weeks for 3 minutes let's GO get HYPE

 

 

You have an animatic yet?

[ThirdGen]

Ad fontem... a nice term.  I like it.

 

Lark, I have good news and bad news.  Good news is you don't have to impress them or change them.  They have held their views long enough that they're deeply entrenched.  External persuasion, for the most part, only works to move someone's opinion slightly.  For someone to make a major change to their views, they have to own it as their decision.

 

Bad news is it's on you to try and prevent them.  The young and searching are the ones who are really up for grabs.

[Mistrunner]

 

Sorry, Twi, Lark, hope everything gets better.

 

PSA: Not all conservatives are evil, heartless beasts! This doesn't have anything to do with what someone here said- it's just that I have a friend or two who seem to think that. And it gets on my nerves. Especially when my friend or I say something that has nothing to do with politics and he says "This coming from a conservative." He's fun when you talk about things that don't relate to politics. But it's hard.

 

I just wish everybody would get along.

 

Edit: Aw man, I missed the conversation about Emperor's New Groove!

Edited September 2, 2015 by Mistrunner

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Ad fontem... a nice term.  I like it.

 

Lark, I have good news and bad news.  Good news is you don't have to impress them or change them.  They have held their views long enough that they're deeply entrenched.  External persuasion, for the most part, only works to move someone's opinion slightly.  For someone to make a major change to their views, they have to own it as their decision.

 

Bad news is it's on you to try and prevent them.  The young and searching are the ones who are really up for grabs.

 

If it makes you feel any better, both of your political views are basically just products of your respective environments.

 

My earlier post was a bit too dismissive, I guess, but I think you need to know that if your political ideology matches up pretty closely with one side of the aisle or the other, it's probably because of recursive thinking. There's a brilliant piece written by Mark Twain, Corn Pone Opinions (don't worry it's short,) that explores this phenomenon.

 

The first major point of the thing is that we humans like to think like other humans. We follow the majority opinion, subconsciously, because: A- It makes us feel accepted, and repeating an opinion shared by most members of the group you commonly associate with draws respect from them, and B- We sort of associate the majority opinion with the correct one. This first point has more to do with fads and fashion than it does with politics, but you do see some of it. It explains why groups (or states) with a strong political affiliation tend to become more radical than those who don't.

 

The second (and probably more relevant) point is that most of our opinions tend to be those of people we respect or give credibility to. I do this all the time when I read movie reviews. Whether I've seen it before or after I read the review (spoilers. meh), it changes the whole experience for me. I just sort of assume that the guy is right because he's got a degree in Movie Critic-ing or something. With politics, this source is usually either parents (obviously not a thing with you,) friends (sometimes... If you think they're really smart or something,) demagogues (this one is rather one-sided. As Clemens explains, we tend to ignore or trivialize articles and stories that disagree with our established opinion, whether it's a radical or moderate version of that ideology,) and celebrities (seeing as you're apparently a young liberal coming from a conservative background, I would assume that this is where you get most of your opinions from. It's not that it's coming directly from the celebrities [who cares what Kim Kardashian thinks about tax brackets anyway, right?] It comes from the media they produce. Hollywood is extremely liberal, and I'm sure you've noticed the political bias in shows like "Parks and Rec" or "30 Rock.")

 

I'm not accusing you of having a sponge-like mind that stupidly absorbs all biased information that enters it. Heck, I used to consider myself a "fiscal conservative" before I figured the whole thing out, and I still tend to carry those opinions even after I know where they actually come from. Mark Twain explains the whole thing better than me, so I strongly suggest reading his thing.

 

It's just that whenever someone identifies themselves with a certain prearranged ideology, I get sort of skeptical. Lots of people believe that the reason Conservatives and Liberals think so differently is because there are just two different ways of seeing the world, even to the point where some have tried to prove it scientifically. Weirdly, some experiments have come back with positive results (I don't buy it. The experiments were done in a very inconclusive way,) but the proof against that, I think, is that the ideologies don't even match up depending on whose politics you're looking at! In Europe, to summarize the entire political ideology in a nutshell, liberals are pro-business and pro-"humanities" while in the US, liberals are anti-business and pro-"humanities," and vice-versa with conservatives. Also, you can see it in the way pro- and anti- war stances change simply to defend the current president. Back in WWI and all the way through the Vietnam War, Republicans were "anti-war." Now, because of the criticism Bush received for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, they flip-flopped to become the "pro-war" position. The same thing happened with Civil Rights.

 

Ultimately, neither party actually has the right solution to any issue. Stances have more to do with recursive thinking than actual logic or necessity. Republicans don't like Obama, so they don't like "Obamacare." Democrats don't like big business, so they empower unions to the point of ridiculousness. A supermajority on either side makes for some royally stupid decisions. That's just what happens in a two-party system.

 

And you can forget about objective decision-making (which is the ideal way to choose policy.) That only happens when we're lucky enough to find someone legitimately intelligent through the lottery that is the presidential race (Congress has no free thought, so they don't count.) Your individual opinion doesn't matter either. Nobody up there cares. Moderate or radical, your vote is the same. Whether you pick and choose which stances you take on issues, your vote is the same. Whether you qualify your position (saying, for example, that you think the Affordable Care Act should be revised to reflect some of the better-functioning health care systems some states have created as alternatives but don't think it should be brutally erased in a frenzy of sectarianism,) your vote is exactly the same as those goobers on your side of the aisle you're ashamed to even be associated with (you know who I'm talking about.) A two-party system is terribly depersonalizing, isn't it?

 

By the way: Emperor's New Groove. Love it.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

 

Sorry, Twi, Lark, hope everything gets better.

 

PSA: Not all conservatives are evil, heartless beasts! This doesn't have anything to do with what someone here said- it's just that I have a friend or two who seem to think that. And it gets on my nerves. Especially when my friend or I say something that has nothing to do with politics and he says "This coming from a conservative." He's fun when you talk about things that don't relate to politics. But it's hard.

 

I just wish everybody would get along.

 

Edit: Aw man, I missed the conversation about Emperor's New Groove!

 

I think of politics and how they cause fights in terms of Hogwarts Houses. 

 

Gryffindors believe that right and wrong are instinctive, and that knowing the difference is as much a gut reaction as it is cognitive knowledge. While this can be—and often is—useful when difficult moral decisions must be made, it's storming annoying to argue with. Although clear-cut evidence can persuade them otherwise, when it comes to opinions, there's often no evidence available. 

 

Slytherins put the people they care about first. They care very deeply about these people, and this connection doesn't necessarily mean they're unfriendly to others, but if one of their people needs them, they're gone. While Slytherins make extremely loyal friends and allies, if that loyalty is channeled toward a political party….good luck arguing with them, because you'll need it. 

 

Hufflepuffs do, like Gryffindors, value right and wrong; but they define it more in terms of helping and hurting people. If a bit of rhetoric advocates harming others, even indirectly, for a good cause, then Hufflepuffs will most likely decide that it wasn't a good cause after all. They tend to shy away from direct political debate, though that doesn't mean they won't argue for their chosen side. 

 

Ravenclaws believe truth is something to be found. Although they can and do fall on all sides of the ideological spectrum, they are less likely to be adamant about it and more likely to be continually seeking out evidence on both sides before making a statement. This doesn't always mean they're open-minded, however, as a Ravenclaw's truth-seeking can be used solely to find arguments in favor of their personal views. 

 

When it comes to politics, I believe most pundits and politicians are Gryffindors and Slytherins. Fiercely loyal to one party, one ideology, or another; so certain that what they believe is true; so unwilling to consider that they may be wrong—those two Houses dominate the political landscape, and the media encourages everyone in the spotlight to adopt the worst traits of their Houses. Gryffindors and Slytherins could be working together, across party lines, to fulfill their shared goals of minimizing harm and fostering acceptance, but instead the media encourages their catfights. 

 

Now, this isn't to say Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are innocent. I believe many journalists fall into one of those two Houses, with Ravenclaws using their research skills to find only evidence that supports their own views; while Hufflepuffs make strong, impassioned arguments as to why the opposite political party is ruining the state/country/planet for the next generation and making everyone miserable in the meantime. As I said before, the media and everything about the modern political system encourages all House members to adopt their worst traits. 

 

The best way to combat this? Open-mindedness. I used to hold nearly identical views to my parents', but when I began considering that maybe some of the liberal arguments shouldn't be discounted just because they came from liberals, that was when I began seeing more flaws in conservative ideology. There are flaws in liberal ideology too, and libertarian ideology, and every other form of ideology there is. No one is going to see the world with perfect clarity, which is why we need each other to see things as they are.

Edited September 2, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Mistrunner]

May I take a moment to recognize how storming awesome Twi and Kobold are? Here we have the two people with the highest rep and I believe post count. And they're storming amazing.

Twi is a regular on the Bad Day thread and has helped me feel better whenever I post there. She's insanely creative and gave me about ten possibilities when I pleaded for help with a story. Kobold is an amazing, imaginative writer that's no less kind than Twi. He started Creation Daily and let's not forget the hilarity that ensues whenever one of them posts.

What I'm trying to say here is that neither of them are just shallow, post something kinda funny and attempt to collect upvotes people. They're awesome.

Kudos to you guys. You're awesome.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

The best way to combat this? Open-mindedness. I used to hold nearly identical views to my parents', but when I began considering that maybe some of the liberal arguments shouldn't be discounted just because they came from liberals, that was when I began seeing more flaws in conservative ideology. There are flaws in liberal ideology too, and libertarian ideology, and every other form of ideology there is. No one is going to see the world with perfect clarity, which is why we need each other to see things as they are.

 

Well, personally, I think the entire way we go about doing politics is just wrong. On a one-on-one basis, humans can be very intelligent. By extension of that logic, you'd think that if you put a hundred people into a room and asked for a reasonable solution to the energy crisis, you'd get a great answer. You wouldn't.

 

Humans = smart. Human systems = dumb.

 

Mobs are human systems. Mobs are dumb. Nation-States are human systems. Nation-States are dumb. Corporations are human systems. Corporations are (usually) dumb.

 

I'm bad at explaining ideas, so that's all I'll say about that. I'm not going to get into the multiple examples and almost unfailing patterns throughout history that've led me to this conclusion, and I'm definitely not going to get into the implications that this has for Democracy as a system of government (though actually, my opinion is that since idiocy is impossible to escape anyway, you might as well have a system of government that makes that idiocy less efficient, right?)

 

Political parties are human systems. They're driven forward by collective opinion, aka recursive thinking. The "political issues" we see everywhere are basically just products of these systems. One demagogue associated with a party says one thing, and the other party will almost unfailingly take the opposite stance. That's how issues are made. 

 

 

You want an example? The controversy over new Voter Registration Laws. I'm not even sure if I have to explain that one...

 

Yes, the rhetoric is very divisive, but in the end, most of consists of things that have no real affect on the country. What actually matters is the long-term stuff. Real stuff (at least, real stuff for our American Sanderfans out there.) Getting away from our dependence on oil. Finding an alternative to spending half a trillion dollars a year on getting flak for being the world's police force. Balancing our trade deficit by bringing back US manufacturing. Education, maybe? The funny thing is that these are all partisan issues, but they're not talked about nearly as much as everything else.

 

But no one up there cares, I guess.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Mckeedee123

[Kestrel she/her]

Instead of replying to everything individually, you all get upvotes from me.

That was an incredible read, and basically I agree with everything. People will think the way they're raised. I've started to branch from that, but I've taken in things from the world around me. Believe me, I've evaluated every side now, because I've heard arguments from hardcore conservatives (my family) and hardcore liberals (tumblr).

Even before I had a tumblr, I was noticing his hate, and it made me really nervous. Like one of the kids on the robotics team was trans, and he would refer to him at home with slurs regarding it, and although I didn't understand the gender stuff at the time it still made me sick.

But anyway, half of the stuff he says is also taken right from the internet, so I'm tempted to call him out on that. Its interesting to me because we tend to hang around people with the same views, for example all of his facebook friends are all conservatives, so they spread that amongst themselves, tumblr is highly liberal so they spread that. I normally get my news from tumblr, or mainly, if I go on tumblr and see that something has happened, I'll go and look up the whole story regarding it, rather than just going along with it.

Edited September 2, 2015 by LarkoftheRiver

[The Sovereign]

Instead of replying to everything individually, you all get upvotes from me.

That was an incredible read...

 

A little later today when work slows down a bit... [(Does the world not realize that it is Wednesday morning here on the East coast of the US and it really doesn't need to be so busy... everyone just chill out for like 2 hours, let me drink like four cups of coffee and awaken, then come back with the 11 million things you have for me to do... X_X) <-holy run on Batman!] ...I will reply to Twi's political/Hogwarts comment as I think it brings a lot of very interesting points to the table.

Anyways, As Lark said, the last couple of pages of this threat have been an excellent read, I am always generally impressed with amount of time and thought that goes into so many of the posts on here. Well done!

Edited September 2, 2015 by Iron Eyes

[Mestiv he/him]

Little comic to keep the randomness of this thread going

 

[Left he/him]

Little comic to keep the randomness of this thread going

 

 

Except that the dirt looks like mud, which has Water and that wouldn't exactly be good would it?